CONSIDERATION. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.] [SECOND NIGHT.]

HC Deb 27 July 1881 vol 263 cc1970-2008

Further Proceeding on Consideration, as amended, resumed.

Clause 7 (Determination by Court of rent of present tenancies).

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

, in moving, in the absence of Mr. PARNELL, to insert, in page 8, line 27, after the word "tenant," the words— Where an application is made by the landlord to the Court under this section in respect of any tenancy the tenant of which alleges that the landlord is an absentee, the Court may refuse to accede to the application if it is satisfied that the absence of the landlord from the estate is of such a character and extent as to disentitle him to an increased rent, said, some persons seemed to imagine that the proposal to give discretion to the Court had been rather sprung upon the House by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell). The question of absentee landlords was one of many questions connected with the land tenure of Ireland, which had been discussed over and over again, and introduced into that House repeatedly, but without many beneficial results. As far back as 1819, when a Tory Government was in full vigour, absenteeism had been so great an evil that a Select Committee of this House was appointed to inquire into it. That Committee reported at that time that it was the greatest of all the causes which tended to distress the agricultural prosperity of Ireland. He had seen the speeches of Lord George Bentinck, and this proposal did not go so far as the policy which the Leader of the Conservative Party and the landed interest recommended to be adopted with respect to Ireland in 1846. He hoped the House would, as one means of removing this great evil, draw this distinction between absentee and resident landlords. As a matter of fact, the estates of absentee landlords were those upon which the greatest amount of rack-renting existed; and he thought it was high time that something should be done to stop this, and thus to improve the condition of the labouring population of Ireland.

Amendment proposed, In page 8, line 27, after the word "tenant," to insert the words "Where an application is made by the landlord to the Court under this section in respect of any tenancy, the tenant of which alleges that the landlord is an absentee, the Court may refuse to accede to the application if it is satisfied that the absence of the landlord from the estate is of such a character and extent as to disentitle him to an increased rent."—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, it was impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment; but in making that statement he hoped the hon. Member, and the House generally, would not consider that the Government were at all unaware or forgetful of the great evil of the extent of absenteeism which existed in Ireland, and he supposed there was a general opinion that anything that could be done legitimately to check absenteeism would be an advantage. But it was almost impossible to do it by direct legislation. They might hope, by getting Ireland into a better condition, to induce landlords to remain more in that country, and perform their duties with regard to property more thoroughly; but that was a matter that could be furthered a good deal more outside the House than in it. He thought, in fact, that the Amendment itself showed the difficulty of checking absenteeism by direct legislation. The Bill provided that the Court should fix a fair rent, and the hon. Member proposed that if the landlord wished the Court to fix it, it was not to do so because he was an absentee. He did not see why the fact of a landlord being an absentee should disentitle him to a fair rent for his holding. According to the Amendment the Court was to be satisfied that the absence of the landlord was to be of such a character and extent as to disentitle him to an increased rent. Those words clearly proved how impossible it would be to work the Amendment. It gave the Court no directions or guidance as to what should be the extent and character of absenteeism. It was an Amendment which the Government could not accept.

MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD

remarked, that absenteeism was, undoubtedly, a great evil in Ireland. So long ago as 1846 a former Leader of the Conservative Party (Lord George Bentinck) proposed that there should be two poor rates levied in Ireland, one on the occupiers, and the other on the owners of land who did not reside in Ireland for a certain period of the year. That was a definite proposition, and it proceeded upon a principle which he did not observe in the Amendment now before the House. He agreed very much with the remarks that had fallen from the Chief Secretary. It could not be contended that because a landlord was an absentee he should, therefore, not be in a position to obtain a fair rent. That was not, in his opinion, a just proposition. Irish absenteeism was an evil, and an evil which it was sought to get at by legislation. He believed it could only be got at by the compulsory purchase of estates of absentee proprietors. But, be that as it might, he could not consent to an Amendment that would leave to the Court a vague and indefinite reference which it would be impossible for the Commissioners to interpret in a satisfactory manner.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, he was of opinion that the Amendment was both wise and reasonable. Upwards of £6,000,000 left Ireland annually through absentee landlords; and if the Amendment was adopted he believed it would have the effect of diminishing this drain on the resources of the country. The remedy suggested by the Amendment was both useful and just. Indirectly it properly enforced residence as one of the conditions of the exercise of the rights conferred by the Bill on the entire land- lord class. It was not unreasonable that it should be required for the protection of tenants that the proprietor should, before he demanded an increase of rent, be bound to show of his own knowledge the claim was just. How was it possible that an absentee landlord, who demanded an increased rent, could tell whether the rent being paid was just or not, or that the tenant was able to pay it? Every endeavour should be made to discourage the management of Irish estates by agents, who were the most detested class in Irish society, and to encourage the personal supervision of landlords, if landlords were to have a separate existence. He hoped the Amendment would be pressed to a division.

MR. SCHREIBER

said, that, considering the quarter from which it came, the Amendment struck him as the most wonderful proposal which had yet been made in connection with that most wonderful Bill. As far as he had been able to understand the policy of the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) in the matter of Irish landlords, it had been, it still was, and it would be in the future, to make Ireland too hot to hold them. With that view an agitation had been set on foot—the parent of this Bill; and what that agitation aimed at that Bill would undoubtedly facilitate. Its effect would be to increase absenteeism, and generally to leave Ireland "to stew in her own gravy." In these circumstances, was it not amazing to hear the hon. Member come forward with a proposal to punish landlords for doing that which it was the direct tendency of that Bill to promote? He (Mr. Schreiber) remembered, when Lord Palmerston represented the borough of Tiverton, a certain butcher, of the name of Rowcliffe, used to put him yearly to the question; and, on the occasion of one of his visits, asked him why he did not come to see his constituents oftener? "How can my hon. friend," said Lord Palmerston—he always called him his "hon. friend"—"How can my hon. friend expect me to come down oftener unless he makes himself a little more agreeable when I do come?" Well, mutato nomine, the story was told of Irish Members and Irish landlords. If hon. Gentlemen from Ireland would only make themselves a little more agreeable to landlords, both in that House and out of it, they would have less cause to complain of absenteeism in the future.

MR. DAWSON

contended that the opponents of the Amendment showed by their opposition that they were unaware of the evils of absenteeism in Ireland. In an article in The Quarterly Review of 1825, he found that at that time the non-residence of Irish landlords was regarded as the greatest evil afflicting the country. Other countries exported their produce and received the ordinary exchange of commerce. Ireland exported hers to the extent, at that time, of £4,000,000 per annum, and all she received in return was rent receipts. The Conservative Party, and, indeed, all Parties, had lamented the evils of absenteeism. The great landlords always resided out of the country, and only the struggling proprietors remained. The country was forced into a sham state of society—it was the agents and not the land proprietors who filled the high official and social positions in Ireland, and it was their interested and hardhearted representations as to the state of the country that were accepted as accurate. The connection of Ireland with England was productive of many shams, but that was one of the worst. Taking his own county (Limerick)—where were the owners of the soil? Lord Leconfield, Lord Lansdowne, and others, who owned practically the whole county—none of them were resident, none of them were helping to push back from the towns of Southern Ireland that tide of decay which, under English supremacy, was advancing upon them. The interposition of the agent between the landlord and the people was the inevitable cause of much evil. He regarded the restoration to Ireland of her Legislature as the one great solution of the question. Then the law where it was now weak would be firm; the administration of justice, which was now conducted under the taint of suspicion, would be trusted by the people. Following this, every social inducement would come naturally. He would not impose a direct tax upon absentee landlords; but he would deprive them of the benefits under this Bill to which those who resided in the country were justly entitled.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he could quite understand the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) having brought forward this Motion, as a pro- test in favour of principles which he thought it material to bring to the recollection of the House; and he had before confessed that, to a certain extent, he sympathized with the hon. Member in his general views on the subject of absenteeism. Were it a question on which, in the first place, they were prepared with a statutory definition, and with respect to which, in the second place, they had matured their views, and had considered the precise method in which the absentee landlord was to be dealt with, he could quite understand it; but he submitted that this was not a time when they could with advantage discuss either the creation of a separate Legislature in Ireland, or of the questions involved in this sub-section. The real question was, whether it was necessary to delay the progress of this Bill by a discussion which really must be purely of the character which was called academical in contradistinction to discussions which were practical. It was plain that the sub-section bristled at every point with difficulties, and with questions of the most serious nature, which required very lengthened examination. Was it possible that there could be, in the present circumstances, any fruit from that examination? Was it possible they could derive any benefit from the prolongation of this debate at all corresponding to the inconvenience which attended further delay in the progress of the Bill? He did not at all exclude a discussion of this kind on the proper occasion; but it certainly did not enter into the essence of the Bill. The questions raised were questions of policy, and he was bound to say that he did not think the distinction between imposing on the absentee a tax, and withholding from him a benefit, was a distinction that could be maintained. He denied that increased rent was always an advantage; it might be simple justice. The question was much too wide and too complex to be discussed in an Amendment on the Report, and he earnestly hoped the judgment of the House would not at once be taken upon it.

MR. PARNELL

said, he had no intention of prolonging the debate; but he might be allowed to say that the Amendment was of a much more practical character than the Prime Minister seemed to suppose. In fact, he thought it the most practical way in which the question of absenteeism had been at- tempted to be dealt with in the present Bill, or in the various attempts that had been made to deal with the question since 1819. The Irish Members had brought the question forward over and over again since 1819; but they had been always met by the same reply as that which the Prime Minister had just given—namely, that the question was undoubtedly one deserving attention; that absenteeism was a serious evil, but the Government did not see their way to grapple with it. The Chief Secretary was wrong in saying he did not desire that absentee landlords should have a fair rent. What he desired to prevent was that they should have an increase of rent. In other words, that where an absentee landlord compounded for the discharge of his duties as a resident landlord by allowing his tenants to hold farms at low rents, he should not be permitted to come in and take advantage of the special provisions of this Bill, which provided an easy road for such persons to have their rents raised, and, at the same time, escape from the odium that formerly attached to the serving of notices to quit. Instead of incurring that odium they would take advantage of the royal road provided by the Prime Minister under Clause 7. The House would bear in mind that he (Mr. Parnell) asked nothing more than that Clause 7 should be restored to its original state, the state in which it was when the Bill was read a second time. The clause had been amended in Committee so as to give power to any landlord who desired to increase his rent to apply to a Court to have a judicial rent fixed. He was, therefore, fairly entitled to ask—and he did not think it was a large request coming from him—that landlords so especially circumstanced as absentees should be exempted from the Amendment which was introduced by the Government—an Amendment which would take away the odium from rent-raising, because the landlord formerly had to go through the ordeal of serving a notice to quit. He thought this was not fair, and he asked that discretion should be given to the Court to take into account the nature, character, and extent of the absence of landlords when they were asked to decide whether those landlords were entitled to an increase of rent or not. The most important question of deciding what was a fair rent had been left to the Court—why not also this? He knew very well that if this Amendment was agreed to here the territorial Lords and Irish Peers in "another place" would rise up as one man against it. There was not the slightest chance of carrying the Amendment there. But that was a matter with which they ought not to concern themselves. It was their duty to bring forward reasonable propositions, and throw upon "another place" the responsibility of rejecting them.

MR. MACFARLANE

said, it was admitted on all hands that the evil of absenteeism should be dealt with; but he thought that if the Amendment were adopted, the absentee landlord, who took a kindly interest in his tenants and exacted low rents, would be unable to raise his rent, while the rack-renting absentee landlord would suffer nothing. If, however, the hon. Member went to a division he would vote with him, on the principle that absenteeism should be taxed in some way or another.

MR. DALY

said, he thought the effect of this indirect penalty of absenteeism would be an inducement to absentee landlords to sell their estates to resident owners, who would administer the property with more advantage to the country.

MR. T. D. SULLIVAN

said, that the only fault he had to find with the Amendment was that it merely touched the fringe of a very important question. A Parliamentary Return granted in August, 1866, showed that absentees drew from Ireland one-quarter of the total rent of the whole country. He thought this Bill should impose a penalty on absentee landlords in order to mark the sense of Parliament and of the country of their conduct. The total drain by absentees was nearly £2,500,000; and with this and excessive taxation, and other drains upon them, how was it possible Ireland could thrive or be contented? He trusted that this most serious grievance would at no distant day be dealt with by Government and the House in a large and comprehensive manner.

Question put.

The House divided: —Ayes 32; Noes 115: Majority 83.—(Div. List, No. 337.)

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, that, in accordance with an understanding come to in Committee respecting the landlord's purchase of a tenancy, the value of which had been ascertained at the time of the fixing of the judicial rent, he begged to move to amend the clause by adding at the end of sub-section 5 the words— But subject to deduction in respect of any damage caused by dilapidation of buildings or deterioration of soil since the time at which the value was so fixed.

Amendment proposed, In page 8, line 40, after "fixed," insert "but subject to deduction in respect of any damage caused by dilapidation of buildings or deterioration of soil since the time at which the value was so fixed."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HEALY

said, the Amendment was utterly unnecessary and contrary to common sense, for the Court would necessarily be assumed to make allowance for dilapidations. He could only regard it as a concession to the Tory opposition raised on behalf of the landlord party in the House. He only wished the Government had displayed equal sensitiveness for the tenant's interests.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 2, to leave out the words "except during," in order to insert the word "before,"—(Mr. Warton,) —instead thereof.

Question, "That the words 'except during' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

MR. HEALY

, in proposing to add the following sub-section to Clause 7— During the last twelve months of any current statutory term, or at any time after the expiration thereof, and during the continuance of the tenancy, the tenant for the time being may, whether said statutory term was created on application to the Court under this section, or by increase of rent under the third section of this Act, apply to the Court to fix the fair rent to be paid for his holding, and the Court shall have power to deal with such application, and shall deal with it accordingly, as if such tenant had been empowered to make such application under this section, but had not previously made any such application. The judicial rent for any such further statutory term shall not exceed the judicial rent for the next preceding statutory term unless in respect of capital expended by the landlord on such holding since the commencement of such preceding term, or unless such holding has, independently of any im- provements effected by the tenant thereon, increased in value since the commencement of the said preceding statutory term, said, he was desirous of guarding the tenant with the same care as had been displayed in protecting the rights of the landlord; and with regard to the second part of the Amendment he wished to see it laid down that unless the landlord had made improvements during the last term, or some unearned increment had arisen, such as the uprising of a new town, or the making of a railway or canal, there should be no increasement of the existing rent. Why, he asked, should the landlord have the power to increase the rent unless there had been some such ground for it? This question would also, in his opinion, include that of a rise in the price of produce. The Government had adopted a needless Amendment in favour of the landlord, and he did not see why the Irish Members should not do everything they could on behalf of the tenants, and insist on the insertion of the Amendment, which he now begged to move.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 3, after the word "term," to insert the words—"During the last twelve months of any current statutory term, or at any time after the expiration thereof, and during the continuance of the tenancy, the tenant for the time being may, whether said statutory term was created on application to the Court under this section, or by increase of rent under the third section of this Act, apply to the Court to fix the fair rent to be paid for his holding, and the Court shall have power to deal with such application, and shall deal with it accordingly, as if such tenant had been empowered to make such application under this section, but had not previously made any such application. The judicial rent for any such further statutory term shall not exceed the judicial rent for the next preceding statutory term unless in respect of capital expended by the landlord on such holding since the commencement of such preceding term, or unless such holding has, independently of any improvements effected by the tenant thereon, increased in value since the commencement of the said preceding statutory term."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, the reason why the Government inserted the last Amendment was because there was no discretion at all in the matter left to the Court. With regard to the first part of this Amendment, the apprehensions which the hon. Member entertained were, he submitted, entirely groundless. The Amendment, in his opinion, was unnecessary; and it was not desirable, by the adoption of words of this kind, to cast doubts upon what was absolutely clear. With regard to the last part of the Amendment, it was, he might almost say, absurd to suppose that under the Bill the tenant's improvements could be taken into account against him in fixing a fair rent.

MR. BIGGAR

said, it would be very desirable if the Government would make it perfectly clear that no increase of rent should be imposed in respect of any of the tenant's improvements.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, according to the full belief of the Government, it was absolutely impossible under the Bill to bring in the consideration of the tenant's improvements so that any portion of the rent might be charged upon them. He would go even a step further, and say that if any hon. Member would show that under any portion of the Bill there was any reason to conclude that he was wrong in that belief, the Government would be prepared to insert words amending the Bill in that respect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HEALY

said, that the reason why he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment was that he might move another to the following effect: — That the judicial rent for any further statutory term shall not exceed the judicial rent for the preceding statutory term in respect of any improvements made by the tenant. He thought the Prime Minister had met the matter fairly, and agreed with him that it was not possible to put a finger on any part of the Bill that would afford ground for the conclusion that a judicial rent could be leviable on the tenant's improvements; but, at the same time, it was to be remembered that so far the Courts had always acted on landlord traditions, and had interpreted the law on their side; and, therefore, he thought it very desirable that the intentions of the Government should be made clear.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 3, after the word "term," to insert the words "The judicial rent for any further statutory term shall not exceed the judicial rent for the preceding statutory term in respect of any improvements made by the tenant."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, if there were occasions for providing against taking into account the tenant's improvements in the question of rent it ought to be under a stronger proposal than the one just submitted, and one that must apply to all occasions on which rent was fixed. If the Amendment were withdrawn, his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland would be prepared to introduce words that would meet the case.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

begged to propose the following sub-section: — No rent shall be made payable in any proceeding under this Act in respect of any improvements made by the tenant or his predecessor in title. He hoped these words would, at least, remove all apprehension.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, at end, to add the following sub-section—"No rent shall be made payable in any proceeding under this Act in respect of any improvements made by the tenant or his predecessor in title."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. GIBSON

said, the Amendment came on him by surprise, and he was not sure whether the words chosen by the Government were the best calculated to effect their professed object. This matter should have been dealt with earlier, when the Court was asked to determine what was a judicial rent. He thought these words were somewhat loose, and possibly open to misconstruction. That was the first time they were put in manuscript. The Government were dealing with a most important clause. They, at the last moment, proposed words governing the whole clause, and they must be solely answerable. He thought the words proposed by his right hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote), in reference to the same subject at an earlier stage of the Bill, were better chosen, but he repudiated all responsibility for the present action of the Government.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, the Amendment alluded to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gibson) had been rejected, on the ground that by imputation it tended to the dangerous conclusion that the tenant had no interest in his holding except as regarded his improvements.

MR. BRYCE

thought the Amendment now proposed excellent, and one which would give great satisfaction.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

said, he firmly believed that there were no words in the Bill which would give such satisfaction and comfort to the tenants as these words. Many parts of the measure they would not be able to understand; but these were words which would be learned by heart, and which would become household words, as governing the tenant's interest in this matter of improvements.

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. LALOR

said, the Amendment which stood in his name on the Paper pointed out the consideration to be borne in mind by the Court in fixing a judicial rent after the expiration of the first or any succeeding statutory term. He proposed that the rent should be determined upon an average of the value of the crops on the land during the then expired statutory term. His Amendment, which he now begged to move, detailed at length the means by which this average was to be ascertained.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 3, after the word "term," to insert the words— Where the tenant of a present tenancy, the rent of which has been fixed as a judicial rent, either by the Court or by mutual agreement between landlord and tenant, applies to the Court for an alteration of rent at the termination of the statutory term, the Court shall have power to fix a rent for the next statutory term: Provided, That in fixing such rent the Court shall not take into account the present state of the farm at the time being, but only take into account the prices of the farm produce, hereinafter designated, at the time when the first judicial rent was fixed, as compared with the average prices of the same description of farm produce during the whole period of the latest previous statutory term; And if the value of the farm has decreased in proportion and in consequence of the fall in prices of the same description of farm produce, hereinafter designated, then the difference between the present value of the farm and the rent fixed for the first statutory term shall be ascertained, and half the amount so ascertained shall be deducted from the present rent, and the rent so fixed shall be the judicial rent during the next statutory term. But if the prices of the same description of farm produce, hereinafter designated, shall have increased, and in consequence the value of the farm has proportionately increased, then half the amount of such increase shall be added to the present rent, and the rent so fixed shall be the judicial rent during the next statutory term; And at the end of each succeeding statutory term for the future, the tenant of every present tenancy, and the tenant of every future tenancy shall, on application to the Court, have the judicial rent fixed during the ensuing statutory term on the same principle and in the same way as in the foregoing sub-section; For the purpose of fixing in future, at the end of each statutory term, what shall be a fair rent for a tenancy during the next succeeding statutory term of said tenancy, the Land Commission shall appoint a competent person, who shall be an officer under the control and direction of said Land Commission, to ascertain what has been the average wholesale prices in Dublin of the following farm products during every week of the time between the first of May, one thousand eight hundred and eighty, and the first of May, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-one, namely: —

• Wheat at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Oats at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Barley at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Beef at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Butter at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Mutton at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Wool at per stone of fourteen pounds.
• Pork at per stone of fourteen pounds.

And the prices so ascertained shall be registered in a book for that purpose, and preserved in the office of the Land Commission, and a copy of the same shall be forwarded to, and preserved in, each of the County Land Courts of Ireland; And it shall be the duty of the said officer of the Land Commission to ascertain during every week for the future, commencing from the first day of May, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-one, what may be the average wholesale prices in Dublin of the afore-named farm products; And the prices so ascertained shall be registered in a book for that purpose, and preserved in the office of the Lamp Commission; And at the end of every succeeding year. from the day on which the first entry shall be made, the average of such prices shall be ascertained for the entire period of such year, and entered at the end of each year's account; And a certified copy of the entries in said book shall be forwarded to, and preserved for use in, each of the County Land Courts in Ireland. Provided, That in fixing a rent according to the prices of the hereinbefore mentioned farm products, the Courts shall distinguish between a holding which is a mixed agricultural farm (partly grazing and partly tillage) and a holding which is com- monly designated by the term 'feeding land,' or, in other words, land which is chiefly used as grass land for fattening cattle, or feeding cows for dairy purposes; In fixing rent for mixed agricultural holdings the Court shall be guided by the prices of the farm products hereinbefore mentioned (that is to say): wheat, oats, barley, beef, butter, mutton, wool, and pork; In fixing rent for a holding which is 'feeding land,' that is to say, land which is chiefly used for fattening cattle and feeding milch cows, the Court shall only take into consideration the prices of beef and butter; In fixing rent the Court shall have the power to designate the holding either as a mixed agricultural holding,' or as 'feeding land,' as the case may be, or the Court may otherwise designate the holding, and fix the rent in accordance with the prices of the farm produce usually raised from the land composing such holding, and, in the opinion of the Court, suitable to its natural capabilities, and included in the hereinbefore mentioned farm products."—(Mr. Lalor.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he hoped that the hon. Member would spare them the necessity of considering the Amendment, which, however, he acknowledged dealt with a very important matter. He did not understand how a Court on which devolved the interpretation of the words just adopted could possibly take into consideration, in fixing a judicial rent, improvements made by the tenant. When the question was brought before it of fixing a rent for the second or any statutory term, the Court would naturally take as its starting point the judicial rent already existing; and the Court would distinctly throw upon the party, be he either landlord or tenant, desiring to have that judicial rent altered, the burden of proving his case for the alteration. It could, therefore, be the duty of the landlord or tenant to be in a position to prove clearly what the improvements were in regard to which the Court was not to enhance the rent. He could not but think that the security given by the Attorney General for Ireland's Amendment would be sufficient. He objected to saddling the Court with minute directions, both on account of the difficulty of fixing upon those directions and of the likelihood that they would afterwards find they had committed great errors of omission in relation to cases not present to their mind at that time. He believed that the Court would consider all matters bearing upon the point more freely, more satisfactorily, and more justly, if it was not bound in the manner required by the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. BRYCE

moved, in page 9, line 3, to add, at the end, the following subsection:— Where during the last twelve months of a current statutory term, or at any time after the expiry of the same, an application is made to the Court to fix a judicial rent, the Court, in determining whether any and what variety shall be made in the amount of the rent from the amount at which it had been previously fixed, shall have regard to any rise or fall (as the case may be) in the prices of the agricultural produce of the district and of live stock estimated upon an average of the five years last preceding and to any rise or fall (as the case may be) in the wages of labour or otherwise in the cost of production, estimated upon an average of the like period; but the rent shall in no case be increased in respect of any value which may have been added to the holding by any improvements made by the tenant.

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he thought there was no necessity for the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. PARNELL

begged formally to move the following Amendment for the purpose of explaining why he did not propose to proceed with it. It was— Where during the currency or after the close of a statutory term an application is made to the Court to determine a judicial rent, the Court in determining such rent shall consider that the holding has the same producing capacity that it had at the commencement of the statutory term then closing or closed. What he meant to explain was that the Amendment which had just been moved by the Attorney General for Ireland to a very considerable extent carried out the object of his Amendment, as it provided that no rent should be payable in respect of any improvements made by the tenant or his predecessor in title. Under these circumstances, as his object had been to a considerable extent met by the Attorney General for Ireland, he would not move his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Equities to be administered by Court between landlord and tenant).

Amendment proposed, in page 9, line 5, after the word "tenant," to insert the words "or of landlord and tenant jointly."—(Mr. Warton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 (Lease approved by Court during its continuance to exclude provisions of the Act).

MR. GIBSON

(in the absence of Lord JOHN MANNERS) moved in page 9, line 25, after "tenant," to insert the words— And, where such lease is made by a limited owner, as defined by the twenty-sixth section of 'The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870,' the interest of all persons entitled to any estate or interest in the holding subsequent to the estate or interest of such limited owner. The object of the Amendment was to insure that the Court should consider the interest of other persons besides the limited owner and the tenant, and thus to prevent injustice being done to persons who might not be before the Court.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 25, after "tenant," insert "and where such lease is made by a limited owner as defined by the twenty-sixth section of 'The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870,' the interest of all persons entitled to any estate or interest in the holding subsequent to the estate or interest of such limited owner."—(Mr. Gibson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

suggested that the reference to the Act of 1870 should be omitted from the Amendment.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

moved an Amendment, in page 9, line 30, providing that the judicial leases referred to in the latter part of the clause should refer to tenants of present tenancies. The second paragraph of the clause would then read—"At the expiration of the judicial lease made to the tenant of a present tenancy."

Amendment proposed, in page 9, line 30, after "lease," insert "made to the tenant of a present tenancy."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HEALY

regretted that the provisions of the clause were not extended further. It would probably not result in more than a dozen judicial leases in the whole of Ireland.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 (Conditions of fixed tenancy).

On the Motion of Mr. GIBSON (in the absence of Mr. BRODRICK) Amendment made, in page 10, line 3, by inserting, after "tenancy," the words— And as in the case of the landlord who is a limited owner the Court shall approve after considering the interest of all persons entitled to any estate or interest in the holding subsequent to the estate or interest of such limited owner.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, that, in accordance with an understanding arrived at in Committee on the Bill, he begged to move the insertion in page 10, line 7, after "tenant" of the words— The rent on any such re-valuation being such us the Court, after hearing the parties and having regard to the interests of the landlord and tenant respectively, and considering all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district, shall determine to be fair.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GIBSON

said, he protested against some of the words of this Amendment and to the position they occupied, as much as he had done against a part of the original drafting of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12 (Regulations as to sales and applications to Court to fix rent).

MR. BIGGAR

moved to substitute 12 months for six months in the 1st section, with reference to the power of the tenant to sell his tenancy at any time before, but not after, the expiration of six months from the execution of a writ or decree for possession in any ejectment for non-payment of rent, when proceedings were taken by the landlord to compel a tenant to quit his holding. He said the tenant should be allowed more time for making fresh arrangements, and for getting in a solvent condition. He hoped the Government would agree to extend the period with regard to redemption.

Amendment proposed, in page 10, line 16, to leave out the word "six" and insert the word "twelve."—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'six' stand part of the Bill."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, as it was not proposed to alter the general statute law of Ireland by this Bill, and that was what they would be doing if they adopted the Amendment. The clause was already very much in favour of the tenant.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. GIBSON

moved to insert in page 10, line 18, after the word "rent," the following words:— Where such rent is not a judicial rent, and at any time before but not after the expiration of six months from the date of the judgment or decree for possession in an ejectment for nonpayment of rent where such rent is a judicial rent. The Amendment was one which he thought would commend itself to the House. The six months allowed to the tenant for the redemption of his farm under a decree for possession in an ejectment for non-payment of rent had been found a most fruitful source of strife, because the landlord was in possession of his farm for six uncertain months, during which he could make no definite let or work the farm to any advantage. If the country was disturbed, as it had been of late, there was great difficulty experienced in executing the decree, owing to the uncertain date from which the six months commenced to run. No remedies whatever were given to the landlords, and not a solitary provision facilitating the recovery of their rights. He, therefore, now proposed to make a simple and moderate amendment of the law in reference to the redemption period, and to say to the tenant, if he came under the operation of that Bill and obtained a judicial rent and a statutory term, and if he then failed to pay and his landlord brought an ejectment and the tenant did not sell, in that case the redemption period should run from the fixed date when the ejectment decree was pronounced, and not from a precarious date. He hoped the Government would accept his proposal.

Amendment proposed, In page 10, line 18, after the word "rent," to insert the words "where such rent is not a judicial rent, and at any time before but not after the expiration of six months from the date of the judgment or decree for possession in an ejectment for non-payment of rent where such rent is a judicial rent."—(Mr. Gibson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he opposed the Amendment on the same ground as he had objected to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar). He did not propose in that Bill to alter the general law as to ejectment for non-payment of rent. If no new remedies were given to the landlord by the Bill, it was because legislation was required, not in the interest of the landlord, but in the interest of the tenant. The period was now six months from the time when the ejectment was practically enforced; and it would be very inconvenient and a source of much confusion to have two periods applicable to the same tenancy under different circumstances.

Question put, and negatived.

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law) Amendments made in page 11, line 7, after "and," by inserting "in such case;" page 11, line 9, after "application" by inserting— Provided, That proceedings shall not be taken by a landlord to compel a tenant to quit his holding for breach of any statutory condition, save as follows:—

1. "(1.) Where the condition broken is a condition relating to payment of rent, then by ejectment subject to the provisions of the statutes relating to ejectment for nonpayment of rent; and
2. "(2.) Where the condition broken is any other statutory condition, then by ejectment founded on notice to quit."

In page 11, line 36, at end, by inserting as a separate paragraph— The service of a notice to quit, to enforce which no proceedings are taken by the landlord, or the proceedings to enforce which are restrained by the Court, shall not operate to determine the tenancy. In page 11, line 40, by leaving out from "Provided," to "quit," in page 12, line 2.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Contracts inconsistent with Act, how far void).

MR. HEALY

moved, after the word "pounds," to insert "under one landlord." It was merely a verbal Amendment, and he hoped the Government would accept it.

Amendment proposed, in page 12, line 39, after "pounds," insert "under one landlord."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he opposed the Amendment on the ground that it was unnecessary.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 17 (Powers of limited owners).

COLONEL STANLEY

moved, in page 13, line 27, at end of clause, to add the following words:— Provided always, That in the case of any holding subject to mortgages the prescribed notice of any agreement affecting such holding between landlord and tenant, or proceedings affecting such holding under the foregoing provisions of this Act, shall be served upon the mortgagees, and the mortgagees shall be entitled to object to any such agreement or to intervene in such proceedings in the prescribed manner and subject to the prescribed conditions. The Amendment was intended to prevent anything being done behind the back of the mortgagee. He understood the Government were prepared to accept it in principle.

Amendment proposed, In page 13, line 27, after the word "interest," to insert the words—"Provided always, That in the case of any holding subject to mortgages the prescribed notice of any agreement affecting such holding between landlord and tenant, or proceedings affecting such holding under the foregoing provisions of this Act, shall be served upon the mortgagees, and the mortgagees shall be entitled to object to any such agreement or to intervene in such proceedings in the prescribed manner and subject to the prescribed conditions."—(Colonel Stanley.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he was prepared to accept the Amendment in principle; but he considered it required some modification, and therefore moved that it should be amended so as to read— That in the case of any holding subject to mortgage the prescribed notice of any agreement between landlord and tenant for granting a judicial lease or creating a fixed tenancy of such holding under the foregoing provisions of this Act shall be served on the mortgagee, and the mortgagee shall be entitled to intervene in such proceedings in the prescribed manner, and subject to the prescribed conditions.

Amendment (Colonel Stanley) by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment (Mr. Attorney General for Ireland) agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 (Letting for labourers' cottages not to be within the restrictions of Act).

MR. BELLINGHAM

proposed to insert in page 13, line 28, the following words:—"or by the terms of any existing leases," the object being to secure that a letting for labourers' cottages should not be deemed to be a sub-letting within the restrictions of the Act, or a letting prohibited by the Act, or "by the terms of any existing leases."

Amendment proposed, in page 13, line 28, after the word "Act," to insert the words "or by the terms of any existing leases."—(Mr. Bellingham.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, this would be the adoption of a principle which would be new in the Bill. Under the Bill power was taken to quash certain leases on broad grounds; but the Amendment made a suggestion of quite a new kind. It proposed to interfere with leases without quashing them. Such a proposal ought not to be agreed to except upon the strongest grounds, or some very urgent grievance, which had not been shown to exist to any extent.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. GIBSON

proposed, in page 13, line 28, after "Court," insert "after service of the prescribed notice upon the landlord." This would provide that the period of redemption should run from the issue of the process of ejectment, instead of from the date of the execution of the decree. He thought this was but fair to the landlords, of whose interests the Bill was, on the whole, neglectful.

Amendment proposed, In page 13, line 28, after "Court," insert "after service of the prescribed notice upon the landlord."—(Mr. Gibson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, that if the Bill appeared to neglect the landlords it was because they had in the past taken good care of themselves. He declined to accept the Amendment, as it introduced an innovation into the state of the law.

Question put, and negatived.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

moved, in page 13, line 35, to leave out from "Provided" to the end of the clause, and insert— Provided, That the land comprised in each letting shall not exceed half an acre in extent, and that where the holding contains not more than twenty-five acres of tillage land the number of such lettings shall not exceed one; and that where the holding contains more than twenty-five acres of tillage land, but not more than fifty acres of such land, the number of such lettings shall not exceed two; and so in proportion to the acreage of tillage land in the holding after fifty acres. The object of the Amendment was simply to make the views of the Government on the question of the labourers' dwellings perfectly clear.

Amendment proposed, In page 13, line 35, leave out from "provided," to end of Clause, and insert "Provided, That the land comprised in each letting shall not exceed half an acre in extent, and that where the holding contains not more than twenty-five acres of tillage land, the number of such lettings shall not exceed one, and that where the holding contains more than twenty-five acres of tillage land, but not more than fifty acres of such land, the number of such lettings shall not exceed two; and so in proportion to the acreage of tillage land in the holding after fifty acres."—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

, in moving the insertion, at the end of the clause, of the following words:— Where labourers are at present in possession, the labourers or tenants may apply to the Court to fix a fair rent, said, that although the Bill did do something for one class of tenants, he felt it his duty to bring forward this Amendment in the interest of labourers who were now the tenants of cottages, and paid a higher rent for them than they ought. As the Bill dealt with the present tenants of holdings, he did not see why it should not deal with the present labourer tenants.

Amendment proposed, In page 13, line 39, after the word "holding," to insert the words "where labourers are at present in possession, the labourers or tenants may apply to the Court to fix a fair rent"—(Sir Hervey Bruce.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. W. E. FORSTER

hoped the hon. Baronet would not press the Amendment, as the Government could not accept it. This was a Bill for settling the occupation of land between landlord and tenant, and they did not profess by its clauses to meet the labourers' question. They meant, however, to take care that by the action of the landlord or tenant the labourers should not be injured, but, if possible, benefited. The Amendment might, as proposed, go a great deal further.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

supposed it would be useless to persevere with the Amendment, and, therefore, asked leave to withdraw it.

MR. ECROYD

said, that the labourers of Ireland were the worst treated class, and he was sorry the Government had not seen their way to do something for them. Interference for their protection would be more justifiable than in regard to any other class, while improved dwellings would largely contribute to their content and self-respect.

MR. LALOR

said, he was sorry the Government had made up its mind to leave the labourers of Ireland out in the cold. No class in Ireland needed so much protection as the labourers—most of them held their small plots of land at extraordinary high rent, and it was not fair they should be denied the benefit granted to tenant farmers under the Bill.

MR. VILLIERS STUART

regretted that the labourers should be excluded from the protection of the Bill. Hon. Members who were not acquainted with Ireland could not imagine how shamefully rack-rented were many of the agricultural labourers. The noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) had quoted from The Times a statement that it was usual in the County Cork to charge at the rate of £12 per acre for allotment land. He himself knew a district where £15 per acre was not an uncommon rent. Of course, such a state of things must lead to a grievous amount of discontent; and it was greatly to be regretted that the Bill did not include the entire agricultural population. He trusted the Government would hold out some hope that something would be done next Session for the class now excluded.

MR. GIVAN

said, he must condemn the waste of golden moments on such an untenable proposition.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, that the Bill substantially did nothing for the labourers. He urged the Government to give a pledge to deal with the labourers' question next Session.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20 (Advances to tenants by Commission for purchase of holdings).

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

moved, in page 14, lines 39 and 40, leave out "a fair rent for," and insert "the full letting value of."

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he was willing to admit that in this clause, as it, stood in the first part of the Bill, the language was not accurate or satisfactory, inasmuch as it did not correspond with the language used in Clause 7 about a fair rent. But, undoubtedly, the intention always was the same—namely, that the limit of the sum advanced should be in the proportion of three-fourths, or whatever rent might be fixed under Clause 7. He was sorry it would not be possible to introduce here such a phrase as the "full letting value" of the holding, because that would bring a new subject under the view of the Court.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 23 (Purchase of estates by Commission, and re-sale in parcels to tenants).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 17, line 2, by leaving out from "thereof," to end of clause, and inserting— Or may pre-pay any instalments thereof in such manner, and on such terms as is provided by section fifty-one of 'The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870,' or in such other manner, and on such other terms, as the Treasury may from time to time approve, having regard to the due repayment of the loan and the protection of the Land Commission against loss by the said loan.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 24 (Sale to public of parcels not purchased by tenants).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 17, line 32, by leaving out from the first "the Railways Act (Ireland)," to "Act," in line 34.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25 (Terms of repayment of advances made by Commission).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made in page 18, line 12, by leaving out "sells;" and in page 18, at end, by adding— Provided, That, in respect of any holding which is subject to any charge in respect of an annuity in favour of the Board of Works, created in pursuance of 'The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870,' the said Board may, if they shall see fit, at any time during the continuance of such charge, upon the application of the person for the time being liable to pay the same, declare such holding to be subject to the conditions imposed by this Act on a holding subject to any charge in respect of an annuity in favour of the Land Commission; and thenceforth so much of the forty-fourth and forty-fifth sections of the said Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, as prohibits, without the consent of the Board, the alienation, assignment, sub-division, or sub-letting of a holding charged as in the said section mentioned, and declares that in the event of such prohibition being contravened the holding shall be forfeited to the Board; and also so much of section two of 'The Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1872,' as relates to the sale of holdings in lieu of forfeiture, shall, as to the holding in respect of which such a declaration has been made, be repealed, and the conditions imposed by this Act on a holding subject to any charge in respect of an annuity in favour of the Land Commission shall apply to the holding in respect whereof the said declaration has been made in the same manner as if the said conditions had been made applicable to the said last-mentioned holding by the said Acts of one thousand eight hundred and seventy and one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two, and the said Board had thereby been authorized to enforce the said conditions.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 (Reclamation of land).

MR. BIGGAR

proposed, in page 19, lines 3 and 4, leave out "to Companies."

Question proposed, "That the words 'to Companies' stand part of the Bill."

MR. HEALY

suggested that "Companies and others" should be inserted.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he should oppose the Amendment.

MR. BIGGAR

said, that, seeing that the majority of the House approved of squandering the public money, he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 19, line 6, after "land," by inserting "or foreshores."

MR. WARTON

proposed, in page 19, line 7, after the word "improvement," to insert the words— Provided always, That no advance shall be made to any such Company in respect of any scheme for the reclamation of fewer than fifty acres of land.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

thought the Treasury might be trusted in this matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 19, line 13, by inserting as a separate paragraph at end of sub-section (2)— Any advance to an occupier under this sub-section shall be subject to the provisions of the Landed Property Improvement (Ireland) Acts, so far as the Treasury may declare the same to be applicable, and shall have priority over all charges and incumbrances whatever upon the tenancy of such occupier, except rent, unless the landlord is a party to the advance, and agrees to postpone the rent to it; but before such advance is made one month's previous notice thereof shall be given in a newspaper circulating in the district within which the said holding is situated, and in such other manner as the Board of Works may prescribe; and such advance shall not have priority over any charge or incumbrance of which the Board of Works may have had notice in writing given them before making the advance.

And in page 19, line 19, after "section," insert— Nor any advances without proper security that those advances shall be expended for such purposes as aforesaid, in addition to the sums advanced or expended by the company out of their own moneys.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 27 (Emigration).

MR. PARNELL

(on behalf of Mr. HEALY), in moving the omission of the clause, said, that, taking into consideration the very late period of the Session at which they had arrived, he and his Friends did not intend to occupy the House at any length on the subject. He wished to point out that they were very much influenced in confining themselves to one division and a strong protest against the clause by the fact that the clause as it originally stood in the Bill had been very materially modified. As the clause originally stood, it provided that emigration should only take place to Canada and the British Colonies; but they felt firmly convinced that those who did emigrate under the Bill should be perfectly free to select the country themselves. They had also fixed £60,000 as the limit which should not be exceeded in any year in assisting emigration under the clause. These alterations were, of course, from their point of view, very important. In protesting still against the clause as it stood, he should record his opinion against the necessity for such a clause at all. The object of the Bill was professedly to improve the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland; but had the House and the Government had time to go into the question of emigration, which they had not been able to raise in any but a tentative manner, they would have been able to show the House that there was not the least necessity whatever for emigrating a single human being from Ireland. He could prove by statistics to the full conviction of Members of that House that the population of Ireland was less in proportion to its area than that of any other country in Europe, and the evidence of Professor Baldwin showed clearly enough that there was a sufficient quantity of fairly improvable land in Ireland, the letting value of which did not exceed 5s. an acre, which might, by a small expenditure per acre, be raised to a letting value of £1 per acre to support all the tenants in Ireland. He had brought forward an Amendment in another portion of the Bill, and he had some hope that the Government would consider the question of giving extended powers to local authorities for the purpose of purchasing land; and he trusted that when they obtained a system of representative county government for Ireland the House would see its way to giving such representative bodies powers which would enable them to improve the industrial resources of the country. It was true that at present they had not in Ireland a sufficiently representative body to undertake this work; and in proposing an Amendment to give such powers to the Boards of Guardians he should say that, as at present constituted, they were unsatisfactory bodies for the discharge of such duties. Before the condition of the congested districts came before the House again he hoped some practical legislation would have taken effect in the direction he had just indicated. In the operation of this Bill he trusted that many of the smaller tenants who had actually cut their holdings out of the bog would obtain suitable reductions of rent, and he considered that on such tenants this Bill would confer greater benefits than on any other; and he hoped that it would be possible, without resorting to emigration, to make these poor people live in their small holdings still longer, until the unoccupied and unreclaimed land had been brought into a state of cultivation, and he hoped the Government would not find it necessary to spend one single penny on emigration. Emigration went against every feeling in the Irish character, and it was associated with many of the most painful, deplorable recollections in the history of the country. They believed there was no necessity whatever for the departure from their country of one single man or woman or child; and he trusted that in the division about to be taken they would show the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that the majority of the Irish Representatives were against the proposed legislation. He begged to move the rejection of the clause.

Amendment proposed, in page 19, line 33, leave out Clause 27.—(Mr. Parnell.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'The Land Commissioners may from time to time' stand part of the Bill."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he accepted thankfully the assurance of the hon. Gentleman and his Friends that they did not think it necessary to revive the prolonged discussions upon this question that took place in Committee. He thought it necessary, however, to say to the hon. Gentleman that he certainly misunderstood the effect of the clause as it was first introduced—although he would admit it had been improved in its wording—as it was devised entirely for the purpose of insuring that emigration should he carried out in any quarter of the globe without any restriction whatever. The Government acceded very freely to the limitation of the money, as they did not believe that wholesale proceedings would or ought to arise under this clause. He should point out, in conclusion, that the Government had acceded willingly to the Amendment which limited the operation of the clause, and which rendered it necessary that they should again apply to that House and obtain its consent before any extension of the powers granted by the clause could be obtained. He need only say that the Government would adhere to the clause as it stood.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 238; Noes 37: Majority 201.—(Div. List, No. 338.)

Amendment proposed, in page 19, line 41, after the word "families," to insert the words "and poor persons."—(Mr. Warton.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

MR. ECROYD

, in moving, in page 19, line 42, after the word "Ireland," to insert the words "to any British Colony or Dependency," said, he must protest against employment of taxes raised from the English population for the purpose of sending emigrants to a country where they would not be allowed to be customers for British manufacturers.

Amendment proposed, In page 19, line 42, after the word "Ireland," to insert the words "to any British colony and dependency."—(Mr. Ecroyd.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. PARNELL

said, he wished to point out to the hon. Member who had just sat down that it was the English Members who were doing this, and not the Irish Members. As a proof of that, he would mention the fact that in the division which had just taken place 34 Irish Members voted against the clause, and only 22 of all sections voted in its favour. It had been stated on a previous occasion by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that they dared not take a division against the clause; and since he had expressed that opinion a majority of Irish Members had twice voted against it. He reminded the Prime Minister of his declaration that, in including or striking out the Emigration Clause, he would be guided by the preponderating view of Irish Members; and he therefore asked that the Prime Minister, having regard to the opinion of the majority of Irish Members, would have this clause struck out in the House of Lords.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, that 34 was not a majority of the Irish Members.

MR. PARNELL

explained what he meant was that a majority of the Irish Members voting had opposed the clause.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he trusted their time would not be occupied in such discussions. The majority of the Irish Members were in favour of the clause, and he therefore hoped they would hear no more of this boasted Irish majority.

MR. A. M'ARTHUR

wished to enter his protest against the alteration of the clause, which limited the assistance given to persons emigrating to British Colonies, and said he sympathized very much with the Mover of this Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 33A (Exceptional provisions for certain officers).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 34, line 32, after "1877," by inserting— And also to Clerks of the Crown and Peace who, under the provisions of the sixteenth section of the said Act have elected to continue to practise as solicitors. In page 34, line 36, by leaving out paragraph from "Every," to "office," in page 35, line 9, both inclusive; and in page 35, line 14, by leaving out from "and until," to "twenty-one," in line 15, both inclusive.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 35 (Constitution of Land Commission).

MR. W. H. SMITH

, in moving, in page 23, line 40, after the word "Act," to insert the words— Provided always, That in case at any time after the expiration of a period of six years from the passing of this Act a Commission shall have been issued by Her Majesty under Her Royal Sign Manual to ascertain and report whether the business of the Land Commission makes it requisite or not requisite that, after the expiration of the said period of seven years from the passing of this Act, there should be, in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, one or two other Commissioners; and, in case such Commission shall report that the business of the Land Commission makes it requisite that there should be, in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, one or two other Commissioners, and that such other Commissioner or Commissioners should be appointed for a period to be stated by such Commission. In such report Her Majesty may by Warrant under the Royal Sign Manual from time to time appoint some fit person or fit persons to be such other Commissioner or Commissioners to hold office during the period stated in such report. If such Commission report that the business of the Land Commission does not require that there should be any Commissioner in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, then upon the expiration of the said period of seven years after the passing of this Act, all the jurisdiction, powers, privileges, and authorities by this Act conferred upon the Land Commission shall thereafter be exercisable and enjoyable by the Judicial Commissioner alone, said, that the provision at present embodied in the measure lacked the element of stability, for, if it were preserved unchanged, the Land Commission must come to an end after a period of seven years, when it would be necessary, supposing the continuance of the Commission to be desirable, to make fresh applications to Parliament. It was undesirable that there should be repeated applications to Parliament on this subject, if they could be avoided; and he thought the difficulty which would arise if the Land Commission had not completed its work within the time for which it was to be appointed would be best obviated by his proposal.

Amendment proposed, In page 23, line 40, after the word "Act," to insert the words—"Provided always, That in case at any time after the expiration of a period of six years from the passing of this Act a Commission shall have been issued by Her Majesty under Her Royal Sign Manual to ascertain and report whether the business of the Land Commission makes it requisite or not requisite that, after the expiration of the said period of seven years from the passing of this Act, there should be, in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, one or two other Commissioners; and, in case such Commission shall report that the business of the Land Commission makes it requisite that there should be, in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, one or two other Commissioners, and that such other Commissioner or Commissioners should be appointed for a period to be stated by such Commission. In such report Her Majesty may by Warrant under the Royal Sign Manual from time to time appoint some fit person or fit persons to be such other Commissioner or Commissioners to hold office during the period stated in such report. If such Commission report that the business of the Land Commission does not require that there should be any Commissioner in addition to the Judicial Commissioner, then upon the expiration of the said period of seven years after the passing of this Act, all the jurisdiction, powers, privileges, and authorities by this Act conferred upon the Land Commission shall thereafter be exercisable and enjoyable by the Judicial Commissioner alone."—(Mr. William Henry Smith.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he regretted that the House generally had not had an opportunity of carefully considering this Amendment; but he and his Colleagues had had that opportunity, and he was bound to say that he felt indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. The Government were extremely desirous to avoid the risk of having an unnecessary number of offices and officers, and they also wished that there should be an opportunity of calling in the discretion of Parliament, as opposed to granting unlimited discretion to the Executive Government. Upon the whole, the Amendment was a prudent provision, and the Government were prepared to accept it. The creation of a Royal Commission in accordance with the views of the right hon. Gentleman would do away with the necessity, which the Government would otherwise be under, of applying to Parliament for fresh powers at the end of seven years.

MR. PARNELL

said, as the House had not had an opportunity of considering this Amendment, and those hon. Members who sat round him were not quite clear as to its meaning, he thought it would be better if the Government would adjourn this discussion until the Amendment was in print. The matter was too important to be disposed of hurriedly; and, as the ordinary time for adjournment had almost arrived, he begged to move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Parnell.)

MR. GIBSON

said, the Amendment contained nothing suspicious whatever. His right hon. Friend thought on the termination of seven years to prevent what might be a deadlock, by enabling the Government in the last year to appoint a Royal Commission to consider the whole state of the business under the Commissioners, and to recommend, after due inquiry, whether one Commissioner or two should be appointed. He must add that the Amendment would merely restore to the Bill the meaning of provisions originally contained in it with regard to the durability of the Commission. The Amendment would obviate the possibility of jobbery and prevent the multiplication of offices.

MR. SHAW

said, he saw no reason for objecting to the Amendment. It would never do, at the expiration of the seven years for which two of the Commissioners were appointed, to allow the whole business of the Commission to come to a deadlock, and such a contingency would be prevented by the adoption of the Amendment. At the same time, it would be a good thing to postpone the consideration of the Amendment, in order that hon. Members might have an opportunity of thoroughly understanding it. He would, however, suggest that the Amendment should be inserted in the Bill when it got to "another place," and be dealt with afterwards by the House of Commons.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA

said, he strongly objected to this Amendment being sprung upon the House at the eleventh hour. Such a provision might have a tendency to paralyze and minimize the action of the Commissioners, two of whom would have a species of notice that it was contemplated to get rid of them as soon as possible.

MR. SPEAKER

It appears to me very doubtful whether, at this stage of the Bill, a proposal of this kind can be considered by the House. Certainly, it does involve a possible charge on the Exchequer, and any proposition of that character should be brought forward in Committee. The balance of my opinion is decidedly adverse to the regularity of the proceeding.

MR. GLADSTONE

hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not press this proposal under these circumstances, because the Government could not think of attempting to press or carry it by a mere majority.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, that, after what had fallen from Mr. Speaker, it would be out of the question to persevere with the Amendment at this stage; but it was so important that he gave Notice that he would move to re-commit the Bill with a view of having it inserted.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, that, however favourably they viewed the Amendment, he could not undertake to be a party to such a course.

MR. GIBSON

said, he was of opinion that the Amendment did not involve the question of a charge upon the Exchequer, there being no words in it referring to the salaries of the Commissioners.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he did not think the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman relieved them of the difficulty in which they were.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

pointed out that if the suggestion of his right hon. Friend really partook of the character which had been ascribed to it by the Speaker, it followed that it was a provision which could not be introduced into the Bill in the House of Lords; and if nothing were done they would be under the necessity of having another Land Bill at the end of seven years. The only way of solving the present difficulty would be by re-committing the Bill; and as they had made great progress that afternoon, the Motion for the third reading might not unreasonably be expected to-morrow, when the step contemplated by his right hon. Friend could be taken with advantage.

Motion, and Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT

said, he would again impress upon the Government the necessity of giving some more specific and definite information as to their determination with regard to the functions of the Assistant Commissioners. It was a matter of the utmost importance to Ireland, and absolutely necessary that information should be given as to the numbers and the class of persons to be appointed. They would have most important functions to perform, and it was not desirable to leave the House in the dark on the subject.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, it was impossible to fix the number of Commissioners, because they did not know what the work would be. As to the choice of individuals, it would be a breach of duty for the Government to do so without consulting the Commission, and the Commission could not exist until the Act had passed.

MR. PARNELL

inquired whether the Commission would have power, pending an application for a judicial rent, to stay proceedings which a landlord might take under a writ of fi fa.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, the Government could not stop a landlord from proceeding like any ordinary creditor.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 41 (Powers of the Commission).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made in page 25, line 16, by leaving out from "for the purposes of this Act," to "High Court," in line 18, inclusive, and altering the numbers of the succeeding paragraphs.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

moved the omission of sub-section 2.

Amendment proposed, in page 25, line 19, to leave out from the word "for," to the word "Court," in line 24.—(Sir Hervey Bruce.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he could not agree to this, because this sub-section was, in the opinion of the Government, essential to the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 43 (Rules for carrying Act into effect).

On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Law), Amendment made, in page 27, line 24, by leaving out from "the mode of service," to "judicial rent," in line 25 inclusive, and in-serting— The attendance and discharge of duties of the Civil Bill Courts before the Land Commission and Sub-Commissions when holding sittings under this Act.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 44 (Service of civil bill processes and limitation of costs).

Amendment proposed, in page 28, lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words "and for recovery of rent."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, In page 28, line 8, after the word "whenever," to insert the words after the making of such rules and orders."—(Mr. Gibson.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

Amendment proposed, in page 28, line 8, after the word "action," to insert the words "for the recovery of rent or."—(Mr. Healy.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. TOTTENHAM

said, as this matter was of great importance, he moved the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Tottenham.)

MR. GLADSTONE

said, the Government proposed to take the further consideration of the Bill on Report as the first Business to-morrow (Thursday). Assuming that only a limited portion of the Sitting would be required for that purpose, and that there would be a general acceptance by the House of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith), who proposed the re-committal of the Bill for the consideration of his proposal, it was not improbable that these preliminary proceedings would be got over at an early hour. If so, the Government would wish to proceed to move the third reading of the Bill the same evening.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

thought there would be a general disposition to forward Business, and if the stage of the third reading were reached at a reasonable hour, giving opportunity for some observations that would naturally be made, there would be no objection to the course proposed by the Prime Minister.

It being a quarter of an hour before Six of the clock, further Proceeding on Consideration of the Bill, as amended, stood adjourned till To-morrow.