HC Deb 24 August 1881 vol 265 cc820-2
SIR HENRY TYLER

asked the Vice President of the Council, Whether he has seen an announcement in the "National Reformer," to the effect that Science Schools, in connection with the Science and Art Department, South Kensington, are held at the Hall of Science, Old Street; that the next Winter Session of such Schools will begin in October 1881, and will end in May 1882; that they will include courses of instruction by Mrs. Besant, the Miss Brad-laughs, and Mr. E. B. Aveling; whether this is the same Mrs. Besant who was refused the custody of her own children by the Master of the Rolls; and, whether the instructions in the Schools by these teachers will receive the sanction of Her Majesty's Government?

MR. MUNDELLA

Sir, this is practically the same Question as one asked by the hon. Gentleman yesterday, when I hoped I had given him a very full answer. I then stated that Dr. Aveling had taught science classes at the Hall of Science since 1879, and that he had re- ceived some assistance in teaching from Mrs. Besant and Miss H. Bradlaugh, but that it was gratuitously given, the only recognized teacher being Dr. Ave-ling. I stated to the House yesterday that the persons attending these classes were in the main skilled artizans. I find only one under 15 years of age. They range for the most part from 20 to 40. I never see The National Reformer, and consequently I have not seen the announcement in question; but I take it for granted that such an announcement has been made to the public, although it has not yet been communicated to the officials at South Kensington. Mrs. Besant is in no way recognized by the South Kensington Department. I may, perhaps, state the rules under which grants are made; and if the hon. Member had waited until he had heard them he might not have given the Notice he gave earlier in the Sitting. In order that a Science School may be recognized by the Science and Art Department and receive grants, it must be under a responsible Committee, approved by the Department. The teacher or teachers must be qualified according to certain conditions, which are detailed in the Science Directory. Grants, in the shape of payments on the results of examination, prizes, &c, are then made on account of the instruction of students of the industrial classes, who have received a certain minimum number of lessons at least. If the classes referred to come within these rules they will be recognized, and the grants duly made. The Committee of the Science Classes held in the Hall of Science, Old Street, E.C., consists of the Rev. Stewart D. Headlam, clergyman of the Church of England, Mr. Alsager Hay Hill, Mr. H. W. Lloyd Tanner, M.A., Mr. C. R. Drysdale (physician), Mr. W. Reynolds, Mr. R. O. Smith, Mr. G. Wells, Mr. E. G. Wells, Mr. W. J. Ramsay, &c. I presume that the hon. Member's objection to the teaching is that it might be of a secular tone. I do not know that it is so; but for all I know the teachers and the scholars also may be all secularists; but, even if it was so, that is no reason why South Kensington should refuse grants for the teaching of science. Her Majesty's Inspector reports that the instruction is exceedingly well given, that the classes are conducted with the greatest propriety, that the Committee is highly respectable, and the conditions on which the grants were made by the late Government have been fulfilled.

SIR HENRY TYLER

said, that, in consequence of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, he should feel himself under the necessity of saying a few words on the subject; and to put himself in Order he would conclude with a Motion. ["Oh, oh!"]

MR. SPEAKER

said, he must point out to the hon. Member that, having given Notice of a Motion on the subject, he was not in Order in bringing it forward now.

SIR HENRY TYLER

asked, as a point of Order, whether it was not competent for him, in replying to and commenting upon certain statements which had been officially made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Mundella) in answer to his Question, to make a Motion?

MR. SPEAKER

said, that the hon. Member was not entitled to reply to an answer given to a Question.

SIR HENRY TYLER

repeated his wish to discuss the subject.

MR. SPEAKER

again reminded the hon. Member that he had given Notice to bring the subject under the consideration of the House.

SIR HENRY TYLER

Not in reference to this particular case. ["Order!"] He wished to point out that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that Dr. Aveling was a recognized teacher of the Science and Art Department.

MR. SPEAKER

said, that the hon. Member was clearly out of Order.