HC Deb 20 August 1881 vol 265 cc590-5

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. W. Forster.)

MR. HEALY

asked the Government to postpone the consideration of the Bill until Monday, in order to give Irish Members an opportunity to discuss it. As he understood the Bill, its object was to transfer all the officers at present in the employment of the Church Temporalities Commission to the Land Commission. Now, that was a most objectionable mode of proceeding, because it would give employment to a lot of "true blue" Protestants and Orangemen in connection with the working of the Land Act, to the prejudice of that measure. He thought the working of the Land Act should not be hampered by the engagement of these persons; and he moved the adjournment of the debate, in order to give Members time to discuss the subject.

MR. CALLAN

seconded the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."— (Mr. Mealy.)

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

hoped the Motion would not be pressed. The danger which the hon. Member apprehended would not arise. It was not proposed to transfer the entire staff of the Church Temporalities Commission to the Land Commission. The 3rd section of the Bill regulated the appointments which the Land Commission might make. They would only select those who were competent to discharge their duties. The Land Commission would be without a staff, and it was necessary that they should have an office and a staff with which to carry on their business. By transferring all that were required of the staff of the Church Commissioners, and utilizing their office for the purposes of the Land Commission, a good deal of expense would be saved to the nation.

MR. CALLAN

said, it was most desirable that the Land Commission should be free from all sectarian and landlord bias. On looking over the list of officers of the Church Temporalities Commission, he found that they were, almost without exception, Protestants of the Orange Tory true blue stamp. Out of some 60 officials, only two were Roman Catholics, and this, he contended, was a most undesirable Board to hand over the work of the Land Act to.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that, if the Bill did not pass, the Church Temporalities Commissioners must continue their work for another year, when they themselves were of opinion that their work was done; but provision must be made for continuing the collection of the funds, and the Bill would transfer the work of supervision to the Land Commission.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said, the explanations were satisfactory; and he hoped the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) would withdraw his Motion.

In reply to Mr. HEALY,

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the Government had no intention of accepting the Amendments of the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Short title).

MR. CALLAN

asked if he were correct in stating that if this Bill did not pass, and they did not renew the Church Temporalities Bill, that Viscount Monck and Judge Lawson would not receive their salaries beyond the 31st of December?

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

Of course not.

MR. CALLAN

said, he would rather that the Chief Secretary answered the question.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that if the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill were not passed, or the clauses with regard to the Church Commission were taken out of it, and if this Bill were not passed, it was quite true that Judge Lawson and Viscount Monck's office would come to an end at the close of this year. And this, further, would happen—all the immense income of the Irish Church, with the arrangements for repayment, would come to an end also. In order to provide against this, the House must do one of two things—either give the power in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which continued the salaries, or pass this Bill.

MR. CALLAN

said, it behaved the Government to provide the machinery for working the Land Commission. It was not too late now to introduce a Bill to empower the Board of Works or the Local Government Board to collect all the moneys collected by the Church Temporalities Commission.

THE CHAIRMAN

We are now in Committee, and we must only discuss the clauses of the Bill.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 (Dissolution of Church Temporalities Commission).

MR. CALLAN

observed, that if a short Bill were passed simply changing the 3rd and 4th sub-sections of the 2nd clause in this Bill, and to confer upon the Board of Works or the Local Government Board "all the powers, authorities, and duties, rights, titles, and interests;" in fact, if the whole sub-section were put upon the Board of Works in Ireland, and all the powers vested in or exercised by the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in. Ireland under the Irish Church Act were vested in or exercised by the Board of Works in Ireland, or by the Local Government Board in Ireland, they would get rid of these most offensive jobs. It was on of the most iniquitous jobs that had ever been attempted.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the course that the hon. Member suggested was not open to them, because if this Bill were not passed then it must come under the operation of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.

MR. HEALY

said, they took power under the 2nd clause to vest the powers of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in the Land Commission. He wanted to know when they were going to meet?

MR. W. E. FORSTER

was understood to express a hope that something would be done shortly.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

proposed to add, in page 2, line 25,the following new sub-section:— (3.) All records and documents in the possession of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities at the time of their dissolution shall be transferred to the Irish Land Commission, who shall retain such of them as are in their opinion necessary for the management of the property transferred to them under this Act. The Land Commission shall preserve all such records and documents, and shall permit reasonable access to them, and shall from time to time lodge such of them as have ceased to he necessary for the aforesaid purpose in the Public Record Office of Ireland Alter the numbers of the subsequent subsections. The only reason that this sub-section became necessary was this. Under the Irish Church Act, Section 7, the Church records were placed in the hands of the Church Commissioners, and were subject to the inspection of persons who had the right to inspect. The sub-section which he proposed to add was for the purpose of incorporating that provision of the Church Act into this Bill, and it was necessary for its working.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Transfer of officers).

MR. HEALY

asked whether the Government intended to continue the right of a pension to the Irish Church Commissioners who were to be transferred to the Land Commission? Under the Land Bill no official was entitled to a pension.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

said, the Government had no idea of perpetrating a job. The object was to save the money of the country by utilizing the services of persons who would be unnecessarily employed if this were not done. He begged to disclaim the smallest idea of any job, or of any object beyond that which he had mentioned.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

said, he did not think that the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) said that the Government intended to perpetrate a job. He understood him to ask the Solicitor General for Ireland what number of the staff was necessary to continue the work of winding up the Church Commission, and what provision was to be made for pensions.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, the new Land Bill, not having yet received the Royal Assent, no appointment had yet been made by the new Commissioners.

MR. CALLAN

said, that the only appointments in the hands of the Commissioners were the secretary and his staff. He had to raise an objection to the 3rd clause from line 10 to 20. The words were in contravention to the Standing Order of the House, which, he believed, stated that any Money Bill, or any Bill imposing or commuting or in any way dealing with money matters, should be introduced in the Whole House, or should appear in the Bill in italics. Those 10 lines imposed upon the public funds the salaries of all persons entitled to receive salaries under the Land Commission, and would continue them to the 31st day of December next after the passing of the Act. He asked whether that was not in contravention of the Standing Orders?

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR

asked whether, if there were substantial ground for the objection, it could be raised after the second reading?

THE CHAIRMAN

The question is not one for the Committee. It is not paid out of the taxation of the country, but from the funds of the Church.

MR. CALLAN

said, the words were that— The Treasury may, if they see fit, direct that the salaries of the said Commissioners and of all persons employed by them on salary, and not appointed to situations entitling them at the same time to receive salaries under the Irish Land Commission, shall continue. That was imposed upon the Treasury, and not upon any private party.

MR. HEALY

said, his question was, whether the Government gave power in the Bill that any person who, being in a situation under the Church Commissioners, was to be transferred to the Land Commission, should forfeit his right to a pension? He was not going into the question of pensions; but the idea that this clause gave to the House was that there was no right of pensions. Why should the public be charged with the pensions of men simply because they were tranferred to the Land Commission, whereas, if the Government engaged new men, they would not be entitled to pensions under the Land Act? He supposed they would say they gave them upon the services rendered under the Church Temporalities Commission— that they would have no choice in the matter.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)

said, that was so.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 (Account of Church funds).

MR. HEALY

asked if the Government would give an undertaking in the Land Bill to make an Annual Return to Parliament of the separate account of the property transferred to them under this Act?

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

Certainly.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

said, he hoped that no party would be taken by the Land Commission whose want of sympathy with the working of the Act was apparent.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW)

said, he gave this assurance to the Irish Members that no person should be appointed on the transfer of the staff of the Irish Church Temporalities Commission to the Land Commission, whose want of sympathy with the Land Bill had been publicly manifested.

Clause agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next.