SECOND READING. (Hansard, 4 August 1881)

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
, in moving that the Bill be read a second time, said that at that late hour the House would probably consider it desirable that he should only give an outline of the measure. The term of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland under the Irish Church Act had 913 come to an end, and their powers were now temporarily continued by the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. Practically, all that remained to be done was to pay the annuitants that remained of the former establishment, to collect the income that remained for the Temporalities Office, and to pay off the debt due to the National Debt Commissioners and the debt for Intermediate Education. The object of the Bill, therefore, was to provide for the dissolution of the Church Temporalities Commission, and to transfer to the Irish Land Commission all the property vested in the Church Temporalities Commission.

§ MR. WARTON
asked, if the Irish Land Commission was not appointed, what would be done?

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
said, the Church Temporalities Commission would be temporarily continued for another year by the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill now before the House.

§ MR. HEALY
said, he did not object to the policy of the Government; but he wished for an exact statement of the affairs of the Church Temporalities Commission. When a particular Bill of this kind, involving an important change of policy, was advanced, the House ought to have a distinct statement of accounts.

§ MR. WHITLEY
said, the measure had only been distributed to Members a very short time, and they had not had sufficient opportunity for examining it and turning it over in their minds. Were the Church Temporalities Commissioners aware of the Bill? Either the measure should have been introduced earlier, or the Commissioners should have received some intimation of it.

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
said, he knew the Commissioners were aware of the existence of the Bill, because in an interview which he had had with Mr. Justice Lawson, who was one of them, this subject had been mentioned. There had been published a complete Report of the Church Temporalities Commissioners for the year 1880; and this summed up all that the body, with so much advantage to the public and credit 914 to themselves, had done from 1869 up to the present time.

§ MR. WHITLEY
What is the title of it?

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
said, it was entitled "The Report of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland for the period from 1869 to 1st July, 1880." It gave a brief summary of what had been done. It stated that they had realized all the land, and had sold it to occupying tenants willing to purchase, and, outside those purchasers, had sold to the general public. The manner in which the sales were made, the simple method in which the whole of the arrangements were carried out, and the plainest information carried in the most intelligible manner to the doors of the poorest, were shown in the Report.

§ MR. CALLAN
When did the Act expire?

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
In 1879.

§ MR. CALLAN
And how long do the present Commissioners hold office—when was the Act continued?

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)
The present Commissioners hold office until the 31st December, 1881, under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, which was passed in 1880.

§ MR. CALLAN
said, the 3rd clause of the Bill said they should be entitled to receive salaries up to the 31st December next. Mr. Justice Lawson would have no objection to this measure, because it would continue his salary and that of his brother Commissioners up to that date, although the duties had entirely ceased. There was an evil spirit pervading the whole of the Bill, and its practical effect would be to hamper and impede the action of the new Land Commission. It would place on their shoulders an incubus—a new "Old Man of the Sea." The Land Commission would have to take over an old effete staff of officials, and be hampered with men whose old duties in no way resembled those to be imposed on the new Land Commission. The Land Commissioners were to have the power of appointing a Secretary and Solicitor; but the effect of this Bill would be to hand over a Secretary and Solicitor. If this was not intended, the clause in the Bill 915 to which he was referring was merely unnecessary verbiage, and should be struck out. He should like to hear from the Government when the salaries of Mr. Justice Lawson and the other Commissioners would cease, and why, considering that their work had ceased, and that they had only technical duties to perform, a Bill should be brought in to confer upon them salaries up to the 31st December? If the salaries were merely a gift to these gentlemen, let it be so stated. In the provisions of the Bill nothing was said about the payment being merely a gratuity.

§ MR. R. N. FOWLER
said, that if the Bill were now read a second time, the Committee should not be taken before Monday. Time should be given for its consideration.

§ MR. BIGGAR
said, he could not agree with the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) upon one of the points he had raised. The hon. Member objected to the staff of the Church Temporalities Commission being transferred to the Land Commission; but it seemed to him (Mr. Biggar) that if the Secretary and Treasurer and other officers of the former Commission were efficient, it was desirable that, instead of abolishing them, they should be transferred to a new Department. His opinion was that as little patronage as possible should be placed in the hands of the Government. They knew it must always be extremely difficult to refuse a whole crowd of applicants. He would, however, remind the Government of this in making the transfer—that at the time the Church Temporalities Commissioners made their sales under the Church Act, land was much more valuable in the market than it was now; and it would be very injurious if the valuators in their transactions acted upon the same principles that guided them a few years ago.