HC Deb 04 March 1880 vol 251 cc376-90

(22.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exeeeding £8,800, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, he should like to know whether they were to be committed to the payment of the increase in regard to the salaries of the National Teachers from the Imperial Treasury which had been foreshadowed last year?

MR. ERRINGTON

said, he should like to ask whether information could be given as to the retiring gratuities of Teachers, and as to the meaning of the words—"Some large gratuities have been authorized for which the original provision was inadequate." As the item appeared to be of a very questionable character, he would be glad to know under what circumstances these unexpected gratuities had been authorized?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, in answer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that the increase of salaries to the National Teachers was due to the arrangements made last Session.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that he intended to move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £3,000, on the ground that it represented a change of the Government policy in regard to the salaries of National Teachers which had not been sanctioned last year. At that time it was only foreshadowed; but it was now introduced in the guise of a small addition to the Estimates. He had no desire whatever to reduce the salaries of Teachers, but only wanted to raise the question whether the charge should be a local one, or be borne by the Imperial Exchequer. It was unreasonable that the Committee should be asked to sanction so important a change which had not been brought forward in a straightforward manner. Under those circumstances, he moved the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £3,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,800, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland."—(Sir George Campbell.)

MR. SHAW

said, he could not agree with the hon. Gentleman in cutting down the salaries to be given to the National School Teachers. There had been no extravagance whatever in the working of the National Educational Board, which, in his opinion, had operated in the most satisfactory manner. There were, however, a few things which it was thought ought to be amended, and he would point out that the training of Teachers in Ireland was very inadequate, there being only one Institution in Dublin for that purpose. In England all denominations were enabled by Government to train their own Teachers; but this was not the case in Ireland, where it would be seen the training of Teachers was very badly provided for. He trusted the Government would attend to this question. Another point which he desired to bring before the Chief Secretary for Ireland was the question of Agricultural Education. The Government had adopted the policy of reducing the number of the agricultural schools to such an extent as he believed would almost entirely extinguish them. About 15 months ago two gentlemen met in the County of Cork and agreed to subscribe a sum of money for an agricultural school if the Government would give them some additional aid. But they had never been able to get the Government to see the use or need of this proposal. The school, consequently, remained in a dead-and-alive state. He complained that the Government would not take in hand those measures which the people in Ireland thought they ought to attend to. There was no doubt that in a country like Ireland it was perfectly absurd that there should be no means of giving the people any education in the great business of agriculture, in which they were principally engaged. The Government would not lay hold of this important question and give any distinct answer concerning it.

MR. MACARTNEY

said, there were formerly in Ireland several model farms, established for the purpose of giving practical instruction to agriculturists in the best mode of farming; but, unfortunately, they had been managed in such a way as to bring them into disrepute. In one case there was an expensive building, provided with accommodation for 40 pupils, who, instead of being instructed in agriculture, and being made themselves to work the farms, were taught geography, mathematics, men- suration, and other subjects of a like character, and the Institution had been made a stepping-stone for other purposes than those for which it was originally designed. It seemed to him that schools might be established in various parts of Ireland, in which farming alone might be taught, and not for the purpose of instructing persons in the higher branches of education.

MR. D. TAYLOR

said, he acknowledged the great value of model schools for the purposes of education in Ireland. In fact, he thought that anyone thoroughly acquainted with that system could not but bear the highest testimony to their efficiency. Prom what he knew of them, he believed the Teachers had been altogether badly remunerated for the attention they had given to their duties. They had not only discharged their ordinary duties as Model School Teachers; but he knew that a number of them had spent a great deal of time in teaching science and other subjects. The remuneration which they received was, in his opinion, far below the amount which their talents entitled them to. The model school connected with the district which he represented had been the means of giving a number of Teachers to the district. He believed that their salaries should not only not be decreased, but that they were entitled to any additional sum which the Government might think it right to allow. He hoped the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy would not object to the Vote.

MR. ERRINGTON

said, he wished to know whether the increase of retiring pensions indicated that the Government were going to inaugurate a new departure in this respect? If that were so, it was clear that in the ordinary course of things these retiring gratuities should not appear in the Supplementary Estimates.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that the increase in the amount of retiring pensions was due to ordinary causes, and was not connected with any intention to inaugurate any new departure.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, there was no difference of opinion as to the desirability of increasing the salaries of the Teachers in the National Schools; but the question which had to be decided was, whether that charge should be taken from the taxpayers of England and Scotland, or whether it should be, as he believed it should be, a local charge on Ireland. His impression was that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland had only announced, incidentally, in a speech upon another subject, that he was going to make a proposal of this kind. What had been the policy of the House and of the country on this point? Parliament had consented, up to a certain point, to provide schools in Ireland in a different manner to that in which they were provided in England; but it was also decided that after that point any additions required must come from local sources. An Act had been passed by which the Guardians in Ireland were authorized to supplement the salaries of teachers to the required extent; but they had not done so. If they were not to be compelled, then the House had seen the Irish Church Fund lately devoted to this, that, and the other object; and it seemed to him that one of the most proper purposes to which that fund could be applied was to supplement the salaries of the National School Teachers. He protested against an important change of policy being introduced through the medium of the Supplementary Estimates, and the charge being thrown on the country.

MR. RAMSAY

said, that the sum of £1,200 in this Vote was said to be payments entirely required for copyists. He should like some explanation of what kind of officials these copyists were?

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, that the training now given to the Teachers did not accord with the views of the great majority of the Irish people. The result was that, so long as the present system was persisted in, trained Teachers would not be employed in the great bulk of the schools of Ireland. If a proper system of training schools were established, and the Teachers were trained in accordance with the views of the people, it would be possible to obtain an approach to universal elementary education in Ireland.

MR. MACARTNEY

said, that he wished to know whether the gratuities to be given to the Teachers were fixed upon the same scale as those estimated for last year, by which the age of 65 years was proposed for men, and that of 60 for women. He knew that a great deal of disaffection prevailed with regard to that scale, and he should like to know if it had been abolished?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that the question raised by the hon. Member for Limerick was a very large one, and could not conveniently be discussed on a Supplementary Estimate. There was a very large amount of official Correspondence in consequence of the work caused by the National School Teachers, and the copyists were required in the Office of National Education in Ireland. With regard to the scale for retiring allowances, it was considered last year, and he believed that it gave general satisfaction.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, that before the Vote was put he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for some information with regard to these schools. Very grave dissatisfaction existed with regard to those model schools. Undoubtedly, those model schools were attended by a class of persons who ought not to have their education paid for by the State. That was the grievance complained of with regard to these schools. He was sure that now attention had been drawn to the matter the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary would look into it. He should like to have some intimation of the intentions of the Government on the subject.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that the hon. Member was quite correct in stating that his attention had been called to this matter. He looked into it when he was last in Ireland; but he trusted the hon. Member would excuse him from entering into a discussion of the matter at that period. The question was raised in a very infinitesimal manner upon the Supplementary Estimates.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(23.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £810, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National School Teachers' Superannuation Office, Dublin.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, that this Vote appeared for the first time in the present Estimates, and was practically a Vote for a new Department. Some time ago it was desired to grant pensions to Teachers; and, accordingly, an Act of Parliament was passed to carry that purpose into effect. But, instead of allowing the work to be done in the Education Office in Dublin, the Government had thought it necessary to create a new Office. He should like to know what was the necessity for the creation of this Office? Already the sum of £810 was required for it; and, according to the salaries paid, it would obviously amount in a few years to £1,000 a-year. It was certain that in the course of a few years the annual salaries of the clerks in the Office would be raised, and then the expenses of distributing these pensions would amount to £1,000 a-year. He could not see why it was not possible to conduct the administrations of these pensions by means of the staff of officials which already existed. When the work of estimating the pensions in the first instance had been gone through, then it seemed to him that it would be possible to return the work to the ordinary staff of the Education Office. The first person mentioned in the Votes was the Superintendent in Dublin, who, it was stated, also received a salary from the Army Votes as a principal clerk and actuary in the War Office. The next three persons had special allowances. It seemed that the first clerk was paid £190, including a special allowance of £100 a-year. The second clerk at present got £118, including a special allowance of £60 a-year. The maximum salary for the second clerk was £300 per annum; and each of the lower division clerks would receive a maximum salary of £250. Therefore, in the course of a few years, the expenses of the Office would reach £1,000. He should like to be informed whether this Office was intended to be permanent in its character or not?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that an Act was passed last Session by which a large amount of additional work was caused. It had been found impossible to get that work done by the ordinary staff' of the Education Office. In the first place, the work required the personal attention of an experienced actuary, and the Government had found a gentleman of the requisite experience in the War Office to perform the duties. He might say that the greatest economy had been observed in what had been done.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that this Vote was another instance of the financially immoral process of trying to pass under these Votes entirely new es- tablishments and charges which came before the House at a late hour and towards the end of the financial year.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, that his question had not been answered as to whether this establishment was to be permanent or temporary? No doubt, in the first instance, it might be necessary to have a temporary staff; but he could not see why a permanent one would be requisite.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that so far as it was at present determined the establishment would be temporary as regarded some of its features, but the matter was not finally decided upon; but some addition to the staff of the National Education Commissioners would have been required to enable the duties to be discharged if they had been attached to that Department. The items in the Votes at present were temporary.

MR. COURTNEY

said, that last year they passed a Bill by which £1,300,000 was voted out of the Irish Church Surplus Fund for the purpose of working this pension scheme. Now the House had started upon it an additional charge for managing those pensions. He considered that the £1,300,000 was granted for the purpose of managing the whole business; and he was surprised that a further sum should now be asked by means of the Supplementary Estimates for the management of the scheme.

MR. CALLAN

said, that if the hon. Member for Liskeard would read the Act of Parliament, he would find that the money voted was not allocated for the expenses of the Education Office, but for the pensions only. He wished to point out that no new appointments had been made in this mater, but only that promotions had been made in the Education Office in Dublin.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that it was distinctly stated last year that the money so taken from the Irish Church Surplus was to go to defray the charge for pensions and not for management. The staff now employed was, to a great extent, only temporary, though, no doubt, some of the clerks would have to be permanent.

MR. RYLANDS

said, that with respect to the first clerk, who had a special allowance of £100 a-year, he should like to know whether that gentleman held a temporary appointment? No doubt, there might be good reason for putting an experienced actuary in the first instance to superintend the granting of these pensions; but he did not know whether the gentleman who was employed in the Office should receive special allowances. Why should there be any special allowances in that department? He agreed with what had been said, that this work ought to have been undertaken in the Office of the National Education Commissioners. It would have been more economically conducted in that manner, and it would have given the clerks in the Education Office full occupation for their time instead of taking gentlemen already engaged in public business from their work. In his opinion, this item was one of the most objectionably loose Estimates which had ever been laid upon the Table of the House.

MR. SHAW

said, that he did not see anything particularly loose about this Estimate. It appeared to him that there were only two ways of paying clerks. They might be paid by making a deduction from the Pension Fund, or they might be paid out of the public rates. It seemed to him that the proper course had been taken in the present instance by making their salaries fall upon the public purse rather than upon the Pension Fund. He was extremely sorry that any objection had been raised to the Vote.

MR. DODDS

said, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had been challenged to say whether or not this was the establishment of a new office; but he had carefully refrained from giving them any information on that point. The right hon. Gentleman had had the point put to him two or three times as to whether or not the establishment was to be a new office; but he had only gone so far as to state that an additional expense might be thrown upon the National Board of Education in Ireland. If that were the case, he did not think there would be very great objections; but what he did object to was the establishment of an entirely new office. The Vote was inserted in the Estimates as entirely new matter, and was not put forward in any way as an addition to the expenses of the National Board of Education in Dublin. The items showed that one clerk received a salary of £118 a-year, which was to be increased to £300, and four lower division clerks were now paid £148, which might be increased to £250 each, thus bringing the total expense of the office, on this account alone, to £1,000 per annum. Another item showed that the office was intended to be permanent—namely, that of 15s. a-week for a messenger. If the Government felt disposed to establish a new office, let it be done by all means after the customary explanation, but it should not be done in the manner that was attempted in this case. His attention was also called to an allowance for cleaning the office, and that showed clearly enough that a new office was intended. He hoped that the Committee would not allow the Vote to pass in its present form, for the creation of a perfectly new office by a side-wind, without any kind of explanation, seemed to him to be open to very great objection.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that the objections of hon. Members to the establishment of a new office should have been taken when the Bill sanctioning these pensions passed through Parliament. The Bill was received with very general satisfaction on both sides of the House, and under it £1,300,000 was voted out of the Irish Church Surplus Fund for these pensions. It must occur to the House that the administration of that sum of money would require the services of a certain amount of staff. There was no power under the Act to charge the expenses upon the Pension Fund, and therefore the Government had had no alternative but to bring the expense into the Supplementary Estimates. As he had said before, it would no doubt be necessary to retain some of the clerks permanently, but most of the appointments were temporary only.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, that it seemed to him a matter of importance for the Committee to know whether the administration of the Pension Funds was to be entrusted to a new office, or simply to be made an addition to the work of the National Education Commissioners. He looked forward to the day when they might manage their own affairs in Ireland, and if they had legacies of this kind in the shape of new establishments, they would find considerable difficulty in dealing with them. It seemed to him that the constant creation of offices was likely to exercise a most demoralizing effect in Ireland. By placing further patronage in the hands of the Govern- ment, it tempted the people to seek it. Although he was in Opposition, the amount of communications which he was continually receiving from persons desirous of obtaining situations under Government was enormous. He should like to be informed whether this additional expense was to be always borne upon the Estimates as a separate Vote, or whether it was in future to form part of the general expenditure of the National Education Board?

MR. CALLAN

said, that he happened to know something about the Educational Office in Dublin. It was not, he believed, very well known in London, that so small was the number of clerks employed in the Education Department in Dublin, that when Returns had been asked for, the staff had been unable to furnish them except by working overtime, and receiving an increase of pay in consequence. There were only two or three rooms in Dublin, which went under the name of the National Teachers' Pension Office.

MR. DODDS

said, that the Chief Secretary for Ireland had stated that the office had been rendered necessary by the Act of Parliament passed last year, and that the sum now required was to be expended for that purpose. But he had also told the Committee that there was no power under the Act of Parliament to provide the necessary machinery. The question which the Committee had to decide was how this should be provided. The only single item which had been mentioned as being of a temporary character was that of £89 for the Actuary. All the other items appeared to be connected with the new establishment which the Committee were told was to be formed as a branch of the Board of Education in Dublin, but which had to be accounted for by the Treasury Remembrancer in Ireland. He had no hesitation whatever, under those circumstances, in moving that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £610, that was to say, by omitting all the items except the special item which had been paid to the Actuary. He, therefore, begged to move to reduce the Vote by the sum of £610.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £200, be granted to Her Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National School Teachers' Superannuation Office, Dublin."—(Mr. Dodds.)

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, that the House had most unanimously voted this sum last year for the pensions of the National School Teachers in Ireland. The question now raised by the hon. Member for Stockton appeared to be one of economy as regarded the administration of the office. Everyone would admit that it must be administered in some way; and no hon. Member had given any intimation of how it could be more economically administered than under the system proposed by Government. Would any hon. Gentleman say that the staff of the National Board in Ireland were qualified to settle the question of pensions? The hon. Member for Stockton had not made any proposal by which he had shown that the existing administration of the National Board in Ireland could take men away from their existing duties to perform this particular function. Had the hon. Member done this, he, for one, would not have opposed the Motion for reduction; but, as he had failed to hear any reason of that kind, he should certainly support the Government with reference to the Vote.

MR. DODDS

said, that the hon. Baronet could not have heard what had taken place, or he would have learned that the Vote for the Actuary was of an entirely temporary character, and was not to be continued. He seemed to think that it was suggested that the fund should be administered by the Board of Education. This was not a question of economy, but a question of establishing a totally new and distinct office, instead of adopting one of two other courses open to the Government—either to provide funds under last year's appropriation out of the Church Surplus, or to increase the Supplementary Estimate in connection with the Board of Education. He had adopted the explanation of the Chief Secretary for Ireland so far as the actuarial business was concerned, by moving the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £610, which was ordinary expenditure, and which ought to be provided for out of the Church Funds under the Act of last Session.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he believed that the Act of last year meant that a sum should be set aside out of the Church surplus for the especial purpose of raising the salaries of the teachers, and that no part of that sum was contemplated for the management of the office. The Fund was guaranteed by the National Debt Commissioners; and, under those circumstances, the Treasury were bound to account for any expenditure there might be in the management of the work done under that particular Act of Parliament. The National Debt Commissioners were ultimately responsible for the whole of the management of the matter.

MR. C. S. PARKER

said, he should like to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he was prepared to say that the House had contemplated taking funds from any other sources than the Irish Church Surplus Fund?

MR. MONK

said, he wished to know what it was that the National Debt Commissioners had guaranteed? Had they guaranteed that this Fund of £1,300,000 should be properly expended in providing pensions for the teachers in Ireland? He had no doubt that Parliament had intended that the whole expense connected with the management of the Department should come out of that sum of £1,300,000. He recollected what had taken place last year as well, probably, as most other hon. Members, and there had not been one word uttered in his hearing as to the expense of managing the Fund being taken out of the Consolidated Fund. He was certainly of opinion that it was a reckless expenditure on the part of the Government to establish a new office for the management of this Fund, inasmuch as there was an office already in existence by which it might be admirably administered. He thought the Committee would have no objection to vote the necessary funds for increasing the Educational system; but he objected altogether to the establishment of another office, because the consequence would be the formation of a new staff of clerks and managers, with prospective claims for compensation, and all the reckless expenditure which had been so frequent during the last few years.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he had endeavoured to point out that this office was necessary, because the National Debt Commissioners of England were ultimately responsible for any deficiency which might occur in the Church Surplus Fund, so far as the pen- sions of Teachers were concerned, and that it was a safeguard to them that it should be administered under the direction and responsibility of the Treasury in this country. What had really happened was that a sum had been allocated to pay the pensions of teachers; and although it was not probable that the Fund from which that amount was to be drawn would fail to provide the necessary amount, yet it was necessary, when the Government had to deal with the question of pensions, that some guarantee should be given. Now, the National Debt Commissioners were the guarantees of this particular Fund; and as some administration of the sum voted for the pensions of teachers had had to be provided, it was thought necessary that it should be carried out under the eyes of the Treasury. A certain number of clerks had, therefore, been appointed in addition to the Actuary, who had been sent over to Ireland to work this particular branch of the Education Department.

MR. DODDS

(who, on rising, was met by cries of "Divide, divide!") said, that the hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr. Callan) might cry "Divide, divide!" as long as he pleased; but he should continue to address the Committee as long as it was necessary, or until he was stopped by the Chairman. The Committee had now heard from the Secretary to the Treasury something like an explanation of the reason why this Vote had been submitted to its consideration; although, up to the time of the rising of the hon. Baronet, no such explanation had been given. The hon. Baronet had told the Committee that the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt were the backing for this sum of £1,300,000, and were responsible for it in case the Irish Church Fund was not sufficient. He had been looking at the Act of Parliament whilst the hon. Baronet had been speaking, but had failed to see anything therein which justified that view. What he had found was, that this Fund had to be provided by the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland, and that the Commissioners, with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant and the Treasury, were to provide for the purposes of this Act such sums, not exceeding in the whole £1,300,000 sterling, as the Commissioners of the National Debt should from time to time certify as required. The National Debt Commissioners were, therefore, to find such sums not exceeding the amount named as were necessary for the purposes of this Act. He contended that one of the purposes of the Act was that it should be put in operation, and though it fully justified the payment out of the Fund of the expense of putting the Act into operation, there was no clause which justified the view taken by the hon. Baronet. The 10th clause of the Act commenced as follows:— Any time after the passing of this Act, the Treasury, with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant, may make Rules for the administration of this Act; and all such Rules shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within 14 days if sitting, and, if not sitting, within 14 days from the re-assembling of Parliament. He asked whether these Rules had been made, and, if so, why they had not been laid upon the Table of the House? Had the Irish Government Department done its duty with regard to this Act of Parliament, the Committee would have had these Rules before them, and would have had an opportunity of discussing the whole question in a regular and proper manner. Instead of that, they had laid before them an Estimate which established a new office directly contrary to the Act of Parliament.

MR. CALLAN

said, he cried "Divide!" because he felt that the Committee were placed in a humiliating position by the delay of Public Business in spending two hours over that paltry Vote.

MR. MONK

said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether the Rules referred to in the Act of Parliament had been framed; and, if so, why they had not been laid upon the Table of the House?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that the arrangements of the Department were at that time not quite complete.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.