HC Deb 04 March 1880 vol 251 cc324-41

(1.) £36,000, Stationery and Printing.

MR. MONK

said, that he found on this Vote an increase on account of salaries of £600. No explanation was given of this increase, except that it was said that, "although the re-organization of the Department in July last will ultimately result in considerable economy in salaries, the immediate effect is an increase of about this amount." He wished to ask the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury whether those salaries were in addition to the retiring allowances? He should also like to know whether the increase in salaries was due to certain officers being paid higher salaries under the re-organization scheme, or whether an additional staff of clerks had been employed; and, further, whether, under the re-organization scheme, any of the clerks had been pensioned off?

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that as he understood some of the increase was due to the employment of fresh clerks. Owing to the reduction in the number of officers in the Department as a whole, the salaries of other officers had been increased. The effect of the reduction would not be felt until the pensions of some of those officers who had retired ceased to be payable. Ultimately, there would be a considerable decrease in the Expenditure.

MR. RYLANDS

said, that with regard to the re-organization scheme, he wished to submit to the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury whether it would not be convenient to lay upon the Table of the House a Paper showing the actual immediate addition to the Expenditure by the increase of salaries, and also the reduction which had been made in the Office; and, further, the ultimate advantage that would accrue to the public in the form of reduction in the Expenditure? He believed that that was done in the case of the Admiralty, and in one or two other instances; and he thought that it was very desirable that the same course should be pursued in the present case. He wished to ask the hon. Baronet whether it was anybody's duty to ascertain whether the statements that were made from time to time as to reduction in expenditure were proved by experience to be accurate or not? He thought that an attempt should be made to ascertain whether, in consequence of the re-organization, a diminished or an increased expenditure took place in the Department. The public ought to be informed whether the expectations held out at the time of re-organization were realized; and whether, through an additional expenditure not contemplated at the time of re-organization, the expected reduction had not taken place.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that he could inform the hon. Member that the whole results of the re-organization of a Department were submitted to the Treasury. When a reorganization was proposed the Treasury had to be satisfied both as to the existing amount of the expenditure and as to the future maximum result of the changes. The Treasury then judged whether or not to sanction the change. No re-organization could take place without the sanction of the Treasury, which always considered its probable results. The hon. Member, had asked whether any watch was kept by the Treasury as to the working out of the results? So far as the Estimates went, they had an absolute check upon the results. They had the actual results brought before them, and could thus see how far the expectations as to reduction were realized. The hon. Member asked whether the Treasury had found that in some cases it was necessary to amplify the original scheme by the introduction of other officers. So far as his own experience went, he had never found that that had been the result. The results of the re-organizations were watched with the greatest possible care by the Treasury, and it took care that only schemes of a really practical character were adopted. He could see no objection to furnishing the House in future with the information that the Treasury itself always possessed with regard to any proposed scheme. In the case of the re-organization last year full information was submitted to the House. The Treasury took note of the proposed saving and of the proposed salaries; and he saw no reason for being unable, if the House desired it, to put it in possession of all the information in the hands of the Treasury.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that, in his opinion, the results of re-organization schemes had been to give a great many gentlemen increased salaries, and a great many others good pensions. It was generally found, when a change had taken place, that something which had been overlooked called for a fresh expenditure. He thought that these re-organization schemes required to be looked into much more carefully than they were. One or two instances of that kind he had noted, and could refer to. He had known cases of gentlemen being retired at middle age on pensions, and taking other employments, when they might have been much better employed in the Government Offices. He thought that his hon. Friend the Member for Burnley had done well in bringing the subject to the notice of the Committee.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, that there was a matter in connection with the Stationery and Printing Vote which he proposed to bring before the notice of the Committee when the ordinary Civil Service Estimates were considered. He did not propose to raise a discussion then; but he should like to take that opportunity of asking the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury what had been done in the matter of the distribution of pamphlets and reports in accordance with his suggestion? The Government had promised that Mr. Speaker should be consulted as to whether some satisfactory arrangement could not be made for the gratuitous distribution of the official Papers in question to the free libraries throughout the country.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that he was very sorry he could not give a satisfactory reply to the question addressed to him by the hon. Member for Birmingham. On more than one occasion he had been in communication with Mr. Speaker on the subject, and various schemes had been suggested. Unfortunately, owing to certain difficulties with regard to the contracts for the printing of the House, they had not yet been able to adopt the course proposed by the hon. Member. Perhaps on another occasion he should be enabled to announce a more satisfactory result.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

said, that there could be no possible difficulty in the matter, if the Government made up its mind to take the step he suggested. His proposal was that 100 extra copies of pamphlets and other official Papers should be printed and distributed amongst the free libraries of the country. He could not understand the necessity for referring the matter to Mr. Speaker; for if the Government were to consent to a slight increase of the Expenditure in this Vote it could be done.

MR. RYLANDS

said, that his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham was perfectly justified in pressing this matter upon the attention of the Government. In his opinion, it was a question of very great public importance, and he hoped that his hon. Friend would take the opportunity of the Civil Service Estimates for bringing the matter again before the House. The real Obstructive in this matter was the noble Lord the Postmaster General; for if he would make no charge for the transmission of these Blue Books the principal obstacle to the gratuitous distribution would vanish.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) £180, Lunacy Commission, Scotland.

(3.) £36, Lord Lieutenant's Household, Ireland.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that this sum was stated to be required for emblazoning arms, and was a charge which used to be defrayed from the Stationery and Printing Vote. He should like to ask whether the work was given to an Irish firm or not? He only rose to ask the question for the purpose of giving the Government the satisfaction of stating that that was the case.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that this item was originally included in the Stationery Vote. The work was executed under the immediate eye of Sir Bernard Burke, and it had been thought better to take the items from the Stationery Vote, and place it in the Vote for the expenses of the Lord Lieutenant's Household. He had no doubt that Sir Bernard Burke had acted as the hon. Member would have desired that he should act. The duty of emblazoning these arms was intrusted to the Herald's Office.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

said, that it was his impression that the chief expenses for the College of Arms were not paid by Vote, but were charged upon the Consolidated Fund.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that he believed that was the case. The Vote in question was formerly defrayed from the Stationery Vote; but it had been thought better to separate it, and place it under the present head.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £2,700, Local Government Board, Ireland.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, that he should like to call attention to a matter in connection with this Vote. Under subhead F, the sum of £300 was charged on account of travelling expenses of four Inspectors. To that item he did not wish to object; but he desired to point out that there was a large district in the West of Ireland called Connemara, which was situated partly in Galway and partly in Mayo, which was utterly beyond the control of the local Board of Guardians. That district was in great need of supervision; for the Boards of Guardians, though very efficient, were unable, from the extent of the district, to exercise anything like efficient control. The distress might be very severely felt in those districts, unless they were placed under the special superintendence of some Government Department. He wished to ask the Government whether they intended to place that part of Gal-way under some special supervision? The Government ought to give some assurance that the Local Government Board would pay special attention to the wants of those districts, and see that there were efficient means of relief there.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, that he could assure the hon. and gallant Member that the Government were thoroughly alive to the matter referred to. He might point out to the Committee that three additional Inspectors were appointed in addition to the four originally sanctioned. The Treasury had permitted the appointment of such additional staff in order that the most thorough inspection might be made, and that the Government might be kept fully alive to the extent of the distress. His right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant kept himself fully acquainted with the wants of each district; and he could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there was no district in Ireland as to which the Go- vernment had not the means of exercising the most complete supervision.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that he did not wish to doubt the statement of the hon. Baronet; but he feared, notwithstanding the willingness of the Government, that they were taking an optimist view of the situation, and of the distress which existed. In a great many districts there was fearful distress, while, for some reason or other, the inspection was extremely faulty. He could give several cases in illustration of that view. He should like to know how it was that state of things existed in Tipperary, a district which was by no means amongst the worst off in Ireland? He would just quote one single instance of the existing state of things; and, except on the fact, as he had stated, that the Government inspection had been at fault, he could not understand how matters could have arrived at such a pass. In Tipperary the Board-room of the Guardians had been invaded by a crowd of hundreds of starving labourers, who, together with their families, were living in a state of destitution, and who absolutely threatened the Guardians by saying that they had no other resource than to break open the broad stores and support themselves and their families by plunder. Hero was a threat of social insurrection. The mob was only pacified by a promise of instant relief. Had any proper means of inspection been at the disposal of the Government, or had the means already existing been properly used, how, he asked, could the distress in this particular district have culminated in an outbreak and the threat of a broad riot? He was greatly afraid that too much optimism prevailed in Government quarters with regard to Irish distress. It was announced in the papers of that morning that the contributions from America were falling off owing to the belief that abundant means had already been provided for meeting that distress; and a few weeks ago the representative of that estimable body, the Duchess of Marlborough's Committee, gave an intimation that their measures were so complete that the danger of further distress had passed away. Now, he believed that there existed the most imminent danger of extreme and frightful distress extending far beyond the regions in Ireland which were usually associated with it in the minds of hon. Members. If this view were correct, he believed the Government and the people in Ireland would arrive at a very critical pass before the end of many months. An English provincial newspaper had, moreover, that day given descriptions of cases of most horrible destitution which had occurred in the existing condition of affairs. While giving the Government credit for the same feelings of humanity which were claimed by those around him, he could not help asking how came it that those horrible, frightful, and revolting scenes were taking place all over Ireland, if there existed proper means of bringing the fact to the notice of the Government, or if the Government officials were properly making use of the means at their disposal? It would seem that no adequate use was being made of existing means of relief, and that the Government seemed to be unaware of the state of things in Ireland.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £2,000, Public Works Office, Ireland.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, he did not object to this item; but took that opportunity of pointing out to the Committee that there were two modes by which Her Majesty's Government were affording relief to persons in Ireland, one of thorn being the system of out-door relief, and the other the system of labour on public works under the baronial sessions. The Poor Law Unions had to apply to the baronial sessions to give work for the employment of labour. Now, lie understood from the statements contained in newspapers, and the reports which had reached him, that in many eases when these applications for the employment of labour had been made the baronial sessions had inadequately responded to the appeal, and he believed that the amount of work given had not been sufficient to meet the present emergency. It had been pointed out that the money granted for this purpose would be ill-spent, and the work ill-executed, owing to the hurry in which it was carried out; and that, consequently, there existed a dislike to paying for the baronial works. But this was really the chief means which the Government had held out for relieving the present distress in Ireland. He desired to know whether the Treasury could make up any statement that would show what had been the amount of work done in each barony under the baronial sessions at the request of the Poor Law Unions, and whether they would lay such statement on the Table of the House? Again, he would like to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland if there existed at that moment any power by which the Local Government Board could step in and compel the Poor Law Unions to relieve the poor—by which, if any works were ordered to be undertaken in a particular barony for the relief of the poor, they could say to the Guardians—"You are not doing your work." He thought no such power was vested in the Local Government Board; but it seemed to him that there ought to be some machinery by means of which that body could compel the Poor Law Union to do its work. His second question, therefore, was, what machinery had the Government at their disposal for enforcing the execution of a certain amount of work, if the barony did not respond to the application of the Poor Law Unions?

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) had most opportunely raised a very important question. Relief by means of employment on public works was really the only portion of the Government scheme for the relief of distress in Ireland which was in itself calculated to attain the object in view; and he entirely agreed with his hon. and gallant Friend that there was a necessity for some means of putting pressure upon the baronial presentment sessions in order to make them vote the works for relief. The other day there had appeared in The Freeman's Journal a detailed account of the way in which the baronial presentment sessions came to grief in one of the most distressed counties in the West of Ireland. There were only summoned to the session on the occasion in question six representatives of the cesspayers, while the landlord interest came for miles and miles from all parts of the county around. The result of their deliberations was to throw out almost the whole of the works which had been pressed upon their acceptance; and it was openly stated that, inasmuch as the proposed works would cast a certain burden upon the estates of the landlords, they were exceedingly difficult of being persuaded of their necessity. The vote of the cesspayers having been reduced to a nullity, the proposal for the relief works was rejected. Now, it was through these relief works alone that any sensible alleviation of the existing distress would be made by the Government scheme. Relief by means of loan to one person for the improvement of his estate had already, to a large extent, been proved to be a failure, so far as the relief of distress was concerned; for, after so much had been expended in materials, so much in the supervision of labour, &c, but a comparatively small portion of the fund lent to the proprietor for the improvement of his estate remained to be expended in the employment of that ever wretched class of labourers. He was afraid, therefore, that a very small portion of the sums advanced to landed proprietors would really go to meet the distress then prevalent in Ireland. He did not at all accuse the landed proprietors of trifling with the distress, or unduly turning aside the funds from their proper application. But the landed proprietor, when he borrowed money, would have to look to that application of it which would tend to recoup him for his outlay; and, in a large percentage of cases, the application of the Government funds, which would repay the landlord best, would not be that which would go directly to the relief of a starving neighbourhood. Practically, as he had said before, in an enormous number of cases, the scheme for relief by means of the improvement of estates had already broken down and proved to be a thorough failure. It was through the employment of labour on works undertaken under Government control that the relief could reach distressed persons; and if the Government did not extend the system under the Boards of Works, if they did not apply some means, and, in case of necessity, a vigorous stimulus to the baronial presentment sessions, that portion of their scheme would break down also. If scenes like the fiasco in the baronial sessions to which he had referred were to be repeated, and there were to be no proper means of forcing the baronial presentment sessions to do their work in the present crisis, then he maintained that both portions of the Government scheme would prove deplorable failures.

MR. ERRINGTON

said, he hoped that the Chief Secretary for Ireland would give the Committee some idea as to the amount of money passed at the baronial sessions. He expressed his regret that not only upon that point, but upon others, they wore without any information. He had moved for Returns of the amounts applied for and granted in the various Poor Law Unions; but though the Returns had been ordered no information was yet forthcoming. A great deal of the efficiency of the relief measures would depend on the accurate knowledge which might be obtained as to the progress of the relief works; and he could not help saying that there seemed to be a considerable want of appreciation on the part of the Government of the importance of the present crisis, since no attempt had been made by them to afford information of that kind. He also hoped that the Chief Secretary for Ireland would agree to furnish another Return of which he had given him Notice in the course of the evening. He trusted that the Returns, which would show the amount of the loans to the various Boards of Guardians, sanitary authorities, and landlords, would also prove that the system had worked well, to a certain extent, in affording relief.

MR. J. LOWTHER

hoped that the information asked for by the hon. Member for Longford County would be in the hands of hon. Members very shortly. With regard to the questions of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan), the engineers appointed were for the purpose of expediting, as far as possible, investigations of a preliminary character in regard to those works for which loans were required, and of superintending also the works in progress. If the hon. and gallant Member asked for a detailed statement with regard to their work he would see how far this could be done; but there were some difficulties in the way of the Returns. The hon. Member for Dungarvan had, as he understood, asked for information with regard to the power possessed by the Government of compelling the baronial sessions to make a presentment. No such power existed, and he thought it would be a very unreasonable one for the Government to seek to obtain. Up to that time no money had been advanced upon the recommendation of the baronial presentment sessions by the Board of Works.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, if he was to understand that no money had been sanctioned for expenditure by the baronies up to that moment, he would like to know when it would be sanctioned?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, that until the Government had gone carefully into all the applications by landowners, sanitary authorities, and others, up to the 29th of February inclusive, it would be impossible for them fully to inform themselves as to the requirements of each locality. Of course, no unnecessary delay would take place.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, he had not asked anything about the duties of the engineers to the Board of Works. As far as he knew, they had been working very well. His questions related to the baronial presentment sessions. What he wanted to know was whether the presentment of the sessions were sanctioned, and when hon. Members would have in their hands a Return showing that they were sanctioned. Hon. Members would not be able to talk to their constituents on that important subject during the Recess unless a Return of the presentments made by the different baronial presentment sessions were placed on the Table of the House within a fortnight.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, he hoped that, within the time named by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, the information would be forthcoming.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he should be glad of information concerning these grants to landlords. He would also like to know what machinery was in existence for spending the money. It did not appear to him that there was to be any check at all; neither was there any provision for the employment of persons in distress.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, he should like to know what had been done with respect to the Board of Works in Ireland? Lord Lansdowne's Report to the Treasury in 1872 condemned the then constitution of that body, and the manner in which their administrative duties were discharged. The Departmental Committee appointed in 1877 had reported that the working of the Board was most unsatisfactory, and had, in practice, totally failed. Various recommendations had been made by the Commissioners for the re-organization of the Board, and suggestions which, if adopted, would have facilitated the administrative operations of that most important Board. Yet though, as he believed, that Report had been sent to the Treasury some throe years ago, nothing had been done by the Government. He thought, under those circumstances, before the Committee sanctioned the Supplementary Vote of £2,000, some satisfactory explanation should be given why these recommendations and suggestions thus made by the Committee had been disregarded. The importance, at the present time, of facilitating and supplying the manner of obtaining loans in respect to the progress of Ireland, so far as either landlords or tenants were concerned, could not be over-estimated. Yet, as had been shown, the operations of the Board were fettered by some 300 Acts of Parliament of a confused and contradictory character, which prevented the free working of that body. In point of fact, any landowner who applied for a loan to the Board of Works had it present to his mind that the expense would be of a very serious character, and that he was about to present an application to a body, whose solicitor even was doubtful and uncertain as to the powers vested in them by Statute. In the cases of many of the loans there were searches as to title and incumbrances, which ought to be dispensed with as recommended. Why should not priority be given to the charges in all cases similar to that which existed in the case of land improvement loans? He trusted that the Committee would receive some intimation from the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury as to how it was proposed to remedy this state of affairs. There was at that moment in Ireland a great lack of work; and it became, therefore, necessary to stimulate and encourage the employment of labour. Last year the House had been informed by the Secretary to the Treasury that a gentleman had been appointed, to consolidate the Acts of Parliament by which the action of the Board of Works was impeded, and that a Bill to deal with the whole question would, in a short time, be presented to Parliament. But they had already made some advance into the present Session, and no Bill had been presented. He had, therefore, asked to be enlightened by the Secretary to the Treasury with respect to this subject; and he found that, as a matter of fact, the gentleman employed upon the consolidation of the Acts of Parliament had only got half through his work. Now, if a gentleman of the requisite ability had been employed for more than a year and a half in attempting to consolidate these Statutes, how could it be expected that a landowner should apply for a loan to authorities who were ignorant of the extent of their powers? How could he be enabled to approach a body which had 300 Acts of Parliament to clog its action. Under these circumstances, he considered that the Committee were entitled to receive from the Secretary to the Treasury some further information before the Vote was agreed to.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he was able to give some information to the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. P. Martin). He would beg to remind him that there was a great difficulty attending the consolidation of 300 Acts of Parliament, and that it was a matter that required very careful and lengthy consideration. The course the Government had taken was an unavoidable one, and the work of consolidation had been referred to a most competent member of the Legal Profession, who had been employed upon that work for nearly a year, and had only just completed about half the work. If the hon. and learned Member had been aware of the size of these Acts, he felt sure that he would not have made the remarks that he had. But he would remind the Committee that the question of consolidation was apart from that under the consideration of the Government. The question before them was whether there should be a re-organization of the Board of Works in Ireland or not. He had stated last year that the Government were about to consider that question in accordance with the suggestions of the Committee that inquired into the subject. The hon. and learned Member had referred to that Committee as having sat three years ago. They did, in fact, sit two years ago, and their Report was only received about 18 months since. At this moment a statement was being drawn up upon the subject, in order that it might be submitted to the House of Commons, and he hoped and believed that that statement would contain a satisfactory solution of the question. He was sure that the Committee would agree that the question of there-organization of the Board of Works was most inopportune at this time, in view of the prevailing distress in Ireland. If the Committee would allow him, he should like to call their attention to the fact that the present was not the occasion for entering into these questions for another reason. They were now discussing the Supplementary Estimates, and he begged to submit that they were hardly in a position to criticize the formation or the constitution of the Board of Public Works in Ireland. The question submitted to the Committee was, whether sanction should be given for the employment of an additional number of engineers for the purpose of carrying out—whether rightly or wrongly he would not say—what the House had agreed upon in the terms of the Relief of Distress (Ireland) Bill; and they had also to consider whether salaries to the amount of £2,000 should be voted to pay for the additional work thrown on the Board of Works. He deprecated entering into the questions referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Kilkenny County, for discussion on them would much more properly come under the consideration of the Estimates themselves.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, that the matter to which he had referred was too grave and of too much importance to be thus lightly dealt with. The Secretary to the Treasury had told them last year that this Bill for the consolidation of these Acts of Parliament was prepared and ready to be laid before the House.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he must ask the Committee to be allowed to explain. He might have said that a Bill was in course of preparation; but he begged to deny that he had used the words imputed to him by the hon. and learned Member.

MR. P. MARTIN

begged to withdraw the remark. He must have misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. He certainly had considered that the Bill was ready, and he thought that a reference to Hansard would show that he was there represented to have stated what he had charged him with having said. He could not refrain from stating that, in view of the distress that was likely to prevail, he thought the Bill ought to have been now ready. He ventured to say that any professional gentleman competent could consolidate the number of Statutes in six months. He did not mean to cast the slightest imputation on the gentleman intrusted with the work. No doubt he was thoroughly competent. For his own part, he thought that the Treasury had made a great mistake with regard to this consolidation of Statutes. What was required was a repeal of the entire of the existing Acts, and a new and simple Code, as well as radical changes in the Board of Public Works. He knew, from practice, that the enactments in the present Acts were so confused and contradictory that nothing but a new Code could deal properly and effectively with the evil. One Act repealed another, and so on, to such an extent that reference was required to about 30 others in order to construe one. For this reason he desired he should not be considered as making any reflection on the gentleman who had the work of consolidation in hand. What he wanted to impress upon the Government was that the question was one of most serious importance; and he, therefore, begged them to urge the matter forward. With reference to the Board of Works, he had heard many gentlemen say that they were always most courteous and anxious to assist, but they seemed incapable of efficient action; and he thought that was a strong reason why no time should be wasted before a re-organization of the Department took place. He should like to get some assurance from the Secretary to the Treasury that, instead of dealing with consolidation of Statutes, the Government would deal boldly with the matter, cut the Gordian knot, and present to the country a new Code, and place the Board of Works on an efficient footing. It had been pointed out in "another place," that in point of fact, the Bill for the relief of distress in Ireland would have the effect of an enormous increase in the rates, and inevitably tend towards the impoverishment of the districts which were at present not classed as distressed districts in Ireland. The matter was of vital importance. It would be an immense boon to be able to get a mode of procedure simpler than at present, and to have a Board in such an efficient state that when applications were made for loans the exact costs attendant on the transactions might be known without any delay.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he could assure the hon. and learned Member that he was mistaken as to his remarks. It was simply impossible that he could have given the assurance to the House to which the hon. Member had referred, for the consolidation of the Statutes was not commenced until somewhere about the middle of last year. There were a large number of Statutes which had to be considered; and, in fact, it appeared now that their consolidation would take much longer than had been first anticipated. There was, no doubt, a good deal of difficulty attending the matter; and when the Government decided on the consolidation they resolved that it should be carried out carefully, in order that a useful Code might be laid before the country. He must remind the hon. and learned Member that there were two distinct questions raised; codification was only a part of the recommendation of the Committee. He had already stated, with regard to the other recommendations in which an alteration was proposed in the system of the Public Works Board in Ireland, that a Bill would be prepared for that purpose, in order that the suggestions of the Committee of 1878 might be carried into effect. Those suggestions must be considered in discussing the Estimates for public works generally; but all that the Government asked now was that an addition of £2,000 should be made to the Estimate for the purpose of carrying out the works which had already received the sanction of the House of Commons, and those which had been undertaken previously, pending the acceptance by the House of the Bill which had now become law.

MR. SHAW

said, that he regretted he had been unable to hear the former part of the discussion. His objection to the Vote was that it was not enough. He had a very strong objection to things being done in an imperfect manner. There had been great delay on the part of the Board of Works; and they had been now some five or six months getting that body to institute drainage and other useful works. It appeared to him that they had not half enough engineers nor officials generally. He was sure, if the Government had estimated this charge at £4,000 or £5,000, money would have been saved in the long run. It was not the time, he agreed, to consider the other question of re-organization. He saw no reason why the Bill containing the recommendations of the Committee had not before now been placed upon the Table of the House. The question which was being asked was—What was going to be done? They might soon find themselves in the midst of a General Election; and he did hope that before that time arrived some settlement might be come to in this matter. There was nothing that would increase the prosperity of Ireland so much as the reorganization of the Board of Works. The reason of so much delay was that whatever was proposed to be done was invariably reported adversely upon by one of these Boards. There was no independence about the Local Boards. He thought that the Board in Dublin ought to be represented in the House of Commons by a Member who should be responsible both to the House and the country. The engineers who were now required ought to be appointed independently of the Treasury. It was the Treasury, after all, that placed obstacles in the way and caused delay. Nothing could be got out of them, although their words were fair enough. The Irish people wore giving up applications for assistance to the Board of Works in despair, as they had so little done for them. Money was not wanted, but facilities for instituting works. He was confident that the sum proposed was too small.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, he would merely call attention to the fact that the Vote before the Committee was to meet a Supplementary Estimate for the coming year.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, he should like to understand exactly the remarks which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. J. Lowther). He understood, in the first place, that the Government had strictly discouraged expenditure by means of presentments at baronial sessions up to the present time. That expenditure had been already sanctioned by Parliament; but if he rightly understood the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, the reason for delay on the part of the Board of Works was obvious. In the second place, was he right in understanding that the Government were going to inspect carefully the manner in which the landowners were laying out the money advanced to them, in order that it might be properly expended on labour, and labour only?

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, if the hon. Member would bear in mind what took place on the discussion of the Bill, he would remember that it was then stated that loans to landlords and sanitary authorities were the first steps to giving employment. He must call attention to the fact that it was distinctly stated that it was only in the event of the landowners and sanitary authorities failing to provide adequate employment that baronial presentments were to be had recourse to. He had stated just before that he had only just been able to ascertain the amount applied for by landowners up to the 29th. ultimo, inclusive; and the time since that was so short that it was impossible that the Government could arrive at a conclusion as to whether the ways in which the money was proposed to be expended were desirable. It was, therefore, out of his power to afford the information to the Committee. The advertisements issued by the Board of Works distinctly stated the only ways in which the money to be obtained was to be expended.

Vote agreed to.