HC Deb 25 June 1880 vol 253 cc924-34

SUPPLY—considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a further sum, not exceeding£l,842,500, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, viz.:—

CIVIL SERVICES.
CLASS I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Great Britain: —
£
Royal Palaces 4,700
Marlborough House 300
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens 14,100
Houses of Parliament 4,500
Public Buildings 14,600
Furniture of Public Offices 2,000
Revenue Department Buildings 23,000
County Court Buildings 6,300
Metropolitan Police Courts 3,500
Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland 1,000
New Courts of Justice, &c. 14,000
Courts of Law and Offices, Edinburgh —
Surveys of the United Kingdom 16,700
Science and Art "Department Buildings 2,500
British Museum Buildings 600
Natural History Museum 3,700
Edinburgh University Buildings —
Harbours, &c. under Board of Trade 2,500
Rates on Government Property (Great Britain and Ireland) 25,000
Metropolitan Eire Brigade 2,500
Ireland:—
Public Buildings 18,600
Science and Art Museum, Dublin 200
Shannon Navigation 2,500
Abroad:—
Lighthouses Abroad 1,400
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings 2,700
CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.
Scotland:—
£
Board of Supervision 2,300
CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
England:—
£
Public Education 100,000
Science and Art Department 40,000
British Museum 10,000
£
National Gallery 2,200
National Portrait Gallery 300
Learned Societies, &c. 2,000
London University 1,400
Deep Sea Exploring Expedition (Report) 600
Sydney and Melbourne International Exhibitions 500
Scotland:—
Public Education 30,000
Universities, &c. 2,300
National Gallery 300
Ireland:—
Public Education 35,000
Teachers' Pension Office 300
Endowed Schools Commissioners 100
National Gallery 300
Queen's University 700
Queen's Colleges 1,700
Royal Irish Academy 250
CLASS V.—COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.
Diplomatic Services £ 29,000
Consular Services 31,000
Colonies, Grants in Aid 4,500
Orange River Territory and St. Helena 300
Suez Canal (British Directors) 200
Suppression of the Slave Trade 900
Tonnage Bounties, &c. 1,500
Cyprus Police 3,200
Subsidies to Telegraph Companies —
CLASS VI.—SUPERANNUATION AND RE-TIRED ALLOWANCES, AND GRATUITIES FOR CHARITABLE AND OTHER PURPOSES.
Superannuation and Retired Allowances £ 50,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c. 3,500
Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad 4,000
Pauper Lunatics, England —
Pauper Lunatics, Scotland —
Pauper Lunatics, Ireland —
Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland 2,100
Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiency —
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain 500
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland 550
CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL, AND TEMPORARY OBJECTS.
£
Temporary Commissions 7,000
Miscellaneous Expenses 800
Total for Civil Services £1 £1,212,500
REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
£
Customs 65,000
Inland Revenue 100,000
Post Office . 205,000
Post Office Packet Service . 100,000
Post Office Telegraphs . 170,000
Total for Revenue Departments £630,000
Grand Total £1,842,500
MR. PARNELL

said, he would now make the request to the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) to which he had already referred. He trusted that he would be able to give them an assurance that the Government would afford an opportunity for discussing the Vote as regards the Irish Constabulary.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, he could not at present state the day on which it would be possible to take the Vote. The hon. Member might, however, be sure that it would be taken shortly.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, he wished to ask a question of the noble Lord with regard to Class IV. (Ireland). He saw there was a Vote of £640 for the Endowed Schools Commissioners. There were, however, two sets of those in Ireland—there were, first, the Commissioners of Education, who were a permanent body; and then there was a temporary Commission of Inquiry into the condition of schools. Which Commissioners did the Vote affect? Secondly, he wished to say that the Endowed Schools Commissioners, appointed by the late Lord Lieutenant for a temporary purpose, of which he himself (Lord Randolph Churchill) was a Member, applied for an extension of time, as they found that they could not complete their task by the day fixed—namely, the 13th of June. They had applied, for that extension, and up to the last few days, as far as he could hear, there had been no answer. It was of importance that there should be such an extension. A representation had been made to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and no definite answer had been received. If that Irish Vote referred to that body, he should be glad to know if the extension of time applied for would be granted.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, that if the noble Lord would repeat his question on the Report of the Com- mittee he would be happy to give him a reply; but he could not do so now.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

said, that the Commission would have reported long ago had it not been for the dilatory proceedings of the Treasury. He believed that for three months there had been no answer.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, he wished to ask a question with regard to acquiring the consular buildings in the several capitals of Europe. The Berlin Embassy House was hired at a very high rate; and he thought it would be economy to buy it. At Cairo, also, the house was hired at a very high rate; and it was perfectly clear that they would always require a considerable establishment to be kept there. He should like to know whether any progress had been made with regard to purchasing those houses. The house at Brussels, also, was hired at an enormous rate. He would not trouble the noble Lord to give a direct answer, if he would give an assurance that the Vote would be brought on in time for fair discussion, and that it would not be put off till the end of the Session, when no time would be at disposal for discussing it.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, with respect to the inquiry that had just been made by the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), he would observe that, little as the Government liked those Votes on Account, they disliked Supplementary Votes still more. It was simply impossible to consider a larger Supplementary Vote at that time.

MR. P. MARTIN

said, with regard to the remarks which had fallen from the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill), he must say that the operations of the Commission he had referred to were exceedingly slow. They were looking forward to the time when they should see that Commission brought to a close. He did trust that, having been in existence over two years, no extension of time would be given to it. He felt sure that when the Treasury had carefully inquired into the matter no such extension would be granted.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, that with reference to Class III., referring to the Business of Ireland, he should like to ask the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Frederick Cavendish), or the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Forster), if the Government intended to carry out the promises of the late Government as regarded a convict establishment in county Galway, or if they would take steps to have that convict establishment filled from the county itself only, which at present was not the case? He wished to know if the present Government would redeem the promises of their Predecessors in that respect?

MR. MAGNIAC

said, he should like to call the attention of the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) to Item No. 18, the rating of Government property. It would, he believed, be a great assistance if they had separate rates for the different buildings. At present, the Assessment Committees were in difficulty when matters relating to those Government buildings were brought before them. He should like to be satisfied with regard to each locality in respect of such rates, as no comparison could be made now between the valuation put upon prisons and other Government buildings. He should also like to ask, with reference to the prison convict establishments, whether such establishments were under inspection, as was promised they should, by gentlemen acting independently of the prison authorities?

SIR HENRY HOLLAND

said, that he could answer the Question of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Magniac), as he was a member of a Committee during the late Government which had had convict establishments in England under consideration. Practically speaking, they were independent of the prison authorities; gentlemen were appointed who visited those establishments and reported upon them. With regard to Ireland, it was his intention to put a Question shortly to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Forster) upon the subject.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, with regard to Consular buildings, that was not the first time he had pressed the matter upon the attention of the Government. He had endeavoured to instil into the Government the necessity of buying the buildings, and thus making permanent establishments. They had lost already more than one opportunity of buying Embassy houses. Houses that could have been bought for £15,000 or £20,000, were now worth between £200,000and£300,000; and, there fore, a great saving would have been effected if those houses had been built or purchased. He did not think it would require a large Supplementary Vote; but he should like some assurance that, when there was a possibility of a real saving being effected, the Government would see what could be done with regard to the purchasing of buildings. He had gone fully into the question, and he found, in the new List, that we were paying £3,000 a-year at Berlin for a house which might be bought for £60,000 or £70,000, and probably they would have to pay £4,000 or £5,000 a-year for the same house, if it were let again. He hoped they would consider the necessity of making a large expenditure under that head, with a view of avoiding a much larger expenditure.

MR. RYLANDS

said, he could not allow the remarks of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) to pass without submitting to the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Frederick Cavendish)that there were a great many objections to what he had proposed. The hon. Gentleman had stated that we could purchase Continental Embassy houses on favourable terms; but he knew as well as he (Mr. Rylands) did, what enormous values were placed on them, and how it was almost impossible to get them. A large sum of money had been voted for the erection of the Embassy house at Constantinople— as much as £200,000—and when the money had been laid out the house was burnt down, no precautions having been taken to prevent such an accident occurring. All the apparatus was found to be out of order. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Lord would not readily fall in with the suggestion of his hon. Friend (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), in undertaking to spend money under that head. It should also be borne in mind, that the Embassy houses differed very much; in some places they were suitable for the requirements of the Embassy, and in other places not at all so.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, he could not quite agree with the hon. Member who had just sat down, for it was perfectly ridiculous that a house for the Embassy could not be hired at Constantinople; and if the one formerly belonging to the Embassy was burned down, that was owing entirely to the neglect of the Liberal Government which, refused to make proper provision in order to secure proper precautions. The present Embassy was a very cheap house, for the land was presented by the Sultan. It was built at a very cheap rate, and the cost of hire would be a very good interest on money expended. He did not usually agree with his hon. Friend opposite; but on this occasion he agreed with him, as he thought, rather less than usual. He hoped the noble Lord would consider this question carefully, because it was a very great economy to the country; and by judicious building they would save much expense.

LORD HENRY SCOTT

hoped that he would be pardoned for rising to address a few words to the Committee, but he happened to know something about this Embassy house; and, although a great sum of money had been laid out on it, he was able to say that it had been built very well, and of substantial materials. As to the fire, that was a matter of pure accident which might happen to any house. He merely wished to support the statement of his hon. Friend, that the money was very well invested in this way, and it was better to pay a reasonable sum for building an Embassy house, than to pay large yearly sums for hiring one.

MR. FINIGAN

wished to ask some Questions about works on the Shannon, in Ennis, at a place called Clare Castle. About six months back he was told by the Treasury that those works would be at once proceeded with, and he was innocent enough to believe them. Since then he had found that those promises were untrustworthy; and, on the other hand, he was much troubled by questions from his constituents why the Liberal Government did not carry out what the Conservative Government had promised, but had refused to do? This money was not money given by the Treasury at all, but it was simply money obtained from shipping coming into harbour. Therefore, he could not at all understand why the Treasury did not keep these promises and carry out these works. If he received a definite promise that that should be done, he would be very happy not to oppose the Vote; but in the meantime he should certainly feel obliged to do so. These works were in a distressed district, and, therefore, they ought to be conceded for the benefit of the population.

MR. NORTHCOTE

rose to support the statement made by his hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth in regard to the accommodation at the Embassies. With regard to that at Constantinople, he might be allowed to confirm the statement; and, for his part, he believed it to be a real economy of expenditure if the Government would see their way to purchase a permanent residence at most of the capitals. As an ex-diplomatist himself, he ventured to make an appeal to the noble Lord opposite to see if some scheme of this kind could not be carried out.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

said, for his part, he believed these proposals might better be supported as a matter of generosity to the Diplomatic Service than as a matter of economy. He believed the erection of buildings for the Embassies had not, as a rule, been found economical. There were certain cases, of course, in which it was almost necessary, or, at any rate, certainly desirable. Those cases were, from day to day, coming before the Treasury, and he had already had one or two laid before him, and he could assure hon. Members they had received the most careful consideration. At the same time, he could not see that it was the most economical way of providing Embassy houses. As to the Shannon works, they were being proceeded with as rapidly as possible; but from the nature of the work it was impossible to go on fast, because they were begun below and worked up the river. He could assure the hon. Member that the Board of Works were working very energetically at these works, and others similar.

MR. BLAKE

called attention to the fact that the Irish officials were paid considerably less than those in England for the same work, although provisions, clothing, lodging, and other expenses of the same kind were quite as heavy in Ireland as in England. At this moment there was an Irishman acting as warder in an English prison who had a brother filling the same post in Ireland, yet the English official had a much larger salary than his brother in Ireland; though he was assured only the other day that both he and his brother were in precisely the same position as regarded duties. A promise had been held out for a very long time that something should be done to improve the condition of the Irish officials, and he hoped the Government would now carry it out.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

wished to suggest to the Committee that these matters might be much better discussed on the individual Votes. He might also observe that, although they always heard the Committee of Supply was for the object of checking the expenditure of the Government, yet the tendency throughout this debate had been to increase the expenditure. With reference to the question just raised, he would be very happy to talk it over with the hon. Member.

An hon. MEMBER pointed out, that while it was proposed to spend £20,000 for Shannon works, the Government only took £2,500 for the next six weeks, while those weeks were the very best of the whole year. If the Government acted in this way, the greatest possible distrust would be aroused in the minds of everybody along the banks of the river. The Government ought to utilize every means in their power to give relief. These works were one of the best means for that purpose; and, therefore, he hoped the noble Lord would explain why he had not spent more than this £2,500.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, there was a reason why Irish Members should be more constant in discussing these finance questions than English Members, because the officials in the two countries were totally different. The English Members were able to go to the Departmental officers and discuss points of interest with them, and they always found those officials ready to pay great attention; but Irish Members had no means of communicating with those Boards in Ireland, or using any influence on them except through debates in the House of Commons. That was a misfortune; but it was, nevertheless, a fact that they had no opportunity of getting anything done from influence brought to bear, except through debates in that House. They were not, therefore, doing their duty to the constituents if they did not press these matters on the Government on every conceivable occasion. On the Report, he hoped the noble Lord would give them an answer as to convict establishments. That question had been reported on several times, and the late Government were very much in favour of the proposal. He also wished to call attention to the question of training schools. There were certain training establishments for teachers, the instruction given in which was very good; but, on the other hand, there was a strong dislike to sending children to be trained among persons who held certain denominational views, and it was held that the Government ought to deal with the question, so as to remove one great blot on their primary system. The change which had been recommended, also, would not cost any money—the only result being that more teachers might be trained.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

replied, that he could only repeat, what he had already said in reference to the Shannon works, that the contract had been entered into and the work begun. It was utterly impossible to say, however, how the work should be contracted. With respect to the convict establishments, he would be prepared to make a statement on the Report; and he did not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman would expect him to deal with the question fully at that moment.

MR. FINIGAN

said, he did not blame this Government or the late Government, but he did blame the Irish Board of Works which was a resident body. He had been given to understand that this Board of Works was to be re-constituted and made really a responsible body. Until this was done, he must quite agree with his hon. and gallant Friend opposite that they must appeal to the Government here. He might also add that the Clare Castle Harbour works were connected with the Shannon works. All that the place wanted was re-building, it having fallen out of repair for want of proper attention by the Irish Board of Works.

Question put, and agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.