SECOND READING. (Hansard, 9 June 1880)

§ MR. MELDON,
in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the measure was not by any means new to the former Parliament. The Bill was for the purpose of making an alteration in the system of legislation for the registration of births and deaths in Ireland. A similar measure was first brought be-fore Parliament in 1876, and similar Bills had been introduced in subsequent years. The object of the Bill, which contained altogether simply matters of detail, was to assimilate the law of the registration of births and deaths in Ireland to that of England. He believed there was no opposition to the measure, and, as the Bill dealt with mere details, he would not take up the time of the House by explaining them, but content himself with asking the House to give the measure a second reading.

§ DR. LYONS
said, he wished to make one or two observations with regard to the Bill. The matter was a very important one; but he did not wish to go into the whole subject now, but would endeavour to confine his remarks to practical points as much as possible. It appeared to him that one objection to the Bill was that it continued the present system of making it everybody's business to record the occurrence of a death, the duty of reporting a death devolving upon so many persons who might or might not have a special interest in recording the particular death. It also left open the time for recording a death for far too long a period—namely, seven days. He thought that was far too long a period, whether a person died from natural or from other causes, for the cause of death to remain unascertained for so long 1555 a period. In cases where there might be some suspicion as to the actual cause of death, he held that there ought to be an investigation within a very brief period, and he should say that such cases ought to be investigated within 24 hours after the death had taken place. The whole of this subject was so large that it ought to receive full consideration. The matter had been very fully considered in Continental legislation for a very considerable period of time, and now a competent person was appointed registrar of deaths on the Continent. This system had been worked for a considerable time in France, and it was also worked in Germany; and when they were proposing new legislation for Ireland on the subject, he certainly desired to see some mode introduced in that country of verifying deaths, and he believed that the only way in which this could be done was by appointing responsible and scientifically educated persons to perform the duties. He believed the most practical way would be that a report should be made, as was the case on the Continent, of the death to a medical officer specially charged with the duty, who should immediately visit the dead body and ascertain whether there were any circumstances about the case involving a suspicion that the death resulted from ill-treatment or foul play of any kind. In going into this subject, one would be surprised to find what a large number of instances of cases of suspicious deaths were reported, compared with the number that were inquired into before the system came into operation. The rules on the Continent were that a body was not allowed to be disturbed from the position in which death actually took place until the arrival of the officer— generally the medical officer of the nearest district—who examined the body and inquired into all the circumstances of the case, and then issued a certificate. If the officer saw grounds for making further inquiries, he reported accordingly. This might seem a very expensive process, but he did not think it was an unnecessary one. This was a very important medical question, and he thought, in any contemplated change of legislation, it was very desirable that the whole of this important subject should be inquired into, and provisions introduced which were in any way likely 1556 to meet the actual necessities of the case, before they proceeded in a manner which would close the subject practically for many years to come. This was one of those subjects that it was very difficult to get opened in that House; and now that the matter was before them, he should very much prefer that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee to make full inquiry into all the circumstances connected with the case. He did not believe that the registration of deaths in this country was likely to be satisfactory until the duties were placed in the hands of a responsible and specially educated person, who should be appointed to discharge them. They knew very well that the registration of deaths was now considered of the greatest importance, and it was held to be a most important practice in connection with life insurances. Therefore, the whole subject was one which very well deserved special consideration, and therefore he should like to see it referred to a Select Committee. He thought he had said enough to show that the subject was one which ought not to be legislated upon in a hasty manner, but one that required to be carefully considered and inquired into, and he hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman who had charge of the Bill would agree to refer it to a Select Committee.

MR. MACARTNEY
said, he thought the suggestion which had just been made to refer the Bill to a Select Committee was a most proper one, and he hoped the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) would accede to it. The subject was not entirely a new one, because it had been before the House already; but, at the same time, the subject was of great importance. They had had before the House that day a large number of Bills, some of them of great importance, which many hon. Gentlemen had expected would take a long time to settle, and they had now come to one which was really a most important Bill. The question pointed out by the hon. Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons) was one which deserved the most serious consideration. It seemed to him that the time in which notice of death was allowed to be given was very long, especially in the cases where the death might ultimately be the subject of inquiry. It certainly appeared to him a very long period in which to acquaint the registrar 1557 of a death, and a very much longer and, as he thought, an unnecessary length of time was given to inform the registrar of a birth. The period of 42 days was allowed in the case of a birth; and that 42 days should be allowed to give notice to the registrar, who usually lived in the immediate neighbourhood, he could not understand. If that was the English law, he hoped that the Irish law would not be assimilated to it. There was another question which affected the law of coroners, but as the coroner's was only a Court in a matter of doubt as to what was the cause of death, he did not think there ought to be any alteration of the law in that respect without a very great consideration. He did not think there ought to be any legislation without the matter being referred to a Select Committee, because, if the law was to be altered so as to make it completely satisfactory, the whole subject ought to be thoroughly considered and sifted. He certainly did not think it a conclusive reason for assimilating the law of Ireland to that of England, to state that such was the English law: and, therefore, if the hon. Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons) moved an Amendment to refer the Bill to a Select Committee after it had been read a second time, he would support him. If the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) would not accept that proposal, he felt obliged to oppose the second reading of the Bill.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOB IRELAND (Mr. LAW)
said, he agreed with the suggestion of his hon. Friend opposite, that the best course would be to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. Some very serious alterations in the law were proposed in the Bill. For instance, it was suggested that the fees payable to the registrar should be 2s. 6d. for a birth and 1s. for a death, instead of 1s. and 6d. respectively as at present. Such an increase in the fees might press very heavily on the poor. The Bill, however, was one which ought to be considered by a Select Committee, for it could not be satisfactorily discussed in a Committee of the Whole House. As had been admitted by the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon), it embodied a great mass of details which ought to be carefully considered; and he was satisfied that the hon. and learned Member would agree, that if they wanted 1558 to amend the law they ought to consider the best means of doing so. He could not assent to the second reading unless it were understood that the details of the Bill should afterwards be most carefully considered.

§ MAJOR NOLAN
said, he was perfectly willing to leave the general drawing up of a Bill of this kind to the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon), and was willing, in a renewal way, to allow him to draft any Bill on the subject that he chose, with one exception— namely, the question of expenses. Now, there were certain fees charged by this Bill, and he was very strongly opposed to any increase of fees whatever. He assured the House that whenever he attended a Poor Law Union in Ireland, although his colleagues were usually kind enough to approve of his efforts with respect to Acts that were passed in that House, they always objected to Acts which increased the poor rates, such as the Sanitary and other Acts. He told them that he voted against all those Acts, and he intended to do so on the present occasion if the fees were likely to lead to any increase of the rates. His own opinion was that the cost of the machinery of registration ought to be defrayed out of the Imperial resources. He thought, before the Bill went into Committee, they ought to have a better explanation of these fees.

§ MR. P. MARTIN
said, if the Bill was referred to a Select Committee, he trusted the Committee would not be considered bound to adopt the suggestions of the hon. Member for Dublin (Dr. Lyons), which were of an extremely elaborate character. It was true that precautions and vigilance such as he advocated might be advisable in France and other countries; but the present system appeared to have worked up to now extremely well in England. If the suggestions of the hon. Member were adopted, a large number of medical gentlemen would be required to be appointed. He would point out that the effect of many of the clauses would demand most careful consideration on the part of the Committee when appointed. As he read the Bill, it appeared to cast on the local rates portions of the charges that had heretofore been, and still ought to be, paid by the Treasury. Existing claims also were affected; for Clerks of Unions, who acted as super- 1559 intendent registrars, were placed in a worse position under the Bill than they were in now—in fact, the amount of the fees of the Clerks of Unions were diminished by one-half. Then, if the Bill should be referred to a Committee, there was another slight matter that would be carefully considered, and that was in respect of the declaration. According to the Act those declarations were to be made to a justice of the peace in Ireland under circumstances which required them to be made to a registrar in England. Now, it was an advantage to poor persons to have them made before a registrar, because poor persons could easily have access to the registrar; whereas, in many places in Ireland, it would be a serious matter to force persons to make a declaration before a magistrate; therefore, he hoped in that particular there would be an alternative.