§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in rising to move—
That the Standing Order relative to Supply or Ways and Means standing the first Order of the Day on Friday he read, and suspended.That the Committee of Supply he deferred until after the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on Business of the House (Order in Debate),1573 said, he was aware that this would be an unusual course; but it was not absolutely unprecedented. The step had been taken on one occasion at least, and it was obviously one which the House had it in its power to take. He was anxious to appeal to the House to agree to this course, because they had reached a period of the Session when it was very important that they should make progress with certain portions of their Business, which had to be got through by a particular date. There was a good deal of Business which it was essentially necessary to get through before Easter. They had spent much time—though he would not say it had not been well spent—in the discussion of a measure of great urgency and importance, and had now arrived at the close of February. It was really important, therefore, that they should not lose any time in making progress with their work, and he was strongly impressed with the necessity of concluding the debate before the close of this week. He should be sorry to propose a Sitting on Saturday; but, if necessary, he should not shrink from making even that proposal. He hoped, however, that, if his proposal were acceded to, the Business in hand would be completed within a comparatively short time. The discussion of the previous day was of a character which induced him to think that they were tolerably well agreed about the necessity for the Resolution which he had proposed. The questions of detail which still remained to be settled were not such as necessarily to give rise to a very lengthened debate. He trusted, therefore, that the whole of the Amendments would be got through in a very few hours. The Notice, on going into Committee of Supply, of the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. R. Power), which now stood first on the Paper, was, no doubt, one which excited a good deal of interest among the Irish Members. The hon. Member, however, originally stood no chance of being able to proceed with his Motion so as to have a division upon it, because the hon. Member for Chester (Mr. Raikes) stood before him with a Motion on which he intended to ask for a division. The hon. Member for Chester, however, had taken his Notice off the Paper that day, so that the Notice of the hon. Member for Waterford now held the first place on the Paper. If the Re- 1574 solution relating to Obstruction were discussed at a moderate length, it would not take up more time than would have been taken up by the discussion on the Motion of the hon. Member for Chester. The hon. Member for Waterford, therefore, if he consented to postpone his Notice, would have as early an opportunity of bringing his Motion forward as he would have had supposing the Notice of the hon. Member for Chester had not been withdrawn. He hoped the hon. Member for Waterford would consider these circumstances; but he did not, of course, know whether he had been successful in inducing him to see how advantageous a position had been secured for him. He trusted the House would agree to the course which he proposed should be taken, and allow the Order for going into Committee of Ways and Means to be suspended in order that the debate on the Amendment to his Resolution might be proceeded with.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he was sorry the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not followed the usual and desirable course. There were many occasions upon which it became necessary to call upon private Members to surrender the position which they had secured on the Notice Paper in order that Business of a very urgent nature might be considered; but, as far as he could recollect, it had always been the practice, when such a sacrifice was called for, to make an appeal to hon. Members who had Motions on the Paper. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: I did that.] Then there must be some misapprehension. He understood that, after the adjournment of the Debate was moved, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that it would be desirable that the debate should be resumed to-day, and that, therefore, he would move the suspension of the Standing Orders. The hon. Member for Waterford then rose, and said that he understood the right hon. Gentleman to make an appeal to him; and he (the Marquess of Hartington) understood the right hon. Gentleman to reply, "I make no appeal." In the present case there were very strong reasons why such an appeal should have been made; and he thought it was very unfortunate that a precedent should be established putting it in the power of a Government to move the suspension of the Standing Orders 1575 whenever they might have pressing Business of their own. The question relating to the Privileges of the House was one which, of course, affected the interests of the whole country, and hon. Members would naturally be disposed to second any appeal which might be made to them by the Leader of the House on such a subject. He trusted, however, that if the appeal now made were agreed to it would not be regarded as a precedent for the purpose of forwarding the ordinary Business of the Government. He regretted that there should be any misapprehension as to the fact of an appeal having been made to hon. Members by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the previous evening; and he was glad to be able to afford the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of explaining how the matter stood.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was sorry there should have been any misunderstanding. When he said last night that they were obliged to adjourn the debate he was anxious that it should be resumed the next evening; and he appealed to his hon. Friend the Member for Chester (Mr. Raikes), not publicly, but repeatedly in private, to give way and allow the debate to proceed. His hon. Friend declined several times to give way, and as his consent was that which was absolutely necessary, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no other course but to move the Amendment to suspend the Standing Orders. That would override the scruples, and overcome the coyness, of his hon. Friend, and, under these circumstances, he did not think it necessary to make an appeal to the hon. Member opposite (Mr. R. Power), because he stood in a position that rendered it rather advantageous to him to give way.
§ MR. R. POWERSir, I am sorry to say that I do not see the advantages of the position in which the right hon. Gentleman says he has placed me. I should have been very happy to have witnessed the interview between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Chester; but I may remind the House that the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) made an appeal to you, Sir, on the previous evening, whether the hon. Member for Chester had a right to move his Resolution at all; and it is still a doubtful matter whether he has a right to do so. However, 1576 Sir, as regards this question of appeal, I was rather surprised, last night, when the right hon. Gentleman refused to make an appeal to me. I took it for granted he would have done so, and at that hour of the night, when we were under more pleasant circumstances than at present, there is no knowing what might have happened. But the right hon. Gentleman having declared that he would not make an appeal to me, I came down here to-day determined not to yield to him. I am not sure, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was not right in not making this appeal; for, in this matter of appeals, there ought to be some reciprocity. Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House have made several appeals to the Treasury Bench, and I am not aware that any of these were acceded to. But what I object to in the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman is that he proposes, without precedent, to take from private Members a day in the very first month of the Session. Now, Sir, is there any great hurry about these Resolutions? I do not think there is, and I do not believe the Government think there is. The right hon. Gentleman himself has declared that there has been no obstruction this Session; and then, with a curious description of logic, brings forward these Resolutions. I have never thrown any obstacle willingly in the way of Public Business, and I shall be happy to give way on certain conditions. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member has, I am afraid, cheered a little too soon. He had better wait and see what the conditions are. One is that the Government should grant the Committee I ask for. That would be the shortest and quickest way to dispose of it. The other is that they should give me a day for the discussion of my Motion. I am not so unreasonable as to ask for a day before Easter. "We know very well that every day is engaged up to Easter; but between this and Easter many things may happen—accidents will happen in the best regulated Governments—and if the right hon. Gentleman will promise to give me a day after Easter, and if the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will give a similar undertaking, I shall be prepared to withdraw my Motion. I do, however, object to this infringement on the rights of private Members. What appears to me to be particularly hard is this. I 1577 came over on the first day of the Session to ballot for this day. Irish Members have a great deal of trouble and inconvenience in coming over to England. It is all very well for English Members who can come up from the country and go back the same night. But the Irish have a bit of water to cross that they call the mill pond, or the duck pond, and that is sometimes a great obstructive; indeed, so much so, that Irish Members very often reach London more dead than alive, and are really of no use for two or three days. Now, I particularly object that they should punish me for this. I have never been an obstructive, and probably that is the reason they punish me. Their policy is only in keeping with the fumbling and stumbling policy as to obstruction. Personally, I do not care whether you pass this Rule or not. I can tell you that you will never suspend me by these Rules, or by any other means. My own opinion is that they are the most milk-and-water arrangements ever proposed, and that one determined to obstruct would have no difficulty in driving a coach-and-six through them. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give me a day after Easter for the discussion of my Motion; and I think that is not an unreasonable request, considering the importance of my Motion and the utter insignificance of his.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the hon. Gentleman, no doubt, anticipated the answer which he felt it to be his duty to give to the suggestion that the Government should agree to his Motion—that he could not undertake to do so, nor could he promise to find a day for its discussion before Easter. The hon. Gentleman would, he thought, do well to try the ordinary means to procure a day for the purpose; and if he were not successful, he should be glad to see what could be done to meet his convenience later on in the Session.
§ MR. O'DONNELLwas glad to say any expectations which had been formed by Her Majesty's Government that they had strengthened their position in view of the coming Elections by these Resolutions were nullified by the ingenious spirit displayed by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, who last evening came forward and expressed himself more anti-obstructive than the Treasury 1578 Bench itself. As a specimen of the amiable consistency with which they were treated, he would refer to what had happened that morning.The Standardhad officially announced in its editorial columns that—
In consequence of the receipt of a telegram from Mr. Parnell, Mr. Biggar had resolved to disregard the expressed wish of the moderate section of the Home Rule Party and to oppose the utmost resistance in detail to the Resolutions on obstruction.That had been palmed off in some mysterious way on the editor ofThe Standard.Seeing the manner in which that respect able Ministerial journal had inserted such a calumny, he believed it must have been received from a very high authority indeed, and he should like to know what that authority was. The noble Lord the Postmaster General had, he might add, on the previous evening warned the House that the temper within its walls was nothing to that which existed out-of-doors with regard to obstruction; but he would show the House how the exasperation of the country, if it did really exist, was manufactured.The Globenewspaper, speaking of his own action, said that he had a few dozen Amendments to the Resolutions of the Government to propose on his own ac count; but that was an absolute false hood, for there were in all only six or seven Notices of Amendments set down in his name, two of which were verbal Amendments, and the others being practically alternative Amendments of a substantial character. Yet he was held up by a Ministerial journal as an Obstructionist. In spite of the patriotic attitude of the Leaders of the Opposition——
§ MR. SPEAKERpointed out that the hon. Member was not in Order in discussing these matters on a Motion relating to the Order of Business.
§ MR. O'DONNELLaccepted, of course, the Speaker's ruling. He did not, however, intend to refer to any matter outside the subject under discussion, and his object merely was to show that the Government had no claim to courtesy from that side of the House. He might add, in conclusion, that the subject which he had put upon the Paper that evening was of the most urgent character, and that he could not in these circumstances assent to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If, however, he was allowed to bring on his Motion he was 1579 willing to promise not to occupy more than seven minutes in doing so.
§ CAPTAIN PIM, who had also a Notice on the Paper, said, he should not oppose the Motion; but he gave way without making any conditions, in order to heap coals of fire on the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ MR. BIGGARconsidered that the reasons given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his Motion came with a bad grace from him. It was notorious that up to the present time the Government had wasted three nights of the Session with purely electioneering business. They had occupied a large amount of time in debating a question which was a perfect truism; and after doing so he did not see how they could ask to set aside a Motion of the greatest importance such as that relating to absenteeism in Ireland.
§ MR. DODSONregretted that the Government had not appealed in the usual way to hon. Members having Notices on the Paper to allow the discussion on the Business of the House to continue to-night. He trusted that the House would, without any further parley, come to a decision on the question.
§ MR. SHAWhoped that the House would decide without a division, and that the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be allowed to pass. He did not think the right course had been adopted; but he was quite sure it had been inadvertent. He was sure that the right hon. Gentleman had not deliberately cast a slight upon anyone, and he hoped that the hon. Member for Waterford would not go to a division.
§ MAJOR O'GORMANsaid, the conduct of the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) had been ruled by the Speaker to be irregular. He wished to ask if any Member, when the House was not in Committee, had the privilege of speaking three times on the same subject as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done?
§ MR. R. POWERexpressed his willingness to withdraw his Motion on the understanding given him by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ Motionagreed to.
§ Standing Order relative to Supply or Ways and Means standing the first Order of the Day on Friday read, and suspended.
1580§ Ordered,That the Committee of Supply be deferred until after the Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate on Business of the House (Order in Debate).—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)