HC Deb 25 February 1880 vol 250 cc1385-410

Order for Second Reading read.

MR. NORWOOD,

in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that before he proceeded to explain the clauses of the measure, he thought it right to remind the House of the circumstances under which the Bill appeared before them. In the Session of 1878 there were no less than four County Courts Bills introduced by private Members—one by the hon. Baronet the Member for South Warwickshire (Sir Eardley Wilmot), another by the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Rowley Hill), another by himself (Mr. Norwood), and a fourth by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Mr. J. Cowen). The three first Bills were very similar in purport, although they differed in certain details; and it was the pleasure of the House to refer them to a Select Committee. The Committee sat for 17 days and examined a considerable number of witnesses, among them being Lord Justice Bramwell and Mr. Hollams, both Members of the Judicature Commission, and various County Court Judges, mercantile men, and solicitors. After full deliberation, the Committee made their Report, the gist of which was—first, that there should be no increase in the exclusive jurisdiction of the County Courts; that there should be concurrent jurisdiction in an extended class of cases; that the salaries of the County Court Judges should be raised to £2,000 per annum; that they should be entitled to a pension amounting to two-thirds of their salary, after 20 years' service; that the Registrars should not be permitted to practice either in their own districts or elsewhere; and that the hon. Member for Hull be requested to bring in a Bill in conformity with those recommendations. The present Bill was precisely as it left the Select Committee. The provisions of it were simple. In the first place, there was no extension of exclusive jurisdiction in any form. The concurrent Common Law jurisdiction was extended from £50 to £200, actions for the recovery of rent from £50 to £200, and actions of ejectment from £20 to £40. The 4th clause of the Bill, and the one to which he attached the most importance, was in harmony with the recommendations of the Judicature Commission, and had received the approval of law reformers since the days of Lord Brougham. It was to the effect that, with the exception of Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty business, it should be competent for the plaintiff to bring his action, whatever the amount, in the County Court, with full power, as a right, for the defendant to move for the transfer of the case into the Superior Courts. As he regarded the matter, this was really the most important clause of the Bill. It knitted together, in the most complete way, the County Court system and that of the Supreme Court itself; and he was of opinion that if the Bill contained nothing more than this 4th clause it would be a very valuable and important measure. It was unnecessary that he should defend the course taken by the Bill, because not only was it approved of by the Select Committee, but the Government themselves had endorsed the views contained in the measure in the most marked manner. Last Session they took a somewhat unusual course, for notwithstanding the fact that the Bill sent down by the Select Committee was then before the House of Commons, the Government introduced a Bill in the House of Lords, through the Lord Chancellor, which was very similar in its character to the measure recommended by the Select Committee, although not altogether identical with the Bill he was now introducing. It was a very excellent measure, and contained many clauses that were not only unobjectionable, but would be of the utmost advantage. He might, therefore, claim that he had the approval of the highest Legal Officer in the Kingdom and of the Government on behalf of his Bill. One objection which he had heard raised against the Bill from time to time, and particularly from members of the Legal Profession, was this—"It is all very well to extend the jurisdiction; but we maintain your Judges are not competent to exercise such jurisdiction." They said, in effect, that the County Court Judges were an inferior class of men. He (Mr. Norwood) ventured to differ altogether from that opinion. He thought that some of the learned gentlemen who administered the law in the County Courts were quite equal to the Judges in the Superior Courts. He believed that the great bulk of those gentlemen were perfectly competent to discharge not only their present functions, but the extended jurisdiction which would be imposed on them by this Bill. If, as he feared it might be the case, there were some gentlemen who were not so learned or able as might be wished, he could only say that the fault was not in the County Court system, but in those upon whom devolved the responsibility of appointing the Judges. Of course, he could not speak from personal knowledge of the qualifications of those gentlemen. He was only a layman, and was, therefore, not competent to form an opinion. He was bound, however, to admit that appointments were occasionally made to the County Court Bench which met with almost universal reprobation from those who were best qualified to form an opinion—namely, the Bar itself. He did not allude to any one Lord Chancellor, or to any one Party in politics more than another; but it was very painful—more than painful, it was a serious injury to the administration of justice—that from time to time unknown and incompetent men should be appointed instead of the best men available. There was another cause why sometimes the County Court appointments were not satisfactory, and that was that the salaries paid to those gentlemen did not give that large choice to the Lord Chancellor which he would otherwise possess. He (Mr. Norwood) thought himself that the present salary of £1,500 a-year was scarcely sufficient to induce a gentleman, who had had a most expensive education and training, to sacrifice his prospects at the Bar at a comparatively early period of life. It was, therefore, notorious that when they had satisfactory appointments—and he repeated again that able and learned men did exist on the County Court Bench—they were too frequently men who had passed the prime of life, who wished for rest and retirement, and who therefore accepted a position of comparative ease, which, under other circumstances, they would not have consented to occupy. The question really was this—was it not a matter of expediency, as well as justice, that they should remunerate the County Court Judges somewhat more handsomely? There were 57 County Court Judges, who received £1,500 a-year. Three or four of that number had £1,800 a-year under an old rule, which came into operation many years ago. The utmost burden the present proposal would place upon the Consolidated Fund would be £27,300 a-year if every Judge were advanced to £2,000 a-year. But it was in evidence that it would be easy for the Lord Chancellor, with the power which he now possessed, to reduce the number of Judges by a re-arrangement of the existing Circuits, which would make a great reduction in the amount of extra charge that would be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. He might point out, as a matter of justice to the present Judges, that they had no increase at all in their salaries since the year 1865, and yet the amount of extra work thrown upon them had been very great. Between the years 1865 and 1878, no less than 32 additional Statutes had been passed, which threw extra duties upon the County Courts. Under the Bankruptcy Law, as consolidated in 1869, the entire burden, as far as the Provinces were concerned, of the administration of the Bankruptcy Law devolved upon the County Courts. In point of fact, those Courts had this unique jurisdiction—that the Judge himself was competent to decide all questions of law which arose out of the administration of the Statute. That fact alone was, he thought, quite sufficient to show the importance of the functions exercised by the Judges. He was afraid that he himself had been a guilty person, inasmuch as he had been instrumental in throwing additional labours upon them, in respect to the two Bills he had introduced giving Admiralty jurisdiction. He had then proposed a clause to increase the salaries of the County Court Judges by £500 a-year; but it was withdrawn on an assurance from the Government that the case of these gentlemen would receive full consideration. In 1869 a Motion was made by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) that £300 additional should be given, and the proposition was seconded by a right hon. Gentleman who now occupied the important position of Home Secretary, and who advocated the proposed increase as a matter of justice to the Judges. He had not dwelt longer upon this point than he considered to be necessary to place the question fully before the House; but he wished the House to bear in mind that the business of the County Courts had greatly increased of late years. The increase in the amount derived from County Court fees since 1865 amounted to £150,000 per annum. The bankruptcy fees were not so easily ascertained; but he was assured that at least £20,000 a-year of surplus profit went into the Exchequer from that source alone. Then, again, all the cost of the old bankruptcy system was saved, and it amounted to £56,470 per annum; and if the additional jurisdiction was given under the Bill, there would, of course, be a large increase in the business of the County Courts, and the income derived from fees would grow in proportion. The gross disproportion which existed between the salaries of the Registrars on some of the chief County Court Circuits and those of the Judges deserved a passing remark. There were two or three Returns on this subject—one obtained by the hon. and learned Member for Durham (Mr. Herschell),and another by his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Mr. Morley). Prom these Returns it appeared that, in addition to the emoluments derived by some of the Registrars holding the office of High Bailiff, and that many of them were Registrars of the High Courts by virtue of holding the office of Registrar of the County Courts, the amount of fees derived by Registrars in large towns was in excess of the salary of the Judges. For instance, the two Registrars of the Birmingham Court, after paying for clerks and all outgoings, received £5,665, being a sum of£2,832 10s.each, or nearly double the salary of the Judge of the Birmingham County Court. The Registrar of the Bradford Court received £3,188, and the two Registrars of the Leeds Court £3,471, which gave them an average of £1,735 10s.each. At Newcastle, where there was only one Registrar, the fees amounted to £3,341, and in Nottingham the one Registrar received £1,909. Thus the chief officer of the Court received a fixed salary of £1,500 a-year, while the subordinate officer—the Registrar—was receiving, in some cases, nearly double. As he had said before, he had no wish to enter too fully into the details; but he must sub- mit that a fair case had been made out on behalf of a hard-working class of public servants, the vast majority of whom were able men, who discharged their duty well. Since their original appointment they had been called upon to perform many additional functions; and as those functions were of extreme value to the country, it was only right that the gentlemen who discharged them should receive the increased salaries proposed by the present Bill. He was of opinion that the additional sum which he proposed to give to the Judges—namely, the increase from£1,500 to £2,000 a-year, would be money well spent. That the County Courts were highly appreciated throughout the country at the present moment was shown by the fact that the number of suitors who resorted to them was increasing every year. He was of opinion that every subject of Her Majesty was entitled to have any case in which he was interested tried by a gentleman of undoubted judicial power and ability; and if that was not always the case at present one reason why it was not so was that the salary was not sufficient. If the proposals contained in the present Bill were adopted, and the salary were raised from £1,500 to £2,000, it would certainly open a much larger field of selection. There was only one other question to which he considered it necessary to allude, and that was the clause which would entitle the County Court Judges to a retiring pension, amounting to two-thirds of their salary, after 20 years' service. The position of a County Court Judge at this moment was this—that he could not obtain a retiring pension unless he made an affidavit that he was physically incompetent to discharge the duties of the office. He thought that was a very invidious position in which to place a public servant like a County Court Judge. It was, therefore, recommended that the County Court Judge, in reference to his retirement, should be in the same position as the Judges of the Superior Courts, and that, after the long service of 20 years, he should be entitled to a retiring pension amounting to two-thirds of his salary. In conclusion, he would only add that the present County Court system was working with extreme satisfaction. Upwards of l,000,000 plaints were introduced into the County Courts last year. The system brought justice to the very doors of the people, and the transactions were growing in numbers and importance every day. In the meanwhile, the price of agricultural and other produce was increasing. In point of fact, every article of consumption was increasing in value, and that was in itself an argument for giving an increase in the amount of concurrent jurisdiction. There was also another consideration which was of the greatest possible importance. It was well known that the block of business in the Superior Courts had been a matter of comment of late years. It had often been discussed, and it had been pointed out how seriously it interfered with the business of the country, and, at the same time, that it was undesirable to increase the number of the Judges of the Superior Courts. He would simply add that this measure, the Second Reading of which he now moved, would have a very distinct and beneficial effect in reducing the amount of business which now crowded the Superior Courts.

SIR EARDLEY WILMOT,

in seconding the Motion, congratulated his hon. Friend on the perseverance and ability which he had shown in dealing with this subject; but he could not congratulate Her Majesty's Government on the course they had thought proper to adopt with respect to the measure. In 1875 he introduced a Bill having for its object optional jurisdiction—that was to say, giving a plaintiff power in any case to sue in the County Court. He proposed that alteration in the law after having had an interview with the late Lord Brougham, the founder of County Courts, who was anxious to see that improvement adopted. He was, however, induced to withdraw the Bill on the assurance from the Secretary to the County Courts at the Treasury that the Government proposed in the ensuing Session to bring in a Bill to extend the jurisdiction of County Courts. That promise was not fulfilled. In 1877 he introduced again the same Bill; but it was opposed by the Attorney General, representing the Government, and the Second Reading was negatived without a division. He was sorry that his learned Friend the Attorney General had not more power in this matter, because he was sure that if it were left to him the question would have been settled long ago. He remembered, however, that Lord Selborne as Sir Roundell Palmer and Attorney General had stated that these things were all in the hands of the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney General being a mere dummy. In 1878 three Bills were introduced dealing with several branches of the subject, and, at the suggestion of the Attorney General, they were referred to a Select Committee. The Committee, of which he had the honour of being Chairman, sat for 17 days, and examined a vast number of witnesses, amongst whom were two gentlemen who were acting on the Superior Courts of Common Law Commission—Lord Justice Bramwell and Mr. Hollams, an eminent solicitor. After careful consideration, the Committee came to the conclusion that the jurisdiction of County Courts ought to be extended, that certain excluded subjects of action should be admitted, and that after 20 years' service the Judge should be entitled to a retiring pension. The result of their deliberations was embodied in a Bill, which, however, could not be passed at so late a period of the Session. In the next Session—namely, 1879, his hon. Friend the Member for Hull (Mr. Norwood) again introduced his Bill; but the Government met him by introducing a Bill of their own in the House of Lords, which, after receiving a Second Reading, was never heard of again. As a firm supporter of Her Majesty's Government, as one who approved highly of their foreign policy, he felt bound to say that they had not shown equal ability, energy, and determination in the administration of domestic affairs. Had they done so, with the powerful majority at their command, many of the social questions now awaiting legislation might have been satisfactorily dealt with long ago. The Criminal Code Bill, for instance, which was going to a Committee, might have had a chance, which it did not now possess, of being passed this Session. Another point upon which the Committee did not pronounce an opinion, but with respect to which he believed they were nearly all agreed, there being only one dissentient on the Committee, was the desirability of occasionally promoting County Court Judges to seats in the Superior Courts. That was frequently done in France and in America, and it would not only have the advantage of transferring experienced and able men from one Bench to another, but it would be a stimulus to the County Court Judges to beep themselves in legal matters up to the mark. He thought his hon. Friend the Member for Hull had very properly made his Bill applicable to all Courts of inferior jurisdiction; but if the House should think that the privileges of the Lord Mayor's Court and other local Courts ought to be retained, that was a question which might very fairly be dealt with in Committee. He had himself been for 18 years a County Court Judge, and he could bear testimony to the great responsibilities and labour devolving on the office; and he hoped the salary question would receive the most careful consideration from Her Majesty's Government, for he thought£2,000 a-year was not at all too much. The Bar of England opposed this increase of salary; but, in doing so, he thought they made a mistake. He earnestly hoped this important measure would receive the favourable consideration of Her Majesty's Government.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Norwood,.)

MR. ALDERMAN COTTON

said, that although he should refrain from moving the rejection of the measure, he could not agree that the County Courts were popular, and declared that, although they were "cheap," he might almost say they were "nasty." His object in rising was to say a few words in favour of the exemption of the Lord Mayor's Court of the City of London from the provisions of the Bill. That Court was one of the most expeditious in its action of any in the Kingdom, and its popularity with the citizens exceeded that of the suitors in the County Courts. It was one of the most ancient Courts in England, and had always stood well in the estimation of the commercial public. In 1873 it disposed of no fewer than 16,357 actions, attachments, and other suits. At that time the learned Judge who presided over the Court of Common Pleas, which was not so much blocked with business then as it was now, took offence at the Lord Mayor's Court, and, by prohibitions, prevented a large amount of business from passing into it. So much did this tell against the Lord Mayor's Court that the number of suits was reduced, in 1874, to 13,585; in 1875, to 8,629; and in 1876, to 8,548. The ac- tion of the Common Pleas was then put an end to by another Judge, who said that that Court had gone mad on the subject of the Lord Mayor's Court. The result was that, in 1877, the cases in the Lord Mayor's Court rose to 11,370; in 1878, to 12,975; and in 1879, to 14,016. These figures showed the great popularity and usefulness of the Court, and he felt sure that the House would hesitate before it interfered with a Tribunal which was so useful to the commercial body of the City of London. The power of attachment was in itself most useful to prevent great wrong being done. Instead of a uniform system of County Courts throughout the country, he should prefer a uniform system of Lord Mayor's Courts.

MR. B. WILLIAMS

admitted that the Lord Mayor's Court had exercised a salutary jurisdiction in civil cases. Other Courts had jurisdiction of a similar character, and even in the remote town that he had the honour to represent there was a Recorder's Court, the jurisdiction of which was not limited to any amount whatever. These Courts might be dealt with at the proper time; but the question now before the House was whether this Bill, which embodied a measure of reform that was loudly demanded in every populous district in the country, should pass into law. Formerly, he looked on these proposed changes with disfavour; but at last, in consideration of their general approval in the country, he had come to regard them with reluctant favour. Although, as a practising Common Law barrister, his own income would be considerably decreased by the passing of this Bill, yet its provisions were of such importance to the commercial and working classes that he would be wanting in public spirit if he refrained from expressing his approval. The theory existed that the Superior Courts ought to do substantially the legal work of the country; but that legal work had so grown, and had become so complicated, that the centralization of the law which had existed in this country since the Conquest would commence to cease to exist if this Bill became law. The Judicature Acts had not simplified procedure in any way, nor had they facilitated the obtaining of justice by the poor. On the contrary, what with counterclaims, interrogatories, appeals, and expensive references to official referees and arbitrators, those Acts had increased the expense of litigation. Again, the solicitors in London who were agents for country solicitors were naturally interested in bringing business to London, and the Courts at Westminster were crowded with cases which could much better be tried in the country. He regretted, also, to have to say that the Judges had shown a great dislike to being detained in Assize towns, and had consequently manifested a great tendency to transfer cases from the country to the Metropolis. The present system had also the effect of accumulating large masses of written or printed papers, with the inevitable result of delay and expense. This was not legislating in the interest of the poorer classes. Accordingly outside the House, and especially in all the great centres of commerce, there had arisen an irresistible demand for the extension of the County Court jurisdiction. As the people no longer hoped to get cheap and speedy justice from the Judges of the Superior Courts, they sought to obtain it from some other quarter. In his opinion, however, the transference of business from the Superior Courts to County Courts would be only cutting the knot and not solving it. At present the County Courts were not prepared for a very great increase of business, and he thought the system should be so amended by the Bill as to be more adapted for the increased jurisdiction proposed to be conferred. He would suggest that Judges of County Courts should hold quarterly sittings, in which all the waiting cases should be tried in their order of entry, as at the Assizes, so that there would be a kind of County Court Assizes. It was also a question for consideration whether some sort of pleading should not be introduced. The Lord Chancellor's Bill, by which it was proposed to increase the work of the County Court Judges, had not proposed also to increase their pay. It would have been necessary to do so, and also to choose the very best men available for the posts. On the whole, he supported the Bill of the hon. Member for Hull, though he intended to bring forward several Amendments in Committee. He hoped some delay would be granted, so that those who were interested in the question would have time to consider how the Bill could be best amended; but the time had come when something should be done to relieve the Superior Courts of some portion of their work, and to bring law and justice to the doors of the poor.

MR. WHEELHOUSE,

in moving that the Bill be road a second time that day six months, congratulated the hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Norwood) upon the clear and definite statement he had given of the objects of the Bill in introducing the measure; but, having said that, he was sorry to say that he could not agree with the views expressed by hon. Members who had taken part in the debate, except those advanced by the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Alderman Cotton). The Bill appeared to him (Mr. Wheelhouse) to be a Bill for the purpose of giving exclusive, or nearly exclusive, jurisdiction to the County Courts of this country, by taking away from the Assize Courts and the Courts of Nisi Prius the jurisdiction that had hitherto been assigned to them. He had not the slightest objection to the proposal to raise the salary of the County Court Judges from £1,500 to £2,000 a-year, if it was thought desirable; but lie strongly objected to the statement that if that was done the Lord Chancellor would have a better class of men to select from in making the nominations. He believed that the present County Court Judges were quite as good as any that would, be tempted to accept the office if the salary was raised as proposed. He had many objections to the measure; and one was that, although it was said the Bill would not interfere with the jurisdiction of other Tribunals, he believed it would practically sweep them away, and abolish what was called local jurisdiction. He believed that there were many local Courts, such as those of the Lord Mayor in London, the several Sheriffs and their Assessors, Courts of Venue, and such Courts as that of Passage at Liverpool, which did their work wonderfully well, with their jury of 12, following the rules of the Superior Courts at Westminster. Why should these be abolished, merely for the purpose of enlarging the jurisdiction of a Tribunal which was originally instituted for the recovery of small debts? He could see no motive whatever, nor the slightest necessity for such change. Reference had been made to the Judges, and on that point he wished to make a few observations. No doubt, there were one or two splendid exceptions to the general rule, and he did not know why he should not mention one of them, and that was the Judge of the Bradford County Court, Mr. Daniel. He apprehended that no Judge who ever sat upon the Bench did his work more judicially and more carefully than he did; but that was not the character of all the County Court Judges in England. There were, in fact, many instances in which the County Court Judge was individually not popular in his district, and there were charges made against them, now and again, of giving undue preference. Some of them had their sons or nephews everlastingly practising before them; and it was said occasionally, whether rightly or wrongly, it was not for him to say, that the verdict, in too many such cases, was very apt "to follow the son." If the popularity of County Courts was referred to, it seemed to him to simply amount to this—that the poorer classes had no other means of getting that which was due to them. Now, if anyone went into a County Court, especially in a large provincial town, he would very often, though by no means always, find it dirty and unclean, and filled with a number of people against whom they would not brush if they could possibly avoid it; and, so far from their being popular with the heads of the Profession, he knew that nearly every solicitor of the highest note or repute in the United Kingdom objected to go into them if he could possibly avoid doing so. As to the increase of business in County Courts, it was due to the fact that many persons knew perfectly well that if they dared to go to the higher Courts with such inquiries they might have to pay a large amount of costs. But was that justice? No; it was merely sending a man to the Court perforce, and to which Court he did not wish to go, merely because it might suit the other side to force him to that Tribunal. It was idle, therefore, to speak of the County Courts as being as popular as the Assize Courts or the Courts of Nisi Prius generally. They were told that this Bill was intended to benefit that class of people which, somehow or other, they heard of pretty often theoretically in this place; but about whose existence as litigants, except as defendants for small sums, they did not hear much anywhere; and to say that it was to be a benefit to the poorer classes of this country to raise the jurisdiction of County Courts from £50 to £200 was really, with all due deference, to actually put the rich man himself in the position of the poor man, and to force him down by the action of the screw. If any man was obliged to sue for a sum less than £200 in one jurisdiction alone, all he had got to say was that was a hardship upon him, and especially if that jurisdiction was one in which the Judge very often sat alone, and in which, when assisted at all, he had a jury of only five, which was not the number in a case at Nisi Prius. For his own part, he would rather not go to such a Tribunal, if he could help it, however much he might respect the individual Judge. They were given to understand that great alterations would have to be made in the Bill in Committee, if it was allowed to pass the Second Reading. He thought it would be better not to pass the Second Reading until they had increased knowledge beyond what they at present possessed of the intended provisions which were to be inserted. He very much objected to skeleton Bills, where they did not know precisely what they were doing, and still less knew what they were to expect would be put into the measure hereafter. In his opinion, it was infinitely preferable that Bills of this character should be in the hands of the Government, who would be responsible for them, rather than that of a private Member; and there being all the objections to this measure which he pointed out, he thought he was justified, under the circumstances, in moving its rejection.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(Mr. Wheelhouse.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

MR. HIBBERT

said, he was not surprised at the speech of the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down, because it was quite in accordance with every speech the hon. and learned Member made when measures of progress were brought before the House. It was, however, to say the least of it, singular to argue against the extension of the jurisdiction of County Courts because the places in which they were held were dirty and unattractive to the public. This was a great measure, and one of great importance as regarded the interests of the people of this country. If the Courts were in a dirty and unsatisfactory state the attention of the Government ought to be called to the matter, the Courts being entirely under their management, with a view to the necessary improvements being effected. When, however, the hon. and learned Member argued that the County Courts were not popular, he took a view which was not held by many Members of the House. If they only looked at the great progress those Courts had made, with respect to the amount of business they had done since they were established many years ago, they could only come to the conclusion that they were ably performing their duties, and were most popular Courts in the eyes of the people of this country. As showing the advance which the County Courts had been making in the amount of their business and in popularity, he would quote some statistics, from which it appeared that in the year 1850 the number of plaints entered in the County Courts was 390,000; in 1866, when there was an increased jurisdiction given to them, it was 872,000; in 1877 it was 1,024,000. It was impossible that there should have been such an increase if the people had not been satisfied that the Courts were fairly and properly dealing with the cases before them. Again, an equally strong proof of their popularity was found in the fact that the amount of money involved in the cases had advanced from £2,052,000 in 1866 to £3,330,000 in the last year of the Return. To the Committee which sat two years ago, Memorials were presented from most of the commercial bodies of England, and from various incorporated law societies, in favour of increasing the jurisdiction of the County Courts. Therefore, it might be concluded that these Courts were doing a large and good work, which justified the supporters of the Bill in asking the House to assent to the Second Reading of the Bill by which it was proposed to extend their jurisdiction. From time to time increased jurisdiction had been conferred on the Courts. Prom 1865 to 1878 no fewer than 32 Acts of Parliament had been passed, conferring new and extended powers—some more and some less. Among these powers, jurisdiction had been given in equity to a limited extent, and in 1877 they found that these Courts had 613 equity cases before them. In 1867, another jurisdiction, which showed more than anything else the confidence which the Judges had in these Courts, was conferred, when power was given to the Judges of the Superior Courts to send cases to the County Courts to be tried. In 1877, no fewer than 770 cases of an important character were so remitted to the County Courts. In 1868, Admiralty jurisdiction was given; and in 1877 there were 370 Admiralty cases considered by these Courts. In 1869, bankruptcy jurisdiction was transferred to them, and that transfer had been the means of saving between £50,000 and £60,000 a-year to the country. In 1877 there were 9,900 petitions in bankruptcy and insolvency, and 1,280 court debtor summonses considered by the County Courts. The House had been told that this Bill would injure the members of the Common Law Bar. It was very doubtful if such a result were at all likely to follow; but, at all events, the business of Parliament was to look to the interests of the public, which were certainly bound up in this proposal. His hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Wheelhouse) did not think that the proposal made in the Bill would benefit the poorer classes. But, even if that were so, he did not see why the classes just above the poorer classes, and also shopkeepers of the lower middle class, and even the more wealthy classes, should not have the advantage of cheap law. They knew that there was a great block of business in the Superior Courts, and this measure would afford them great relief. With regard to Clause 10 of the Bill, limiting the amount of costs to be allowed in certain actions, the fact was that that clause, with certain alterations made by the Solicitor General, was passed by the Select Committee unanimously. That clause was not meant to interfere with the few Local Courts, but was intended only to prevent them abusing the present system by the great costs they might bring on defendants, and he trusted the House would support it in Committee. He knew nothing about the City of London Court; but he was acquainted with the Courts in Lancashire to which this law was especially, directed, and great complaints were made by the poorer classes of the serious hardships which they suffered in those Courts. He had moved for a Return with respect to the solicitors costs in regard to cases of small amount in the Salford Hundred Court of Record; and he thought, when hon. Members examined it, they would agree that it was quite time that some limitation should be put upon the abuses which occurred in the Local Courts. He found, for instance, that for obtaining £15 the solicitor's costs were £47, to obtain £10 they were £42, to obtain £5, £24; and, again, in a case of £10, they were £61. In the cases taxed, as if tried in County Courts, on the other hand, to obtain £9 19s.,the taxed costs were £3 2s.8d.;to obtain £7 9s.they were £2 15s.2d.,and to obtain £5 they were £2 0s.8d.That comparison went far to justify a clause of that nature. Large questions would naturally go to the High Court of Justice, and this clause did not interfere with them at all, but dealt specially with Local Courts. As to the clauses dealing with the salaries and pensions of the County Court Judges, he believed the Solicitor General was in favour of what was proposed, and that the Attorney General was not unfavourable, though he feared the Government might not be willing to give its assent. But even the most economical Member of the House might support the clauses, because it was desirable that when good work was to be done it should be done by good men; and it was impossible to get good men without paying them good salaries. He was convinced that the amount received from the additional fees—to say nothing of bankruptcy fees—that would come in under this Bill, would more than make up for the proposed additions to the salaries. Last year the total cost of the County Court system was £583,483, and the amount received by the Exchequer £426,400, leaving £157,088 to be made up in other ways. Thus the County Courts contrasted in this respect favourably with the Superior Courts, the total expenditure upon the latter being £514,420, towards which the receipts in the way of fees, &c, were £249,056, leaving a balance to be made up of £265,354. Although there had been such a great increase of the business of the Courts, no increase in the salaries of the Judges had been made since 1855. In 1869, when bankruptcy business was transferred to the County Courts, he brought forward a Resolution in the House in favour of increasing the salaries by £300, and he was fortunate enough to be supported by his right hon. Friend who was now Home Secretary. Therefore, he could appeal to three Members of the Government—the Home Secretary, the Attorney General, and the Solicitor General—on this point, and say he hoped the Government might see its way to grant the increase proposed in the Bill. But, supposing the Treasury were not prepared to find the £25,000 that would be required for the purpose, the Lord Chancellor might reduce the Circuits, and save money by so doing. The Registrars and High Bailiffs had their incomes very much increased through fees; while the salaries of the Judges remained the same, and were, in many cases, much below the incomes received by the Registrars. For instance, while Mr. Daniell received a salary of £1,500, the Registrar of his Court received £3,128 last year. At Birmingham, while the Judge received £1,500, there were two Registrars who received between them more than £5,500. In Newcastle the Registrar received £3,341. Similar anomalies existed in other large towns; and there could be no doubt that, by a judicious improvement in this direction, an increase of the Judges' salaries might be effected without adding to the total expenditure. But if the Government were not prepared to grant a salary of £2,000 all round, they might do so in the case of the six Judges of the Metropolitan Courts, where the business done was of great importance, and also in eight Circuits connected with large towns, such as Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds. Of the remaining 25 Judges, those of 10 years' standing might receive £1,800 a-year, and the others an addition of £100 a-year. That plan would require something like £16,000. He trusted the Government would not only give their support to the proposal for increased jurisdiction, but be able to do what the Lord Chancellor did not propose to do last year, and give to a deserving body of men that increase of salary which he considered the work they performed well deserved.

MR. GREGORY,

as a Member of the Committee which had this Bill before it, adhered to the opinion he then formed that the Bill, taken generally, was a useful, he might almost say, a necessary measure. The County Courts were popular with his own Profession, and he knew the great advantage to the public of their institution and extension. But he thought this extension must be kept within reasonable limits. Clause 4 proposed what appeared to be the indefinite extension of the jurisdiction of these Courts; and that, he thought, was objectionable. That extended jurisdiction was proposed to be given not only with respect to Common Law; but to equity. He did not know whether he would object very much to the extension of the Common Law jurisdiction of these Courts, but to the proposed extension of their equity jurisdiction there were grave objections. Equitable jurisdiction involved the powers of injunction, recovery, and administration, and dealt with large masses of property. The power of injunction was a very large power indeed, and involved the immediate action of the Court. Injunctions were issued to meet immediate injuries or supposed injuries to property; and the Court might on the moment, by means of an injunction, and without having even heard the defendant, stop a building, stop the sailing of a ship, stop the recovery of a debt, stop an action, and exercise other powers almost indefinite in their results. Such powers put into the hands of a Local Court might produce the most serious consequences, and any proposal to that effect would require the gravest consideration. And so with regard to the other points to which he had referred. The Courts had not the machinery, or, in many cases, the knowledge or experience, for the exercise of those functions; and the opinion of many of the Judges of the County Courts was against the jurisdiction being extended to them. He should not object to the proposed increase in the salaries of the Judges; but before any such increase was granted the Judges should be required to do their work. It would be found that many of the Judges did not sit for more than four or five or six months in the year. If the number of Judges was diminished and the service was consolidated, and if the power of delegating the functions of the Judges was withdrawn from the Judges, it would be a proper thing to increase the salaries as proposed by the Bill. Delegation was at first intended merely for a temporary purpose; but in some cases the functions of the Judge had been delegated for months and years, and nothing was known of the persons to whom they were delegated. With these alterations, he cordially approved of the Bill.

MR. OSBORNE MORGAN

very much regretted that this Bill should have been opposed by the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Alderman Cotton), who, he thought, was hardly justified by the reasons he gave in opposing a measure of great public importance with reference to its action on the Lord Mayor's Court. He ventured to remind him that the Lord Mayor's Court was made for the public, not the public for the Lord Mayor's Court. As to the opposition of the hon. and learned Member for Leeds (Mr. Wheelhouse), that might be taken as a matter of course, seeing that he had opposed every single law reform which had been brought forward since he had held a seat in the House. He (Mr. Osborne Morgan) thought the principle of the Bill altogether right and sound. He believed in the principle of free trade injustice, and they ought to allow a plaintiff to launch his case in any Court which seemed to him best fitted for the purpose. He did not altogether like the idea of drawing a hard-and-fast line, and saying that an action for a certain amount should be tried in a County Court, but if for a large sum it must be tried elsewhere. A case involving only £100 might be more difficult than one involving £1,000. Owing to the indisposition of a friend, he had himself acted on one occasion as a County Court Judge, and it had taken him a whole morning to settle a case involving£2 10s.,and he now believed his decision was, after all, wrong. A great deal depended on the character of the Judge and also upon the Local Bar; much, also, must depend on the nature of the case to be tried. He hoped, with the aid of this Bill, County Courts would practically take the place of the Assizes. That would be one of the most valuable law reforms that could be conceived. Before that could be done, they must have men who were fit and who would do the work. They must have really good County Court Judges, and the only principle of their selection should bedetur digniori.The County Courts should not be places of refuge into which stranded "silks" without business, or briefless juniors without experience, might be pitchforked. If they could get a good Judge for £1,500, he did not see why they should pay him £2,000 a-year; but a good Judge was cheap at £2,000 a-year, while a bad Judge was dear at £200. Though they did not require men like Sir George Jessel or Lord Justice James to do County Court work, any more than they wanted razors to cut blocks of wood, it was in the highest degree necessary that they should have for Judges men who would maintain the efficiency of the Courts, and command the confidence of the suitors.

MR. SAMPSON LLOYD

thought the commercial community was very much indebted to his hon. Friend the Member for Hull for the great trouble he had taken to obtain an extension of the County Court system. The benefits of enlarged local jurisdiction were very much felt by those who were engaged in business, more particularly by the commercial public, who wanted, not so much elaborately good law, as the sound, sensible, and prompt settlement of the matters in dispute. It was better, in most cases, to get half or two-thirds of one's rights promptly than, after protracted litigation, being dragged from Court to Court, to obtain abstract justice with costs three or four times the amount. The results in these Courts had not only been prompt and economical, but the decisions had been highly satisfactory. It appeared from the statement of Lord Justice Bramwell that he had scarcely any appeals from County Courts. He was not afraid of the proposed extension of jurisdiction, even in equity; and as to salaries, he thoroughly agreed that a Judge should be well paid. Pensions, however, should be given with some caution. The system of superannuation was growing up very largely in the Public Service; and though it was only fair that workmen employed at moderate wages in the Dockyards and other such places in the country should have a provision for old age, he feared that an extension of the pension system to gentlemen earning considerable salaries might lead to very formidable claims. He should not, however, oppose the Bill, but should give it his support on account of the benefits which would be conferred on the community by it.

MR. DILLWYN,

while thinking that some extension of the jurisdiction of County Courts was desirable, very much feared that the block of business which was complained of as arising in London would, under the Bill, be transferred to the country, and that the large cases would be taken by preference, and injustice would thus be done to the ordinary class of suitors. He saw no provision in the Bill for remedying that evil. Paying the Judges higher salaries would not enable them to do more work, unless a new or improved machinery were provided, and this Bill did not supply that machinery. He should not, however, oppose the Bill; but he hoped if the Bill was read a second time a considerable interval would be allowed before it went into Committee, to enable hon. Members to consider what Amendments should be introduced.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, he would support the Second Reading of the Bill; but he objected to the section of the same which made it compulsory to bring all cases under £200 into the County Courts. He believed that if a defendant regarded his case as of sufficient importance to be brought into one of the higher Courts he should have power to remove it from the County Court. If an Amendment to that effect were not introduced he should vote against the third reading. He did not think that Lord Justice Bramwell could be cited as an authority on County Court appeals, because the latter would go to Courts of which he had not much cognizance. The block of business in the Courts originated in the Court of Appeal, where cases were more than a year in arrear. He thought it deserved consideration whether Appeal Judges should be allowed to go Circuit.

MR. ANDERSON

did not think in practice the difficulty suggested by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) would be found to exist, for the reason that the County Courts in Scotland, that had a much wider jurisdiction, and had, in many cases, a much larger amount of work to do than the English Courts, had never had the complaint made against them that small cases were allowed to stand over in favour of large ones; in fact, the contrary had been the case. His objection to the measure was that it went too far in one direction, and not far enough in another. So far as it was a Bill to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts it was very good indeed; but it should go further, because to limit the jurisdiction to £200 seemed to him perfectly absurd. The County Court, which was called the Sheriff Court in Scotland, could hear cases on matters affecting personal property to any amount. There was, in fact, no limit at all. Then why, he asked, should they limit the jurisdiction of the English County Courts? The Scotch Courts could even hear real estate cases up to £1,000; and that being the case he did not see why the jurisdiction of the English Courts should continue limited as it was, or even as it was proposed to be by this Bill. But, more than all this, while the Scotch County Courts had this wide jurisdiction they had also a criminal jurisdiction; and instead of the system under which these extensive powers were held by these inferior Courts working badly it worked extremely well. He would recommend the hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Norwood) to extend the jurisdiction much further than he proposed in the Bill, and that he should take the Scotch County Courts for his model. What he objected to in the Bill, however, was that it was sought to extend the salaries of the English County Court Judges to £2,000 a-year; and he objected because those functionaries in Scotland had no such salaries, notwithstanding that they had much wider jurisdiction, and many of them much more continuous work. There was, in most cases, he understood, not continuous work in England, but it existed in Scotland; and in spite of this and the great responsibility of the Judges these men were paid very inferior salaries indeed. Only in one or two cases was there such a thing as a salary of £1,500 a-year. He could not see, therefore, why there should be a very large and a uniform salary in the cases of these English County Court Judges. Surely it was a monstrous and absurd proposal that every Judge, without reference to the importance of the county or the work he had to do, or the responsibility that devolved upon him, should at once have his salary advanced to £2,000 a-year. He hoped the House would not tolerate such a thing. He did not like the pension clause; but he did not think it was so objectionable as the proposal to raise the salaries to £2,000 a-year, and to make that a uniform rate without reference to amount of work or responsibility.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir HARDINGE GIFFARD)

said, he had at first intended to allow the recond reading of this Bill to take place without any comment from him; but after the speeches which had been made he thought it right to say a few words. He could not at all agree with his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Den bighshire (Mr. Osborne Morgan) as to the practicability of dispensing with the Assize Courts. Indeed, if he thought the scheme proposed was meant to supersede the Assize Courts, and replace them by the County Courts, he would deem it his duty to oppose the Second Reading. He did not imagine, however, it would do that at all. He was strongly of opinion that the institution of Assize Courts and the bringing down of Judges in proper cases to the country was invaluable. It created a feeeling of confidence in the impartial administration of justice, quite independent of local influences, which it would be impossible to obtain in any other way. It would be a calamity to the public if the system of Assizes and Judges going to administer justice in the country were abolished. He was delighted to find, by the admissions on both sides of the House, that the County Court Judges were doing their work well and efficiently, and that the recent appointments had given satisfaction. The extension of the jurisdiction of County Courts was an experimental measure. What was proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. B. Williams) appeared to amount to a circuitous way of turning County Courts into a different form of superior Court, the resort to which the institution of County Courts was intended to avoid. What was desired in County Courts was speedy justice in cases not worth the greater cost of a more elaborate machinery. Still it might well be that an increased limit might be reached without interfering with the efficiency of the County Courts. With reference to the clauses proposing increase of salaries, it must be distinctly understood that if the Bill was read a second time it was with no sort of pledge or even suggestion on the part of the Government that the increase of salaries would be given. The Lord Chancellor would shortly propose a consolidation of County Court Acts, in connection with which this question might be considered. It must not be assumed that, because additional work was created for the Courts, therefore, as a matter of logic and necessity, there must be an increase in the salaries of the Judges. It might be—though he did not say it would.—that the re-arrangement would involve an increase in the number of the Judges, and not necessarily an increase in the salaries of the existing Judges; but these were matters it was impossible to speak of onà priorigrounds. The question must be considered by those who had the responsibility of considering the County Court system as a whole. Therefore, if the change proposed were to be made, it must be made upon its own merits, and upon the distinct understanding that the Government was in no way pledged to an increase of salaries. The only principle he assented to in not resisting the Second Reading of the Bill was that there was to be an extension, in certain circumstances, of the jurisdiction of these Courts; but how it was to be fenced, guarded, and restricted, was a matter that might be fairly dealt with in Committee.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, that it would be the worst economy, and in no way conducive to the interests of the public, to appoint incompetent persons as County Court Judges, and there was danger of such appointments being made if they went on extending the jurisdiction without raising the salaries. There were already appointments which did not appear to have been made with a due sense of the responsibility involved; and it would become a crying evil if such appointments were multiplied, and if the jurisdiction of the Courts were extended and Judges were selected for political or personal reasons rather than on account of their fitness to discharge the duties. He hoped the Government had not absolutely closed their ears to the appeal that would be made to them in connection with the money clauses of the Bill, but would be prepared to give a sufficient salary to obtain efficient men. He should support the Bill, and hoped the House would read it a second time.

MR. NORWOOD,

in reply, desired to remind some of the speakers that the Bill was now presented in the form in which it had been approved by a Select Committee. He ventured to hope that the Government would listen calmly to the appeal that would be made to the Treasury for additions to salaries which, he believed, would, when re-adjustment of Circuits was effected, not amount to more than £15,000 a-year. There might be such a thing as false economy in the administration of justice. He would only add that he was surprised at the opposition offered by the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Alderman Cotton).

MR. WHEELHOUSE

said, that, with the permission of the House, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave,withdrawn.

Main Question put, andagreed to.

Bill read a second time, andcommittedforTo-morrow.