§ SIR DAVID WEDDERBURN,in rising to call attention to the importance of conferring upon the people of India some measure of representation, either in the Legislative Councils, or otherwise, in order that the Indian Government may have greater facilities than those at present existing for ascertaining Native opinion upon public questions, said, he brought forward the question in redemption of a promise he had made, that if ever he again had a seat in the House he would lay it before Parliament. Last year he had no opportunity; but this Session had been more fortunate, and he was seeking now to redeem his pledge. He would not endeavour at that moment to extract a promise from the Government; nor did he intend to take the opinion of the House on the question. He should also wish in every way to deprecate Party bias, for he had, at every opportunity, asserted to the people of India that they had good and sincere friends on both sides of the House. At one time it appeared to him that a fair method of conferring representation upon the people of India would be to confer upon a few of the great centres of population in that country the privilege of sending Representatives 594 or Delegates to that House; but although that method had, doubtless, a good deal to recommend it, it was beset with many peculiar difficulties; and, upon mature reflection, it appeared to him that the most practical method would be to have representative Native Members in the Legislative Councils of India. It was, after all, these Legislative Councils—which must not be confounded with the Executive Councils—that made the laws under which India was governed. At present these Councils were of such a nature that the representative element was excluded from them; and although the Native element was not entirely excluded the Natives were not elected by the people. Perhaps he might be permitted to state briefly what the constitution of the Legislative Council of Bombay was. It consisted of 13 Members. Of these there were nine officials, eight of them being Europeans, and comprising the Governor, the Commander-in-Chief, two of the Members of the Executive Council, the Chief Secretary to the Government, the Advocate General, and two Heads of Departments. These, with one other gentleman, constituted the European element. There were also four Natives, one of whom was a Native official. Of course, a Council so composed could not be regarded in any way as representative. Nevertheless, the non-official Members expressed their opinions, and occasionally an interesting and instructive debate arose. He held in his hand a Report of a meeting of the Bombay Legislative Council which took place in April last. Nine Members were present, two of whom were Native non-official Members. The debate was a long one, and the Native gentlemen, who took a very active part, stated a great many important facts in regard to the opinion of their countrymen on the question before the Council, which was that of irrigation. They moved as many as seven Amendments; but he regretted to say that, owing to the great preponderance of the official element, they met with no support, and every one of them was lost. Indeed, they were only supported by the Native unofficial Members. He could not help thinking that if there had been a few more of the same class in the Council the debate would have been more valuable and instructive, and that some of the Amendments incorporating the 595 Native view would have been adopted. On the other hand, he would cite the case of the Municipality of Bombay, where the representative principle had been thoroughly adopted. The Corporation of Bombay was, he believed, most popularly constituted, and consisted of 64 Members. Of these, 16 were nominated by the Government, 16 were elected by the Bench of Justices, and the remaining 32 were elected by the ratepayers who paid above a certain sum in direct taxation. Both Europeans and Natives were fully eligible to be elected upon the Corporation; but the affairs generally were in the hands of the Town Council, which was composed of 12 members nominated or elected from among the members of the Corporation. The power of initiating as well as of executing the decisions of the municipality was in the hands of the Municipal Commissioner. There were two classes of municipality—one known as the City Municipality, and the other as the Town Municipality. These two classes together had control and management of revenues, which amounted to a total of nearly £2,000,000. In Bombay, where the municipal constitution was more popular than in any other part of India, he had the highest authority for stating that the system had worked admirably well. A late Municipal Commissioner assured him that he only observed one failing in the working of the system, and that was a tendency to abstention on the part of the electors from voting—a failing, however, which would, doubtless, be cured by the lapse of time, and as the people became more accustomed to the arrangement. Two successive Governors of Bombay—the only two under whom this municipality had existed—had spoken in very high terms of its influence for good. Sir Richard Temple, in particular, said that in Bombay the municipal institutions would never fail, knowing, as he did, the public spirit and self-sacrificing spirit of the Members. In the case of these corporations and municipalities, it seemed to him (Sir David Wedderburn) that there already existed constituencies which might be made use of in extending this sort of representation to the Legislative Councils, and they might be fairly intrusted with the duty of electing a certain number of representatives. One of 596 the principles of the Government of India Bill of 1858, as introduced by the present Prime Minister, was to give Representatives to the principal centres of population. Under that Bill, it was proposed to have in the India Council five Representatives elected by the principal cities of the United Kingdom, and in the same spirit an arrangement might be made to give two Members to each of the Presidencies, and to some of the principal cities of the Empire. He thought the criticism and opinions of Members so elected would be of the utmost value on questions of finance when the Budget was submitted each year. He might quote many authorities for the belief that in matters of finance they ought to have authoritative expression of the feelings and wishes of the Natives. Sir Bartle Frere had drawn up with considerable elaboration a complete system of representation, with Local Councils, Municipal Councils, and arrangements for electing Members to send to the Legislative Council. After explaining the system at considerable length, Sir Bartle Frere went on to say that—
If two elected Members were sent up from each of the Provincial centres—of which I propose to make five altogether—to the Local Legislative Council, they would in every way greatly strengthen the Council, and give additional weight to its proceedings.A Commissioner of the Punjaub, in a letter toThe Times,pointed out that the conviction was deeply implanted in the mind of every Native of India who thought at all on the subject, that if the principle of representation in the Legislative Councils was fairly conceded, it would tend, in regard to expenditure, to introduce a more healthy tone than at present existed. A very learned and distinguished Native, speaking on the subject, said the Natives were prepared to understand the general working of the representative system; and he declared that double the amount of the deficit might be raised by the Natives if their prejudices were not affected, and if the taxation were arranged in a way more consistent with their feelings. In this way, he (Sir David Wedderburn) certainly thought the Government would find their hands greatly strengthened by the establishment of the representative system. Throughout India the people were fully alive to the difficulties under which the Rulers of that country laboured, 597 and their inability to understand and realize the feelings and requirements of those whom they were called on to govern. It was upon this practical difficulty, rather than upon any abstract question of justice to the taxpayers, that he would base the plea of giving them, without loss of time, representation in some modified form. The authorities on the subject whom he could quote were of the very highest class. Lord Minto, the Governor General of India, so long ago as the year 1807, spoke of the mutual ignorance of each other's motives, intentions, and acts in which Europeans and Natives were contented to live. According to Lord Minto, the chief impediment to the improvement of the Native races, and the chief disadvantage under which their European rulers laboured, was to be found in ignorance of each other's language and modes of thought. One of the first objects of the Government should be to assist them to understand each other. Another Governor General, Lord Mayo, said there were large districts in which men of sufficient ability and intelligence were willing to assist the Government, and what was wanted was to recognize that the principle of associating with each other whenever it was possible was for the interests of the country. Lord Mayo had also given an opinion on the subject that wherever possible the Natives should be consulted. Those were two Governors General belonging to opposite Parties; but in respect of their opinion as to the Natives of India in the conduct of affairs they were completely unanimous, as would be found in the case of nearly all the great Rulers of India. He should not attempt to sketch a scheme for the Government as to the mode of election further than to say that, to some extent, arrangements seemed to have been made already for such a purpose. The hon. Member concluded by quoting a passage from an address by Sir Charles Turner, Chief Justice of Madras, when presiding over the anniversary meeting at Presidency College, Madras, favourable to the principle of consultation with the Natives, and the raising of their condition to the stage which would enable them to take part in the responsibilities of government. He impressed upon the House and the Government that the time seemed to have come when, at least, they might make a commencement by con- 598 ferring the privileges he had indicated. There were Natives who had shown their complete power to appreciate what had been done for them in the use of the powers of self-government, and he thought the time had come for a wider extension of those privileges. As he had before intimated, he would not ask the House to express its opinion on the Resolution; but he hoped the Government would give that due attention to the subject which it deserved.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, that there was no question that representative institutions were dear to all Englishmen, and that they were all desirous of extending such institutions wherever it was possible to do so; but when they came to the case of India they had to remember what India was. It was not a country of one people, but a conglomeration of many peoples, differing in caste and religion, and having no cohesion whatever. Indeed, the only possible unit was the unit of the family. Therefore, as a basis of representation was altogether wanting, it would be impossible, taking India as a whole, at any rate for many years, to extend representative institutions to that country. Still, when people could be congregated in large masses, the case might be different; and there were municipalities in India, like that of Bombay, which were cases in point. In such instances the Natives had become associated with Europeans; they had become accustomed to European ideas, and had, so to speak, been educated into a condition which was pretty nearly ripe for some sort of self-government. He ventured to say that, so far as it was possible to extend their representative institutions, the Government of India, in what it had done of late years, was endeavouring to do so. That they would be glad to extend it further there could be no doubt whatever; because every extension of that principle tended to diminish the responsibility they themselves had to bear. He had been looking into the matter of municipalities, and found that there were 894, and within the limits of those governing bodies there were 12,000,000 people who were governed by them, and those bodies contained no less than three Natives to every one European. In a large number of cases the Natives were elected, and they did good work. In the Presidency towns there was also a large proportion 599 of Native Members in the municipal bodies. No doubt, those towns had come to partake very much more of a European character, the people being brought together, being engaged in common pursuits, and he thought the Natives had not shown much interest by voting, yet they selected good members who were zealous for the prosperity of the places in which they were resident. He believed in one case—that of Luck-now—only seven voters came to the poll. In Bombay, which town was the most favourable instance in India, it could not be said that a great number of the electors came forward to the poll; but it was said that, on the whole, they did elect good men, and those men undoubtedly did very good work in the Government. But when they wont beyond those large populations, when they went outside those Presidency towns and other municipalities, they got to people who were governed by the headmen of their villages, who did not know anything about Councils, and were pretty well content to be let alone, so long as they were not too much taxed. The great object the Government must bear in mind, therefore, for many years to come was this—that although they could not hope to introduce generally representative institutions in India, they should endeavour by every means in their power to get at the real feeling of the people of the country. One of the steps always taken for that purpose was this—whenever a Bill altering the law was brought in, it was published, translated into the Native languages, sent to the different Local Governments, and distributed to the district officers, who received instructions to elicit the Native feeling on the subject of the measure. A great step in advance was taken by the East India Council Act of 1861, by which it was provided that there should be official and non-official Members in each of the Legislative Councils. The Act did not say anything about the non-official Members being Natives; but, as a matter of fact, a large proportion of them were Natives. In the Legislative Council of Madras, out of seven non-official Members four were Natives. In the Legislative Council of Bombay, out of six non-official Members four were Natives; and in Bengal, out of seven non-official Members, five were Natives. In the Legislative Council of 600 the Governor General for India, out of seven non-official Members four were Natives, so that it might be said among the non-officials the Natives were very well represented. The hon. Member had made a suggestion—and it was the only practical suggestion he had made—that the municipal bodies should send representatives to the Legislative Councils. Well, he ventured to say at once that that was a proposition which was worthy of consideration. It was one he knew that had frequently been brought under the attention of the authorities in India, and it was one that he should not for a moment think of condemning; but, at the same time, there were certain practical difficulties that occurred to one in the way of carrying the proposal out. Very often the chairman of the municipal bodies in the Presidency towns was already a Member of the Legislative Council, and in that capacity had an opportunity of expressing the views of those over whom he presided. But if they were to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member, he was not quite sure they would attain all they desired to attain. On the one hand, there would be great difficulty in selecting. If they chose the most prominent men they were likely to have a Europeanized Native who would not represent the Native ideas. They would have a man with European ideas, but without sympathy with the great mass of the population. He would look at things with European rather than with Native eyes. On the other hand, if it were attempted to elect a simple Native, one or two practical difficulties presented themselves. He understood it was very often found that a Native selected in that way had the very greatest possible dislike to being called upon to leave the place where he was residing and to go to live in the Presidency towns. It was a change of climate which he disliked to make; and when he went to take a seat in the Council with the Governor General or with the Provincial Governor there was something a little abhorrent to the Native mind in opposing the authority of the Government; and when the Governor General said one thing the Native had the greatest possible difficulty in not saying that he agreed with him. In course of time that attitude of the Natives changed; he found that his opinion was invited, and after a time 601 such Natives were found very useful men for the purpose of consultation. To that extent the Government had already gone; further than that he doubted whether they could safely go. They would proceed in this matter, undoubtedly, by tentative steps. There were some who thought the Government had already proceeded too far. At any rate, they were careful not to press the matter beyond the point they thought they could reasonably aim at; and it must be recollected that the Natives in India, unlike those in many other countries, had freedom of speech and meeting, and, so long as they did not use decidedly seditious language, had perfect freedom of the Press, and they had thus many ways of making their views known to the Government. Therefore, he thought the hon. Member had exercised a very wise discretion in only throwing the subject out for discussion in the House, and not pressing his Resolution; but his suggestions, like all others that might be made by the House, would receive the careful attention of his Colleagues and himself.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, that although it would be very desirable to have the assistance of Natives in the administration, yet he was very much in doubt whether we had it in our power to get at the real feeling of the people. At all events, he could see difficulties in the way of a formidable character. Educated Natives were very much apt to caricature European ideas and to exaggerate the notions of freedom. He thought, as a rule, that those opinions were not the real opinions of the Natives. That applied to the Presidency towns, and he had no doubt it applied to other places. There was no part of India which contained more energetic people than the Punjab; but their representations were too frequently only the opinions of a very clever and active gentleman—a German Jew—who had set himself up at Lahore. In that respect it was really the case that they might be very much misled if opinion was represented more largely than it at present was by the class to which he alluded—the more educated and Europeanized Natives. However, there was room for improvement. He thought better representatives of the Natives might be found for the Council of the Governor General; but as regarded the 602 local Councils of Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, the Native Members were very active and very practical men, and they really exercised very considerable influence in the Council. So far it could not be said that the Native opinion was not to some degree represented. Then they came to the question of Native assistance in the government of the country. He himself had been educated in the school of paternal despotism; and he supposed that when there was a paternal despotism exercised by persons without prejudice, and who were under some control as to their action, that Government had many merits. But, on the other hand, the more they had experience of paternal despotism, the more he felt that it had its limits—the hand of the paternal despot could not be everywhere and do everything. In the course of ages they might have to hand over the government of the country to the people of India; and it was very desirable, therefore, he thought, that in anticipation of the change some preparation should be made in the way of the establishment of local self-governing institutions of a representative character—such institutions as were shown to have existed in the course of Indian history. Those institutions were existing in the Punjab when Alexander invaded it, and they were still to be found in some villages and towns. What he complained of was that they had not cherished those institutions as they might have done. The Mahomedan polity was of a democratic character, placing before all other principles the equality of man; and the old Hindoo States partook, to a great extent, of the character of European States some centuries ago, their Rulers not being absolutely free from the control exercised by their knights and foremost warriors. It seemed to him they might do a great deal in the way of recognizing and improving those popular institutions of the country which had existed until they were suppressed by our law. It was quite true that those institutions had developed a great many abuses, and a good many objections could be raised to them; and it was, no doubt, upon that account that by introducing their law and methods they thought they were making an improvement. Well, he thought they were wrong. Foreigners as they were, he did not think they had it in their power completely and tho- 603 roughly to administer the country in the way in which they desired; and he would much rather have imperfect local self-acting institutions, even if there were some imperfections, than attempt to govern by machinery stretched too far and attempting to do everything. A great many of the towns in India were administered by Municipalities, and many of the Natives of those places were intelligent and capable of managing their own affairs. As regarded the great Municipalities of Calcutta and Bombay, his impression was that the administration had not been very successful; up to a certain point he had thought it better to avoid any direct representation, and since that had been granted the elected members had not always been of the best character. As far as local institutions were concerned, their success had been tolerably good when tried upon a small scale; and when they were found to be unsatisfactory when tried on a large scale, surely it was their duty not to begin from above and to go downwards, but to begin at the bottom and gradually creep upwards. He believed they had in India the germ of institutions of a very superior kind. In the villages they could obtain a self-governing body, and in that respect there was a good work to be done by the Natives in India. The sphere of self-government might be gradually enlarged. Of late years the Natives in many districts had made their own rates, and provided themselves with roads and schools and introduced various modern appliances by means of local and district bodies; and what should be said to them was that there was no desire to take more money from them, but to give them greater facilities for raising money for themselves and further improving their districts. In several parts of the country with which he was acquainted the Natives gave an earnest of still further success; and, consequently, there was every reason to hope that the wishes expressed by his hon. Friend (Sir David Wedderburn) might be gradually realized in the future. It was absolutely necessary, however, that they should look to the whole of the people, and not to a small section. They might obtain their representatives from the richer class entirely; but if that were the case, it would, undoubtedly, be a great misfortune: therefore, great care should 604 be taken. What he desired to see was a representation by which the real body of the people were represented, and where justice might be done by all classes; and in that respect he hoped, from time to time, they would take a step in advance.