§ Order for Committee read.
§ Instructionto the Committee, That they have power to extend the provisions of the Bill to kinds of seed other than Potato seed.
§ Billconsideredin Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 1 (Short title)agreed to.
§ Clause 2 (Application of Act).
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, the Government had promised to accept this Bill on condition that certain Amendments proposed by them were inserted in it. He proposed, therefore, to insert the Amendment suggested by the Chief Secretary for Ireland in the Bill.
§ MR. SHAWsuggested that the benefits of Clause 6 should be extended to labourers who tilled small plots of land belonging to their employers. Unless that special provision was made, he was afraid they would hardly come within the strict definition of occupiers.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERthought the suggestion well worth consideration, and it was one which, perhaps, would be most conveniently dealt with on the Report of the Bill.
§ MR. SHAWobserved, that it would be, of course, quite competent for the Committee to put in some words to that effect, and he would raise the question again at a future stage.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that would be the most convenient course; and if the question were so deferred, he would consider it in the interval.
§ Amendmentmoved,in page 2, line 11, after the words "seed potatoes," to insert the words "seed, oats, or other seed."—(Major Nolan.)
652§ Amendmentagreed to.
§ Clause, as amended,agreed to.
§ Clause 3 (Powers of Guardians to borrow).
THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the money Resolutions had not yet been reported, and therefore it would be necessary, for the present, to postpone the next two clauses.
§ MR. CHILDERSremarked, that he did not remember that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had yet stated what the amount of the loan would be.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that the aggregate amount would be about £500,000, and it was proposed that the money should be advanced from the Church Funds.
§ Clausepostponed.
§ Clause 4 (Terms of loan)postponed.
§ Clause 5 (Orders for payments of loans may be made by Local Government Board)agreed to.
§ Clause 6 (Application of loans).
§ Amendmentmoved,in page 2, line 39, after the words "seed potatoes," to insert the words "seed, oats, or other seed."—(Major Nolan.)
§ Amendmentagreed to.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, the Amendment he was about to move was the only one as to which he had not come to a definite agreement with the Government. He proposed, at line 6, in page 3, to leave out the word "ten," in order that the word "twenty" might be inserted. He thought it right to say that he had not come to any definite agreement with the Government as to this Amendment; but it was the only one as to which they were not agreed, and he hoped that they might still see their way to accept it. He might add that he had no other Amendments to propose, except such as were already agreed to. When the original Bill was brought in the Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to say that the Government accepted the principle of the Bill with one or two unimportant reservations, and he hoped this would not be one of them. The object of his Amendment was to extend the power of the Guardians to sell seed. He know many occupiers between £10 and £20 who certainly would find themselves in distressed circumstances, and would, 653 he believed, be very glad to have power to buy seed. These people would not be able to obtain fresh seed for themselves, because the seed was sent from Dublin or Scotland in waggon loads of six tons at a time—a quantity which was quite beyond their reach. Of course, they might be able to get it from the local seed dealers; but, on the other hand, these occupiers would have far more confidence in the magistrates and Guardians. It would be unwise to give seed to such persons as these; while, on the other hand, they would be the very persons to whom it should be sold in accordance with the provisions of the Bill, because they would be the first to set an example to others how to pay. The effect of a certain number of people in the district paying up readily would have a very good effect; and for this reason alone the Bill might fairly be extended to persons holding land valued at more than £10.
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEwished to support the Amendment, because he found, on looking over the Agricultural Statistics for the year 1878, that by far the largest number of holdings were of 30 acres and under, while, on the other hand, potatoes were by far the largest crop grown. It was in the proportion of 3 to 1; and, therefore, he thought it was only fair that the Amendment should be accepted.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, originally a distinction was drawn between occupiers and owners. The Government had now undertaken to re-consider that proposition, in order still further to meet the objects of the Bill. Now, the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) proposed to abolish the distinction between occupiers above £10 and occupiers below it, so that both would stand upon an equal footing. But, surely, the line must be drawn somewhere? While the hon. and gallant Member for Galway drew it at £20, the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had last spoken wanted to draw it at £30. [Major NOLAN: No; 30 acres.] Well, that would probably give a value of over £20, and that showed the difficulty of agreeing on a fixed point. Of course, this was not a Party question; but, still, he presumed that they were all agreed that there was some point at which a limit must be placed. Upon careful consideration the Government had agreed 654 that the limit proposed was the most reasonable one; for, of course, they could not undertake to supply seed to the whole of Ireland. He hoped the Committee would see that the proposition in the Bill was a fair and reasonable one.
§ MR. O'SULLIVANpressed the Government very strongly to accept the Amendment. There were two or three farmers in his own immediate neighbourhood holding land of the value of between £10 and £20 whoso potato crops had been a total failure, who had no money to pay their rent, and who, therefore, were actually in a worse position than some of their poorer neighbours. He did not think the Amendment would make any great difference to the Government, for the number of holdings between £10 and £20 was not very large; while, on the other hand, the concession would be of very great advantage to these poor people.
§ MR. MELDONobserved, that there was one point to which he wished to direct particular attention. Quito irrespective of the relief of the existing distress, any legislation which would lead to the introduction of new potato seed into Ireland would be of the very greatest benefit. The want of fresh seed was the cause of much of the distress and of the blight and bad potato crops; and it was so patent that the introduction of now seed was absolutely necessary, that he hoped that as the question of increasing the facilities for obtaining seed on favourable terms under the Bill was hanging in the balance the Government would be influenced in their decision by the consideration of the enormous advantage that would be conferred on Ireland by the general introduction of fresh seed.
§ An hon. MEMBER desired to corroborate what had been said with regard to the necessity of new potato seed; and if the Government could stretch a point with a view to encouraging the introduction of fresh seed, they would confer a greater benefit on the country than, perhaps, anything else. An illustration would show what curious ideas still existed among the Irish people. He asked a tenant of his whether he ever changed his seed? The man replied that he did not; but that one year he used dung for manure, and the next sea sand. He most strongly supported the Amendment, because he was sure that the result would be to confer a benefit upon 655 Ireland, the effect of which would be felt for years to come.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it would, no doubt, be a most advantageous thing for Ireland if they could supply the whole country with a fresh stock of seed; but they must measure their actions by what they had the power to do. It must be remembered that they had already, by the propositions contained in this Bill, incurred a liability of at least £500,000. It must also be borne in mind that the effect of purchasing large quantities of seed, to be sold to the people on extremely lenient terms, must be to considerably increase the price of seed to other persons. The further they went, and the more the Government took upon itself the onus of the first expenditure on providing seed, and offering it to occupiers of land on the terms proposed by the Bill, the more the price of seed was likely to be raised against the purchasers of potato seed, on their own account, either in Ireland itself, or in other parts of the United Kingdom. That was a point which they were obliged to keep within view. They knew what they were now proposing to do for the smallest class of owners; and to carry that undertaking further than the real necessity of the case demanded, was to incur a very serious responsibility indeed. In making this provision for the small class of occupiers, who were really not in a position to procure seed for themselves, they were justified in their acts by the facts already known to them. But, on the other hand, he did not think they would be justified in extending the measure further than was at present proposed in the Bill.
§ MR. SHAWsaid, the Government had met them so reasonably in regard to this Bill, that nothing would be further from their wish than to put pressure upon them. He hoped, therefore, that they would not be driven to a division. There was a great deal of force in what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said. This was a Bill for the purpose of helping small tenants and small farmers. Of course, if they went further they would always be sure to find plenty of men in great distress who would be very glad to purchase seed for their land from the Government on these favourable terms. He would, therefore, suggest to the Go- 656 vernment that they should make the limit £15 instead of £10. It would not increase the number of persons benefited very much, nor would it increase, to any considerable extent, the responsibilities of the Government; while, on the other hand, it would in some parts of the country very decidedly increase the benefits of the Bill. In the South of Ireland, for instance, there were a very great many farmers cultivating something between 20 acres and 25 acres of land, the value of which was certainly under £15; while in the West of Ireland, on the other hand, there were a very large number of farmers whose holdings were under £10. He hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would consent to vary his Amendment to the extent he had suggested.
§ MR. GOULDINGpressed the Government to make the limit £20. There were many persons, to his certain knowledge, with holdings of the value of both £10 and £15, especially in Gal way and Mayo, to whom it would be their duty to give seed, for they would never be able to find the seed for themselves?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERThis is a subject of very great importance, and, at the same time, of very great difficulty. We have been for some weeks in communication with the highest authorities in Ireland, and with persons well acquainted with agriculture, on the subject, and I should not at all like to make any alteration in the amount at which we have arrived, after very full consideration, without time for consultation with those by whom we have, in a great measure, been guided. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment, and allow £10 for the present to stand in the Bill, we will on Monday announce whether we can consent to raise the sum to £15.
§ MAJOR NOLANhoped the Government by Monday or Tuesday would see its way not merely to a sum of £15, but would also accept his original Amendment of £20. The hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Shaw), who was better acquainted with the subject than anybody else in the House, had strongly supported the proposal for £20.
§ Amendment, by leave,Withdrawn.
§ MAJOR NOLANmoved, in page 3, line 7, to leave out the words "a half," in order to insert the word "an." The 657 effect of this Amendment was to raise the quantity of seed which the Guardians were authorized to sell to a quantity sufficient for one acre, instead of half an acre.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. J. LOWTHEROh! no; I accepted the Amendment.
THE CHAIRMANIt is too late now. I declared that the Ayes had it, and no one challenged my decision.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, it did not matter. He would propose instead, after the word "acre," in line 7, the words "or an acre." Then on the Report they could strike out the words "a half acre."
§ Amendmentagreed to.
§
MAJOR NOLANmoved, in page 3, line 1, after the words just inserted, to add these words—
Of seed oats or other seed sufficient to sow another acre of land, statute measure, provided that the total cost of such seed shall not exceed £5 for any one occupier.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he supposed the intention of his hon. and gallant Friend was that the amount sold to each occupier should not be greater than £5. The clause, as now amended, might read that the total amount which the Guardians were authorized to sell was £5.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, the Chief Secretary for Ireland had gone over the Bill very carefully with him, and he thought the words would scarcely bear the construction just suggested. If, however, there were any mistake, it could easily be remedied on the Report.
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYwished to propose, as a further Amendment, to insert before the words "five pounds," the words "together with such quantity of artificial manure as may be considered necessary." He proposed this Amendment, because it would be quite useless to give tenants—in the West of Ireland, at any rate—seed potatoes of a high quality, and not to give them at the same time artificial manure to use with them. There were a great number of tenants who did not require anything like the quantity of potatoes sufficient for an acre, or oven half-an-acre of land; but 658 he would give them such an amount of artificial manure as would really fertilize the crop. He was quite certain that if they gave these people potatoes without any manure the seed would be only wasted, for at present they had no means of really using it to advantage. So long as the amount of the grant was kept within the limit of £5, he did not see why the people should not have that done for them which was most beneficial to them.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIs it, Sir, within the Instruction to the Committee as to the Bill that this Amendment should be inserted? I doubt whether we can insert this Amendment.
THE CHAIRMANThe Amendment proposed by the hon. and gallant Member is, after the words just inserted, to insert these words—
And seed, oats, or other seed sufficient to sow another aero of land, statute measure, provided that the total cost of such seed shall not exceed £5 for any one occupier.The Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) is after the word "seed" to insert these words—Together with such quantity of artificial manure as may be considered necessary, provided," &c.The objection taken is that there is no provision in the Bill or the Instruction for lending money for other purposes than seed, and that this Amendment is outside the Instruction given to the Committee. The Instruction given to the Committee is one extending the operation of the Bill to other classes of seed only. I think, therefore, that the objection, technically, is correct, and that any proposition to include a loan for the purpose of purchasing artificial manure cannot be entertained. The point is a very small one; but I am obliged to rule in favour of the objection, because there can be no doubt that the object of the Instruction, as well as of the Bill, is merely to provide loans for the purpose of purchasing seed.
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYsuggested that the object of the Bill was not merely to provide seed, but to take care that the seed was vitalized—that it might grow and become reproductive. They did not desire merely to provide potatoes to rot.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERUnder that construction, we might provide forks and spades also.
THE CHAIRMANI think that I cannot put that Amendment, and that I must put the Amendment originally proposed.
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYcomplained that the House generally, and private Members especially, who were interested in this Bill, had had very little opportunity of considering it. There seemed to be some private compact between two or three Members and the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and the rest were to have no opportunity of considering it. The Bill was only distributed two or three hours before they went into Committee. It dealt with matters of the most extreme importance, and he considered it had not been dealt with properly. On so serious a subject the Irish Members were entitled to have full time to consider the provisions of this Bill. Instead of that being given to them, some private arrangement had been made between one or two hon. Gentlemen and the Chief Secretary.
§ MAJOR NOLANremarked that, during the recent debate on Free Trade, he saw two Colleagues representing the town of Leeds advocating entirely different views. One proposed one course of policy, only to hear his Colleague and brother Member immediately afterwards pointing out that that policy was entirely wrong. They remained, however, very good friends in spite of that. It was still more important that he and his hon. Colleague who had just spoken should not have any difference of opinion on this point. It was no secret that in the debate which took place a day or two previously several hon. Members declared that a Bill which merely gave a loan to the tenant would be of no use, and that it would be necessary to make them a free gift. If he thought there was the slightest possibility of obtaining a free gift from the Government, he certainly should not have brought in this Bill. He had acted upon what he thought the Cabinet were likely to do. He judged the Government by the acts of previous Governments as well as their own; and he felt that if he brought in a Bill for a free gift there was not the slightest chance of its passing. He therefore brought in one which he thought they could get enacted before the time came when it was absolutely necessary 660 that the seed should be sown. It was very painful for him to have to differ from any Member of his Party, because their objects were the same, and they were both alike anxious to provide seed for the tenants of Ireland in the best possible way. Possibly he and his hon. Friends had formed a different opinion about the means to be employed. He was sorry to differ as to means with any hon. Member on that side of the House, especially with any Irish Member; and he was still more pained that there should be any difference on this subject between himself and his hon. Colleague. He wished to explain, therefore, that he drafted the Bill in Dublin, and brought it in before he had any knowledge of what the Government were going to do, and it was printed before, as he believed, the Government even saw it. It turned out that they were drafting a Bill with the same central idea of lending money without interest through the Poor Law Unions, and of making the Poor Law Unions responsible for it. As to hurrying the Bill on, it undoubtedly had been hurried on; but, on the other hand, it was distributed more than two or three hours ago. It was distributed four or five hours ago; and Irish Members who had been waiting to help it on had had an opportunity of reading it, and it had received very considerable consideration. It was, as they all knew, of the greatest importance that this Bill should be pressed on, for the reason that the planting of potatoes began about the 10th or the 15th of March, and in the South of Ireland still earlier. It must be remembered that they had not merely to finish the Bill, but they had to give the Guardians of the poor time to consider it, and to order potatoes from Scotland. In this case, therefore, speed was not hurry, and there was no reason why they should not get the measure through Committee in four or five hours. He did hope that no Member would delay the progress of the Bill. He quite admitted that if his hon. Colleague had drafted the Bill it would have been much better as a Bill; but he (Major Nolan) thought that his own had a better chance of passing. It was far more important that the people should get the seed than that they should discuss what was the best way in which they should get it, and the question of re-payment was a very small one.
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYdid not see any necessity for this sudden outburst of affection for himself on the part of his hon. and gallant Colleague, for he had no controversy with his hon. and gallant Friend. The object which they all had in view was to make the best Bill possible. It seemed that, according to the Bill, they could not give the small tenants who were to have the seed the fertilizers which would make it useful. The fact that he was defeated in his attempt to move a useful Amendment merely on a technical point was very strong evidence of the injudicious way in which this business had been managed. He would have suggested this Amendment before if he had seen the Bill earlier; but if it could now be introduced in any way it would be quite satisfactory. Would it be possible to move words on the Report which would result in effecting what he desired?
§ Amendmentagreed to.
§ Clause, as amended,agreed to.
§ Clause 7 (Recovery of price from purchasers).
§ MAJOR NOLANmoved the omission of the words "within two months," in order to insert the words "at the same time as the first ordinary rate for the relief of the poor made in the unions."
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYconsidered this provision for the re-payment by small tenants of the amount of the cost of seeds to be exceedingly injudicious. The clause provided that tenants should make this re-payment in money; but it was well known that they lived upon their potatoes and did not sell them. The seed which would be given to them, and which would germinate, would, therefore, never be turned into money at all. In those circumstances, he was at a loss to know whence the tenants could get the money to repay the loans, which were recoverable, in the most stringent manner, through the Courts of Session, which would subject the tenants to the seizure of their chattels. They were already in debt to their landlords, and still further in debt to the shopkeepers, and Her Majesty's Government were now going to tie another mill-stone of debt around their necks; the result would be that a great many tenants would fail to repay the amounts as they became duo. The Government were inducing chari- 662 table persons to give food to the poor tenants; and why, under these circumstances, they should not give them small quantities of seed potatoes and oats, necessary to supply them with food during the next year, he could not imagine. When seed was sent from this country to France, the French tenants were not asked for re-payment. It appeared to him that the supply of seed ought to be distributed entirely as a gift; and if it were given through relief committees—through clergymen in the various districts, or through landlords who would take charge of it—the seed would not be misapplied, and the tenants would not need this obligation to be placed upon them of re-paying the cost, which would only add to the debt by which they were already weighed down. He quite agreed that the Bill should be passed without unnecessary delay; but he could not see that a few hours spent by hon. Members in consultation would make any difference whatever: for, as it was, the Committee had no opportunity of making the measure such as it ought to be.
THE O'DONOGHUEsuggested that the clause should be amended, so that discretion might be left to the Guardians to consider the circumstances of each person to whom advances were to be made.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that, of course, the Boards of Guardians had specific power to recover the amounts due. The hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry), taking exception to this clause, referred to the gifts of seed mad to the French peasantry. He (Mr. 'J. Lowther) would remind the hon. Member that these were gifts which came from private sources, and stood upon an entirely different footing to advances made by the State. Her Majesty's Government did not propose to pauperize the people; they only desired to afford them some assistance, making, at the same time, provision for the re-payment of the cost.
§ Amendments made.
§ Clause, as amended,agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Power of entry and inspection).
§
MR. MITCHELL HENRYmoved that this clause, which he considered to be of the most harassing and unrea-
663
sonable kind, be omitted. It appeared to him that the Bill had been drawn by someone who had a complete mistrust of the Irish tenantry; and he could not conceive why the clause had been so framed, knowing, as he did, the dislike and the fear which the small tenants in Ireland had for the visits of officials upon their farms. The words of the clause were these—
When any seed has been sold under this Act to any occupier of land in any Union, any of the Guardians of the Union, or any person nominated by the Guardians, or by the Local Government Board, may, at all reasonable times, enter into and examine any land occupied by such occupier, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the seed sold to such occupier has been properly sown by him.
This power had no limitation whatever, and the individual nominated by the Board of Guardians, or the Local Government Board, might enter as often as he liked. But how could it be ascertained whether the seed had been properly sown, except by digging it up? The person nominated might, under this clause, proceed to annoy the tenant. Let the Committee remember that this provision of seed would be useful to some of the most miserable cottiers on the face of the earth—to people who cultivated little patches of land, and who would sow the seed given to them, taking care of it in a way that largo farmers had no notion of. They were going to take with these poor people all the precautions which might more properly be applied to those who were about to be entrusted with great property. The rest of the clause, also, appeared to him to be exceedingly objectionable, and was as follows:—
If any person refuses to a Guardian or other person acting in execution of this Act admission to any land which such Guardian or person is entitled to enter or examine, or obstructs or impedes him in so entering or examining, the person so offending may be prosecuted in a summary manner, according to the provisions of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851, and any Act amending the same, and on conviction shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £5.
Why, the tenant was, probably, not worth 5d.or 5s.in money, and would lose his whole substance if he should obstruct this needless examination of his crops. He considered the clause unworthy of the Bill, and that it would have the effect of making it most unpleasant for the tenants of Ireland.
§ Moved,to omit the clause.—(Mr. Mitchell Henry)
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that the provision was simply made in order that persons should not be able to avail themselves of the bounty of Parliament for the purposes of fraud. There was no idea whatever of instituting this wonderful organ of oppression referred to by the hon. Member for Galway.
§ Motion, by leave,withdrawn.
§ Clauseagreed to.
§ Clause 9 (Summary recovery of price of seed).
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYequally objected to this clause. As a matter of fact, he objected to the Bill altogether, but especially to this clause as it stood, which gave the Guardians of the Union power to proceed before justices of petty sessions for the recovery of amounts claimed. In this case, the sum of £2 was mentioned; but he had already explained to the Committee that the tenants would not have £2 to pay. They had no means of turning their potatoes into money in the West of Ireland, where they did not sell their potatoes at all, but put them up into pits, keeping them for food during the year. They were about to give to the Guardians the strongest power known to the law for the recovery of these debts, and the clause, in his opinion, appeared to be most arbitrary.
§ MAJOR NOLANwas glad to accept the responsibility of this clause. The Committee would remember that the Boards of Guardians had to be persuaded to exercise their powers, and it was therefore necessary to give them the greatest possible facility for recovery. They must have facilities for the recovery of the debts, or they could not be expected to give the seed.
§ Clauseagreed to.
§ Clause 10 (Powers of Local Government Board where Guardians make default)agreed to.
§ Clause 11 (Saving for other remedies)agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Repayment of loans made by the Board of Works).
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, this clause involved a financial question to which he desired to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the 665 Exchequer. He suggested that a clause should be inserted carrying out the same provisions with regard to the remitted interest appearing as a charge on the Revenue of the year as in the India Bill of last year, when money, as in this instance, was advanced by the Exchequer without interest.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERquite understood the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), which should receive his consideration.
§ Clauseagreed to.
§ Clause 13 (Confirmation of expenditure by Guardians, and indemnity).
§ MR. J. LOWTHERmoved to insert, in page 5, line 32, the words "Local Government Board" after the word "Guardians."
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYbelieved that there would exist at all times difficulties with the Boards of Guardians in Ireland as to whether they would carry out the provisions of the Bill. He believed that the provisions of the Bill would not be carried out in many cases, and that the Guardians would not make use of the powers given to them, because the inducements to do so were not sufficient. He wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. J. Lowther) whether it was proposed to compel the Boards of Guardians to do so?
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, if his Colleague (Mr. Mitchell Henry) would look to Clause 2, he would see that this point had already been provided for, and that the Local Government Board might require the Boards of Guardians to put into force the provisions of the Act. As a matter of fact, this was doubly provided for in the Bill.
§ MR. MELDONwished to utter one word of warning with regard to the seed to be sown. As soon as it was known that seed was wanted, a large number of charitably disposed people would, no doubt, volunteer to sell, at the best possible price, potatoes for seed. Care should be taken that no seed should be purchased except such as was suited to the Irish climate. There was a talk of importing seed potatoes from America. He ventured to say that if that was done the result would be simply ruinous to the next year's crop, and that entire failure would follow from planting such seed. He believed himself 666 that Scotch potatoes were the best suited for planting in Ireland; and it would certainly be the duty of the Local Government Board, in sending out their Circular to the Guardians, to call attention to this very important point. If unsuitable seed was sown, the result would be disastrous; for the farmers would lose their crops, and the Guardians the advances they had made. He hoped the Government would consult persons of experience and knowledge on this point, and take care that no mischief was done by providing seed potatoes not likely to suit the soil and climate of Ireland. It was unfortunate, also, that hon. Members generally had not had an opportunity of looking over and thoroughly considering this Bill. Things done in a hurry were seldom well done. He had not had any opportunity of examining the provisions of the Bill, except during the past few minutes; but it had occurred to him that an indirect result of the measures which the Government and the hon. and gallant Member had brought in might be to disfranchise all those who took advantage of the relief to be afforded. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway should see to the matter so far as the present Bill was concerned, and have it made clear that under the Registration of Parliamentary Voters' Acts the acceptance of relief under the Bill would not be held to disfranchise an elector. He was sorry also that the penal clauses were inserted.
§ MAJOR NOLANundertook, if the hon. and learned Member who had just spoken would prepare a clause dealing with this last point, to bring it up on the Report. He did not think the matter affected himself personally, because nobody under £10 had a right to vote. Still, the clause would be very useful in preventing any question on the point. He believed it would be necessary to report Progress after this clause, unless there was means of bringing up the Report on the money clauses. If that could be done, of course it would much facilitate Business.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that in the Circular now in course of preparation a warning would be inserted to cultivators with regard to the seed that should be sown. Of course, it would be improper, in any suggestions offered on this clause, to advise the use of any one particular class of seed exclusive of others, except 667 with a view of affording facilities for the dissemination of seeds of various kinds. The hon. and learned Member had alluded to American potatoes. This was probably a question upon which Home Rule would not be a very popular cry; for he believed they were all a greed that potatoes other than Irish were what ought to be sown. He hoped the advice given in the Circular would be sufficient to prevent error on this point. He believed it would not be possible to take the Report on the money clauses that night, and therefore it would be necessary to report Progress.
§ MR. MITCHELL HENRYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman, or those who were responsible for this Bill, had calculated the quantity of seed potatoes which would actually be required, or was likely to be required? If this Bill was to be made of any practical use, there would be the greatest difficulty in procuring seed potatoes in the proper quantity; and, as a consequence, they would have a series of jobs and speculations as to the supply of seed, which would deprive this measure of half the benefit it was intended to confer upon the tenants. Half the benefit to be derived from this measure was, that it would substitute new seed for the worn out seed which had so long been sown in Ireland. In his humble opinion, when the Government became aware of the great deficiency there would be in the supply of seed, they should, through agents, have purchased in various places, without giving notice to anybody, large quantities of the proper kind of seed. They could have done that in various ways, as on former occasions. For instance, they might have acted confidentially through some of the large seed merchants. |There were many honourable firms, who, without disclosing the name of their purchaser, would have contracted for large quantities of the proper kinds of seed in different parts of the world. Or again, if they had put this matter into the hands of the Director of the Navy Contracts, he could easily have purchased large quantities of seed potatoes, and had them ready for distribution by this time. That was the reason why he objected to relieving the Government of their proper responsibility, which they, as Irish Members, had chosen to do by bringing in this Bill. If it produced 668 evil, or, at any rate, did not accomplish all the good that was to be expected, the natural answer of the Government would be—"Why we adopted your own measure." He maintained that to prepare for this emergency was a duty incumbent on the Government; and that by the hon. and gallant Member rushing in with a ready prepared Bill, which the Government eagerly grasped at and adopted, they had placed themselves in a very false position. For his part, he wished to wash his hands of any responsibility for the Bill.
§ MR. MELDONsaid, that with regard to the answer of his hon. and gallant Friend, that persons rated at less than £10 were not entitled to vote, he must call attention to the fact that the proposal was to extend the operation of the Bill on Report to persons rated at £15 or £20. Besides, it must be remembered that a person might be rated in respect to more than one holding, in order to qualify him for the franchise. It was necessary, therefore, to take care that people should not be disfranchised by taking advantage of the provisions of this Bill.
§ Amendmentagreed to.
§ Clause, as amended,agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Major Nolan.)
§ Motionagreed to.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again uponMondaynext.