HC Deb 12 February 1880 vol 250 cc533-60

Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

MR. SYNAN,

in rising to move his Amendment, said, he was sorry to interpose himself between the House and the Second Reading of the Bill, and delay its progress for an hour or two, and it was probable that the motives of his Colleagues and himself would be misunderstood and misrepresented in that House and out of it, as their motives had been misrepresented by some of the public newspapers of the country as to the Amendment to the Address moved by the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Shaw). He did not expect that their conduct and their actions, as the Irish independent Party in this House, would be ascribed by the public Press to any high motive of duty; but he had to ask the House not to be parties to such a misunderstanding. He hoped their arguments on this Bill and on the Resolution he had to propose would receive consideration from the Government. The Bill before the House dealing with Irish distress proposed as a measure for relief to lend out money to different parties as well as to different individuals, so as to give employment to the distressed poor of Ireland. It proposed, in the first instance, to give those loans to Guardians of the poor for the purpose of relief, and it proposed to pay those loans by a mortgage on the rates; secondly, it proposed to give similar loans to the sanitary authorities for executing works; but it proposed, thirdly, to give loans under peculiar circumstances to the landlords for the purpose of employing the labourers on their estates to improve their property. To those provisions he had no personal objection. Then the baronial presentment sessions were also to execute works and to charge the rates with the re-payment of those loans. He was not so much in favour of the latter proposal as he was of the others. It was a proposal fraught with great danger. The experience of 36 years ago, which he was old enough to remember, was not very encouraging as to the character of those works or as to the effect they would have. It would require great caution, and prudence, and limitation to make them useful, for they might throw away money in useless works as they did before. He must also qualify his approval of lending money to landlords, because the money lent for them to improve their estates would probably, in some instances, be em- ployed to raise their rents. The money should be lent also to the tenants for the improvement of their farms under the supervision of the Board of Works, and which improvement would do much to prevent future famines. His Amendment called the attention of the House to the 17th clause of the Bill, which said that all the loans to be given to the sanitary authorities were to be with the consent of the Irish Local Government Board. The landlords were to have the loans by the sanction of the Board of Works; and whereas the Commissioners of Works had advanced money to the landowners, the 17th clause threw the whole cost of the relief on the Irish Church Fund, and thus relieved the English Treasury. The rate of interest under the Bill was to be 1 per cent, and the rate of borrowing money, under ordinary circumstances, was from 4 to 5½ per cent. The only difference was the rate of interest; and instead of throwing that low interest on the Consolidated Fund, it threw it on to the Irish Church Fund. The possible loss would fall on the Irish Church Fund instead of on the Imperial Fund. Therefore, they thought that they were bound to bring this matter before the House. He should move— That it is inexpedient that any portion of the property accruing to the Commissioners of the Church Temporalities Fund under The Irish Church Act, 1869,' shall he applied towards the relief of the distress in Ireland, and that the provisions of the Bill authorizing such advances out of such property cannot be satisfactory, and this House is of opinion that all advances to be made for the purpose of relieving distress in Ireland shall be made from Imperial resources. It could not be denied that, if there wore no Irish Church Fund, the loans would have to come out of the Imperial Fund. Now, what was the Irish Church Surplus Fund; under what circumstances did it arise? Was it intended to be applied in loans to landlords, or to Boards of Guardians, or to the sanitary authorities? It was the surplus of a fund which was national, and which belonged to the poor. The tithes of the Church were the property of the people; and if the Church was disestablished and disendowed, the funds naturally reverted to the people, to whom they belonged, and to be employed for their purposes. Why, then, should this Fund be taken to save the Imperial Exchequer and allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer to patch up his Budget? This Bill violated the 68th clause of the Irish Church Act. It was to relieve the National Treasury of this country in meeting the great calamity which had fallen on a portion of this great Empire, and which ought to be dealt with by the Imperial funds. He denied that the spirit of the Act had been violated in drawing upon the fund for Intermediate Education and to provide pensions for teachers, because in these cases other funds were not applicable; and Parliament was not bound to draw upon the Imperial Exchequer for these purposes, which were of special interest to all Ireland. Although these two applications did not actually follow the words of the section, they were acy presand an equitable application of the Fund. There were national purposes for which it was desirable to retain the Church Fund. As the churches and residences handed over to the Disestablished Church were valued at £3,000,000 or £4,000,000, it was once proposed, and it might be again, to use the Fund in building residences and churches for the ministers and people of other denominations. But there was another and more paramount application of the money, a purpose for which the Government ought to maintain the Fund. There were many who thought a great experiment should be tried in the way of attempting to establish a peasant proprietary. The objection urged against such a scheme was that the Government would not get their rent-charges. Let the experiment be made to see if peasant proprietors would pay the rent-charges, and if it was successful the Government would be able to carry it out on a larger scale. On the other hand, if the experiment he suggested should be tried, the Irish people would bear the loss for the sake of such an experiment. The Government, if they chose, could force them to pass the Bill in its present form; but he maintained that the Irish people would be unanimously in favour of the application of the Fund in the manner he he had referred to, and it should be adopted for the solving of the Irish Land Question. He thought if there was a statesman in this country who was thoroughly acquainted with the state of things in Ireland and of the opinions of the Irish people, he would see the necessity of this sacred right being adopted for the purpose of settling the question. He was sorry to say that it had been looked upon by the Government as a delusion and a mockery, and that it was proposed in Ireland by agitators for their own purpose; but he was satisfied that the establishment of a peasant proprietary in Ireland would be a most conservative power, and would have the effect of doing away with many difficulties, and be the means of removing the discord and the hostility to the Government which at present existed. Seventeen years ago a great calamity fell upon this country. They all, no doubt, remembered the Lancashire Cotton Famine in the year 1863, and admired the way the people then bore the calamity. The Government, upon that occasion, brought in a Bill in order that an advance might be made out of the Public Treasury of the country to the extent of £1,200,000 to give loans to the local bodies, Boards of Guardians, and other representative bodies, for the purpose of forming a special fund, providing that money should be supplied for useful works, and that the money should be paid back at £3 10s.per cent. The Bill provided 30 years for the re-payment, with power to the Government to prolong the payment. The calamity in Ireland, however, was far greater than that of Lancashire, for the reason that it had fallen upon poor people who could not help themselves. In Lancashire the famine fell upon a rich country, where there were plenty of wealthy men to come forward; but in Ireland, unfortunately, they were driven to seek public charity from Europe and Australia and America. Considering the pauperized state of the country, he thought it would look well for the Treasury of England to advance a sum of money by way of loan, or otherwise, in order to relieve the terrible distress in Ireland. "Were the present Government willing to let it go forth that, while they were ready to give millions to save Turkey, South Africa, and Afghanistan, they would refuse to give a shilling to Ireland, though it would save millions of starving people? If the sentiment of the House was what it ought to be, the great object all hon. Members should have in view was contained in his Amendment, and its adoption would lead to the conciliation of Ireland. It was in this spirit he proposed the Amendment, and in this spirit he hoped it would, be received. Such a measure would act as a means of binding the two nations together; and he hoped that if it were accepted it would have the effect of binding the hearts of the Irish people to the English people with "hooks of steel." In conclusion, he begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "it is inexpedient that any portion of the property accruing to the Commissioners of Church Temporalities under 'The Irish Church Act, 1869,' shall be applied towards the temporary relief of distress in Ireland, and that the provisions of the Bill authorising such advances out of such property cannot he satisfactory; and this House is of opinion that all advances to be made for the purpose of relieving distress in Ireland shall be made from Imperial resources,"—[Mr. Synan,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

remarked, that while the main question before them was the necessity of giving adequate relief, the source from which the money was to be taken was a very important consideration. So far as he understood, the proposal of the Government was that a sum of £500,000 should be advanced for several purposes. Advances to landlords for purposes of improvement, advances to Boards of Guardians for sanitary purposes, advances to baronial sessions, the making and improving of roads, and, finally, what might turn out to be the largest and most important item of all—for the purposes of out-door relief. It was proposed that the greater proportion of this sum should be advanced at 1 per cent; and, so far as he understood, the portion to be advanced for purposes of out-door relief was to be at a larger rate of interest. The re-payment of the money was to be guaranteed by the various parties to whom it was advanced at certain rates of interest; but, so far as he understood, where the rate of interest payable was less than 3½ per cent, the difference was to be recouped from the Irish Church Fund. That would involve a charge on the Fund of some £12,700 a-year, which would seriously retard the payment by the Commissioners of the Irish Church Temporalities of the debt which they owed to the Treasury, and would delay the time at which the Fund could really be turned to account and made available for such purposes as Parliament might think fit to apply it to. The security for the principal money advanced would, be security on land and security on sanitary rates and poor rates. There was no fear whatever as to the payment of the principal fund to be advanced; and in these circumstances, and 1 per cent being perfectly secure, he should like to know whether it was unfair on their part to ask that the difference between 1 per cent and 3½ per cent should be borne by the Imperial Treasury? "Was it fair to throw a charge of £12,700 a-year on the Irish Church Fund? It might be said that this looked a very small sum to make any complaint about. It was certainly a small sum, coming from the Imperial Exchequer; but it represented a very large sum indeed, when thrown on the annual income which came into the hands of the Irish Church Temporalities Commission. The Irish Church Fund had been so completely excluded by the Act of 1869 from any operation of the kind, that the Government could not have sufficiently regarded it in making their present proposal. He did not think there was anything in connection with advances already made from the Fund which formed anything like a precedent for, or analogy to, the attempt now made to make use of the Fund for the purpose of relief. Out-door relief to a deplorable extent would have to be met and dealt with during the next two or three months; but they had not yet an adequate idea of the amount of suffering which would have to be faced, or of the suddenness with which it might come. It was only by endeavouring to recall what occurred in 1847 that they could form an adequate idea of the suddenness with which relief might be rendered imperative and necessary. Was there an existing organization, or was there a prospect of being called into existence any organization which would cope with that distress in the various localities over the Island? Had practical steps been taken, had adequate provision been made, to guard against loss of life? He thought not. Taking into consideration the bad seasons which Ireland had encountered, the absence of seed for next year, and the complete destitution which existed in many places, it was not too much to ask that there should be something in the shape of a grant to meet the expenditure for outdoor relief. If it were necessary that out-door relief should be given in money, he should certainly make such a proposal with great diffidence. But if it were considered that it might be unsafe to give money for such relief on the broad lines which must be acted on in this case there was another way of giving it, and that was by the distribution of fuel and food. But they could not distribute food and fuel adequately and in time amongst the people unless they prepared an organization beforehand; and, therefore, he hoped that in the course of the progress of the Bill such Amendments would be introduced as would tend to the formation of an organization for the distribution of food and fuel in every district which was likely to be the scene of distress and suffering. When such organizations were formed he believed they would be able to economize the money to be expended, and considerably lessen the amount which it would be necessary or fair to accept as a grant from the Imperial Treasury. There was one other point to which he might allude without saying one word against baronial sessions. He trusted that certain Unions and Boards of Guardians would have facilities for giving labour similar to those proposed to be given to such sessions when it was necessary. There were many Unions not scheduled under the Act which were still in great distress. "Where organization was necessary, and where it did not exist, the people would fall a prey to famine during the coming months. Something must be done beyond the ordinary scope and operation of the Poor Law, otherwise misery would come upon men, women, and children with this additional horror—that whereas in other quarters it had given premonitory symptoms and gradually increased in force, in these parishes and localities it would not come with such symptoms, but suddenly. Everything would be loft to the ordinary remedy of the Poor Law, and in those districts famine would do its work.

COLONEL COLTHURST

thought that, in the present emergency, it would be at least necessary for the Local Government Board to issue a Circular calling upon Boards of Guardians to give outdoor relief, and stating that the able-bodied had a right either to work or to such relief. This was done in Lancashire in 1863. Boards of Guardians, too, should have power to give relief in money as well as in fuel. He would leave it to their discretion; but he would also authorize them to exact work. As to the mode of re-payment, the Bill provided that the money was to be borrowed for 10 years at 3½ per cent interest. That, after all, was only staving off the evil day, and the Boards of Guardians would have before them the prospect that the rates in 10 years would have to bear a burthen amounting to 7s.,8s.,or 10s.extra in the pound. How was a similar case met in Lancashire? The Boards were authorized that whenever the rates exceeded 5s.in the pound a rate in aid should be struck in the rest of the country not affected by the famine. In addition to that, power was given to Boards of Guardians in Lancashire to undertake works other than sanitary works, to deepen rivers, to improve ports, to widen roads, and so on—why should not similar power be given in Ireland? There would be another advantage in thus using the Boards of Guardians, and that was that it would do away at once with the cumbrous and inadequate procedure of baronial sessions. He hoped the Government would favourably consider the suggestions he had indicated. If they did so they might confidently answer the critics who feared, which he did not, that the presentment sessions would be extravagant, for then they would be for all practical purposes non-existent.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, there was a great deal of practical wisdom in what had been said by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had just sat down. The Government derived great advantage from many of the observations which had been made in the course of the last few days by hon. Gentlemen who were acquainted with the real state of affairs in Ireland. The Government were anxious, as far as possible, to avail themselves of that experience; and he hoped that in the discussions in Committee they would have the advantage of it. With regard to one or two of the questions raised by the hon. and gallant Member, he did not think that the cases of Lancashire and of Ireland were exactly parallel; in fact, there were several points of divergence, which made it impossible for the Government to follow the precise course that was taken in the case of Lancashire. In that case there was no public money voted, though a considerable extension was given to the Poor Law system; but he agreed with the hon. and gallant Gentleman in what he said about special works. They should be very careful that there would be no indiscriminate or careless application of money which was intended to give employment to the poor, and to keep the people from starvation; and they should see that it would not be available possibly—to use a common phrase—for jobbing. With the deepest attention and the most earnest application, the Government in 1846–7 fell into great errors, and undertook a task which was beyond the power of any Government properly to fulfil. They got into a position in which they had many hundreds of thousands of persons employed on public works which were of no use whatever; the work was not performed with any energy or zeal, and kept people away from what was much more useful. It had been with reluctance and some apprehension that the Government had gone into the question of baronial sessions. They felt it was just one of those matters on which it was necessary to keep a vigilant eye. At the same time, they thought it better to err on the side of giving rather too much than too little; and they believed on the whole that, subject to proper restrictions and control, and to the inspection of the Government, the works of the kind baronial sessions were likely to present might be profitably undertaken. The works would be not only those mentioned in the Bill—namely, road making and improving; but would include operations such as the deepening of rivers, the construction of railways, and so forth. The hon. and gallant Member would see that the advantage of committing those works to the baronial sessions was that they could borrow money for such purposes as roads, and other works that the Lord Lieutenant, with the consent of the Treasury, might direct. He might men- tion that he had that day authorized the Irish Government to undertake, besides roads, other works that might seem desirable; and he trusted that that course would meet the wishes of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. It might be necessary, perhaps, not only to authorize, but also to press the Boards of Guardians to use their powers. For some time past, it had been the desire of the Government, wherever the Boards wished to extend the assistance given, to offer them facilities for doing so; but, undoubtedly, they might have to put some pressure on them to do their duty. Of course, the immediate responsibility rested with the Boards of Guardians. A system of poor relief was established in Ireland; and it was the duty of the Boards, if they found that the law did not permit them to do it, to come to the Government for additional assistance. Undoubtedly, the effect of their doing so would be to add to the charges of the Union; and it was just possible there might be cases in which the Guardians, having too great a desire to spare the rates, might be too slack in coming forward for the relief of exceptional distress. The Government had had that point before them, and they had desired the Local Government Board strongly to impress on Boards of Guardians the responsibility which was imposed upon them. In addition to the three Inspectors, of whose appointment notice had already been given, the Government had authorized, yesterday or to-day, the appointment of three additional Inspectors; and they had impressed on the Local Government Board the importance of causing those Inspectors to be as much as possible in their districts, in order to see what was really going on, and to report every case of distress or destitution which seemed to call for remark, and to exercise their influence in inducing Boards of Guardians to do their duty. In two or three cases the Local Government Board had offered to Boards of Guardians advances by way of loan, to enable them to procure fuel for distribution; but those offers had been declined. Of course, the responsibility of declining those offers rested on the Boards of Guardians; but he thought some power should be vested in the Inspectors and the Local Government Board to compel action even if the Boards of Guardians were slow to pro- ceed. All these points had been and were continually under the notice of Her Majesty's Government, and they had been in constant communication with the Irish Government on the subject. He could assure hon. Gentlemen that they would continue earnestly to press these matters. By the Amendment, a question was raised as to whether any portion of the property accruing to the Commissioners of the Church. Temporalities should be applied to the temporary relief of distress in Ireland; and the House was invited to express an opinion that all advances made for the purpose of relieving distress in Ireland should be made from Imperial resources. It was a very popular thing to say that all advances should come out of the Imperial Exchequer; but it must be borne in mind that, though there was very severe distress in parts of Ireland, there was also a good deal of distress in England. The Exchequer was supplied by contributions from all parts of the United Kingdom; and there might be, and, in fact, had been, a great many applications which the Government had felt it their duty to decline from distressed persons in England, and he thought from Scotland also, for assistance from the Exchequer. They had felt that it was impossible to attend to those applications with justice to the country at large. They desired to continue in a fair and liberal way the assistance by way of, advances which was given to the improvement of land, and to various other purposes which were of national and general importance. They had established a system which had been carefully elaborated for making advances on terms which would involve no loss to the Exchequer, and which yet would be of advantage to the localities to which they were advanced. They were always met, even by gentlemen who in public matters were of a very economical turn of mind, with great objections to the stinginess or illiberality of the terms on which those advances were offered, and it was with the greatest difficulty that the Government were able to maintain the system which they were satisfied was necessary for the protection of the interests of the general public. If they were, in the case of exceptional distress in a portion of the United Kingdom, to allow advances to be made on much more liberal and lavish terms than they were in the habit of giving, the system would break down, and very great confusion would arise. They admitted, however, that in the present case it was desirable that advances should be made on much more liberal terms than usual, not for the purpose of promoting particular works of improvement, but for actually giving employment to the people and keeping them from starving. These were advances much more in the nature of relief works than in the nature of improvement works. If they were to make the advances out of the general fund at the disposal of the Board of Works, they felt they would be introducing a precedent exceedingly embarrassing to them in all their future dealings. On the other hand, they had to bear in mind that there did exist in Ireland a fund of a peculiarly Irish character. It was a fund which belonged to Ireland, and which it was the duty of Parliament to administer for the general benefit of Ireland. It appeared to the Government that the case which had now arisen was one which might be very fairly met by the Church Surplus Fund. They did not propose to exhaust any considerable portion of that Fund. They proposed to make, not grants, but advances out of it; and they understood that those advances would be repaid. That was the principle on which they went; and he assumed that the re-payments would, in due course, be made. It was true, as stated by the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Shaughnessy), that there would be a sacrifice of a small portion of the Fund. That would be measured by the difference between the interest on the amount advanced and the amount they would receive in re-payment from those to whom the advances were made. The hon. and learned Gentleman had put the amount at £12,000. It might be that, or perhaps a little more; but he did not think the Fund could be considered to be unfairly charged with an expenditure which was distinctly for the purpose of meeting an unavoidable and sudden calamity. The visitation which had fallen upon that part of the country was a visitation which distinctly needed, and ought to be met to some extent, by charitable efforts. It was impossible to lay down the doctrine that in cases of this kind the whole of the burden should fall on the Imperial Exchequer, and that recourse should not be had to the aid of charity. He did not think that in the case of Lancashire, to which reference had been made, there were public contributions, but that the distress was met chiefly by private subscriptions, and in part by advances from the poor rates and the neighbouring Unions. The present was one of those cases in which they might fairly take advantage of the charity of individuals, and fairly have recourse to a fund applicable to charitable uses. With regard to future measures which might be adopted in order to prevent the recurrence of such evils, that was a question which demanded the most careful consideration on the part of Parliament. He quite agreed with those who said that the lessons they had received now and in former times ought to make Parliament exceedingly careful in considering what could be done to prevent the recurrence of evils of this kind. But at this moment the Government were pressed to meet the danger and the misery which were actually upon us; and he thought they might fairly have recourse to a fund which was of a peculiarly Irish character, and which was available for Irish purposes. But whatever view the House might take upon this subject, he hoped they would not delay the present stage of the Bill. The question of the application of the Church Surplus might very properly and conveniently arise on the discussion of the clauses; but with regard to the progress of the Bill, he might remind the House that the Government were now acting outside the law on their own responsibility. Although they were not at all afraid to take that responsibility, still Parliament ought to take it upon itself, and had no right to leave the matter entirely on the shoulders of the Government. He hoped, therefore, that they would be favoured with the advice and supported by the authority of Parliament as soon as possible. The House, he trusted, would agree to the Second Reading of the Bill; and, in that case, he should propose to fix the Committee for the earliest possible day, in order that the discussion of the clauses might be proceeded with.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

did not think it was important whether that Bill were passed now or deferred for a month. He certainly should not do any- thing to delay the Second Reading of the Bill; but he wished to remind the House that there was another Bill before them which was of the utmost importance, and with regard to which delay would be very serious. He referred to the measure for providing seeds of various kinds for the people to sow their ground with during the present spring. If that Bill did not pass into law immediately, so that the seed could be distributed within the next five or six weeks, they would next year have another famine twice as bad as that which raged now. It therefore seemed to him that the Government was labouring at an oar in the boat which was of the least importance to help them over the surf with which they were surrounded. He did not object so much to resorting to the Irish Church Surplus as he objected to resorting to it for the purpose and in the manner mentioned in the Bill. If they were to take out of the Surplus a certain amount for the purpose of restocking the ground during the approaching five or six weeks, he should consider that was a very fair way of disposing of it; but at present the Bill appeared to him to be framed under a complete misconception of the position. As a fact, the measures proposed in the Government Bill ought to have been in operation weeks and months ago. If that had been done, the people would not now have been pauperized and demoralized by the lavish distribution of charity which, coming as it did now, had unfitted them for work or for any exertion in behalf of themselves. The Government should long ago have made arrangements through some of the large houses which dealt in seed for having a stock ready to distribute among the people at the present crisis. When the seed came to be distributed he hoped it would be bestowed as a free gift and not as a loan; otherwise, the result would be to plunge the people still further into debt. It was a pure chimera to suppose that the people would eat the seed potatoes they might receive. They would do nothing of the kind; they would regard the seed as a sacred possession, the purpose of which was to avert famine next year. At any rate, the Government might rest assured that in providing adequate seed for next year lay the only chance of averting another and more terrible calamity.

THE O'DONOGHUE

said, that he objected to the Billin toto,and for the reason that it proposed to place increased burdens upon the already over-taxed ratepayers in Ireland. The principle of the Government Bill was to make the Irish distress a local question. The principle of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Synan) was to make it an Imperial question; and there could be no doubt as to the choice which the Representatives from Ireland should make between the two. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech, had intimated that the local Boards of Guardians required pressure to induce them to act. No doubt they did, for the leading spirits of the Boards of Guardians in Ireland were the landlords, and they were perfectly aware that the ratepayers of Ireland were already rented, rated, and taxed up to the utmost amount they could bear. His only object in giving Notice that he should move that the Second Reading of the Bill be postponed until the 19th of February was to give time for the Boards of Guardians, the members of baronial sessions, and others who were interested in the matter, to express their opinions upon it. The title of the Bill was so taking that one was apt to forget its principle. He could not believe, however, that the Liberal Party would ever assent to legislation which was contrary to their policy, and would throw greater obstacles than had ever yet been thrown in the way of the peasantry of Ireland getting that position on the soil which they were determined to obtain. It appeared to him that the main object of the Bill was to enable landlords to dispense with their tenants altogether. He considered that it was an extraordinary thing for the Government to mix up two things together which were totally distinct, one to relieve the distress in Ireland, and the other to assist the landlords. He would, at a future stage, take the opportunity of expressing the objections he felt to the Bill in detail.

MR. P. MARTIN

objected to the way in which this question had been dealt with by the Government. The Bill ought to be termed, not a measure for the general benefit of Ireland, but a Bill for the relief of landlords in certain distressed districts in that country. The present state of affairs ought to be met by Her Majesty's Ministers in a noble and statesmanlike manner, worthy of a great nation. He submitted that the Church Surplus Fund was not one out of which British generosity should supply money for the purpose; because, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, and as it was expressed in the Church Disendowment Act, the Fund was to be administered for the general benefit of Ireland, and not for the benefit of particular districts. Because there was loud-voiced clamour in the West, the Government seemed to think that only that portion of the country was distressed. Such was not the case. He did not know what authority the Chief Secretary for Ireland had for stating that there was no distress in the county of Kilkenny. On the contrary, the privations endured by both labourers and small farmers had in that county increased and were every day increasing. The labouring class might, perchance, soon get employment in assisting in the spring work; but for the farming class this prospect was most alarming. In many districts, he believed, many of the farmers were without money and already deeply in debt to the shopkeepers, not only for supplies of food, but for the seed which cropped their lands last year. They would find much difficulty in obtaining the seed to crop their farms this year. The Government measure appeared to him to provide no adequate means for the relief of distress amongst the farming class. The system which should have been adopted was one which would have set the tenant to work on his own land. The Government had misconceived the extent and proportions of the distress. He had hoped they would have introduced a fair and generous measure to meet the necessities, not only of the Western districts, but of the whole of Ireland. If his hon. Friend who had moved an Amendment to the Bill (Mr. Synan) went to a division he should accompany him to the Lobby.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

contended that the Bill was not of a nature likely to give satisfaction in Ireland. He held that the only way to meet the distress was either to give a free grant of money or to undertake the prosecution of public works, especially such works as the drainage of the Shannon, the prosecution of which would, in his opinion, be of great national advantage.

MR. D. TAYLOR

expressed his satisfaction that the Government had taken up the question of supplying seed potatoes to the people; but he hoped the Bill would not be limited to potatoes. In some of the distressed districts in Donegal which he had visited, the people were in great dread that they would not have any seed, and the question was one to which the Government could not devote too much attention. He was surprised that there should be any objection to using the Church Surplus Fund for the relief of distress, more especially as the money would be advanced as a loan, and the only loss the Fund would sustain would be a small deficiency in interest. The object of the Bill was to enable the Guardians to give out-door relief, and anything that could be done to tide the people over the distress, without compelling them to enter the workhouses, would be a great boon. Owing to last year's winter, they had more work than they had last year; but it was not sufficient to stop the famine they were now suffering from. He hoped this Bill would proceed concurrently with the Seed Bill; but something more must be done if they would avoid the recurrence of this distress. Railways must be made with a view to cheap transit; harbours must be built and improved, and trade must be developed, if they would permanently remove the evils under which the country was suffering. He trusted the Government would give that subject their most earnest consideration.

MR. O'CLERY,

in opposing the Bill, said, that the Government ought to look to the Consolidated Fund, and not to the Irish Church Fund, for the means of relieving the existing distress. He wished particularly to call attention to the case of the fishermen on the West coast of Ireland, who were at the present time suffering great distress, and hoped that, from whatever source the relief funds might come, something would be done to encourage the fisheries along the Irish coasts generally.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, he had expressed his views on this subject at some length the other night, when there did not seem to be much interest felt in it; in fact, there were only four or five hon. Members in the House. The Government proposed this scheme as a remedy for admitted distress; but they were acting in a somewhat Irish fashion, for, under the baronial sessions, they would be raising money from a class who themselves required relief—he meant the ratepayers. He regretted that there should have been any appeal to the charity of foreign nations for that relief which the Government should have afforded, and thought the question ought not to be complicated by reference to the Irish Church Surplus Fund. In his opinion, the principle laid down in the case of the distress in Lancashire during the Cotton Famine should be followed in that of Ireland, and that the funds for relieving the distress, unfortunately prevalent in that country, should be obtained from Imperial and not from local sources. It would be unwise to treat the distress in Ireland as a small matter compared with that of a distant English county, and he should like to hear from the Bench opposite whether they would deny that the present distress was not as great as during the Cotton Famine; and, as one of the Irish Members, he would ask why the same course should not be pursued in each case?

THE CHANCELLOROF THE EXCHEQUER

They were not given anything from the Imperial Funds.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

must insist, however, that a loan of £1,200,000 was granted to Lancashire on Imperial security. It was admitted that relief to a large extent must be given by the Boards of Guardians; and he called upon the Government to grant out of the Imperial Exchequer a sum in aid of outdoor relief in Ireland equal to that appropriated by the Guardians for that purpose. The sum requisite for the purpose would be much less than the money which would have to be paid to Crown solicitors, Queen's counsel, and others employed to put the law in force in bloody arrangements, perhaps, before the year was out. The adoption of his suggestion would at once prevent the famine which many people anticipated, and for which, if it did occur, the Government would, after the warnings they had had, be solely responsible. He hoped that in whatever they did the Government would rise superior to Party.

THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTON

said, that the favourable manner in which the Bill had been received was a proof of the sympathy which hon. Members on both sides of the House felt for Ireland in her distress, and of the approval with which the Government proposals had been received. It was undoubted that the measure before the House would be most beneficial for Ireland, as it would enable the Guardians to make ample provision of food and fuel for issue in case of necessity. It would also enable baronial presentments to be made. It was advisable, however, with respect to these presentments in aid, that due care should be taken to prevent waste of money or the perpetration of jobs. It was most advisable that railways should be promoted in every way in Ireland; and he was, therefore, glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the various propositions in the Bill were likely to be extended in that respect. With regard to the county with which he was connected, there were no less than three railways in course of construction. Under the present distress the proprietors had not sufficient money for carrying out the purposes they had in view, and the result was that the works were at a standstill. If aid were given to enable the construction of local railways and branch lines to be proceeded with, it would considerably benefit the particular localities, and would not lead to that influx of labour from elsewhere which large railway works would be certain to create. Local labour would be employed, and that upon reproductive works. Irish Members on both sides of the House, he believed, would agree with him, when he said that they did not want so much the formation of roads, or the making of fences to improve those roads, but they wanted something of general and practical utility, and that which might hereafter be of permanent benefit to Ireland. He might also mention the formation of piers and harbours. It was a matter of regret that the Irish fisheries were not in a satisfactory state. The fishermen of Ireland were poor; but they were industrious and brave. They had no means of buying boats, nor the means of buying sufficient gear to carry on their occupation. If the Government, during the present crisis, which he was sorry to say was likely to increase on the "West coast of Ireland, would grant loans for the purpose of erecting permanent small fishery piers, it would be of vast benefit to the fishing community of that country. He trusted that before this Bill passed they might find that some satisfactory means had been adopted not only to promote reproductive labour throughout the internal districts of Ireland, but also to promote the formation of railways and fishery harbours.

MR. MELDON

said, that a serious question was raised as to whether the Irish Church Surplus was prohibited by the section of the Act of 1869 which dealt with it from being appropriated to such a purpose as was now in view; the section contained a special provision that the Fund was not to be employed in any way to cancel or impair the obligations now attached to property under the Acts for the relief of the poor. Under the present Bill, however, it was intended to apply the money in relief and in aid of the poor rates of Ireland. Besides being a possible misappropriation of the Fund, it would make inroads into the capital, which had already been very seriously diminished. As a matter of fact, there was no such fund in existence as the Irish Church Surplus. The Irish Commissioners, he believed, had not the command of a single 6d.of capital, and they had been indebted to the savings banks for the money which they had been able to place at the disposal of Parliament up to the present time. What the Bill did was to propose that the Commissioners, who had no capital, should borrow money to lend it again to the Board of Works, which in itself was an absurd proceeding. It was improper to fritter away the Surplus Fund. A national demand had been made that it should be applied to the purpose of creating a peasant proprietary in Ireland; and he thought that until that question was settled no further inroad should be made into that Fund. In the face of these considerations, the Government actually proposed to hand a large portion of the money over, not to the tenants, but to the landlords, who would thus receive exceptional facilities for improving their land. He thought that money advanced to the owners of land for the improvement of their property was most just and useful; but the question now was whether landlords should have exceptional advantages granted to them which might as usefully be granted to the tenants, and whether these exceptional advantages should be granted at the cost of the tenants. If the land were improved, the consequence would be that the tenants, at no distant time, would have to pay increased rents. He (Mr. Meldon) had suggested, in the debate on the Address, that the money should be given, if at all, to the tenants, for the purpose of improving the land, and he had been met with some representation about the rights of property. Yet the tenants would be improving the land; and if they paid all the instalments, they ought to be enabled to claim compensation for the improvements, as under the Land Act of 1870 it had been admitted they were entitled to. Was it fair that when a national calamity overtook Ireland it should be dealt with in a different way from that in which the distress in Lancashire in 1863 was met? Lancashire was then treated as an integral part of this Kingdom, and the question became an Imperial one. Why was famine in Ireland, dealt with as a local question? In the case of the Lancashire Cotton Famine, £1,200,000 was advanced directly to the local authorities for the execution of permanent works. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: At what rate of interest?] He would come to that presently. They extended the period of re-payment to 30 years. In regard to Ireland, they now proposed to make the advance of £500,000 out of a purely Irish fund re-payable, in some cases, in 10 years. [The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER: In 37 years.] The money which was to be advanced to the landlords was not to be repaid in 10 years; but some of the advances to public bodies were to be repaid in 10 years instead of in 30, as was the case with the Lancashire loan. The difference between the periods allowed made up for the difference in the rate of interest, which was 3½ per cent in the Lancashire instance. Moreover, in the Lancashire ease there were provisions for extending the time of re-payment. The advances during the Lancashire distress were made directly to the local authorities for the purpose of works of a permanent character, whereas no such advances in the case of Ireland were to be made to the Boards of Guardians. The Government treated Ireland differently from Lancashire; and he protested againt making the relief of distress in Ireland a merely local question when the Imperial funds were without objection applied to the relief of the distress in Lancashire. He appealed to the Government to deal with the distress in Ireland in as just and fair a spirit as the distress in Lancashire had been dealt with, and to provide for the emergency out of Imperial resources. They had no right to take the Church Surplus, for it already belonged to the people for other purposes.

MR. ALDERMAN COTTON

, referring to the allusions which had been made to the Lancashire distress, said, he was in a position to inform the House that on that occasion the relief had been mainly by very large private subscriptions. In London £520,000 had been raised, and every penny of it distributed; and by the Central Belief Committee in Lancashire, of which the late Earl of Derby was Chairman, £1,250,000 or more had, been raised, not all of it being distributed. For his own part, he could not understand how hon. Members opposite could believe for a moment that the Government would be indifferent to this great calamity, or could believe that Ireland was not almost an eternal worry to them. Knowing that hon. Member after hon. Member would rise in his place and denounce the Government when Parliament met, they were not likely, even apart from any other consideration, to withhold their most serious consideration from the calamity impending in Ireland. The Irish Members seemed to him to take the bread that was offered, to them and to throw it over their heads, instead of putting it in the mouths of a famishing people. He called upon Irish Members to desist from using epithets in reference to the Government, and from expressing sentiments calculated to produce a false impression on the minds of the Irish people, which might not be eradicated for years, and which he could not believe the Irish Members themselves could believe in, except as sentiments useful for political purposes.

MR. COGAN

said, the question before the House was simply whether the funds to be charged for partially relieving the existing distress should be purely Irish funds, or whether they should be Imperial funds, as was the case in 1863 in the Lancashire Cotton Famine. He trusted the debate would not conclude until they heard in some intelligible and conclusive manner why the Government purposed taking, with regard to a national calamity in one part of the United Kingdom, a course different from that which they had pursued on a previous occasion of the kind. He had heard no good reason yet given for subjecting Ireland to the exceptional treatment now proposed, and should therefore support the Amendment, believing that this national calamity in Ireland ought to be met out of the National Exchequer. Attempts had been made from time to time to fritter away the Irish Church Surplus Fund, which the Act of Parliament had intended should be appropriated for the permanent benefit of the whole of Ireland; whereas the object of the present Bill was to meet an exigency now existing in parts of that country, and not in the whole of it.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Cogan), that in the proposal now submitted to the House there was anything which ran counter to the Act of Parliament which dealt with the Irish Church property. The right hon. Member said it was never contemplated by that Act that the money should be expended on local matters, but only for purposes which could benefit the whole of Ireland. He would find, however, if he referred to the words of the Act, that it stated that the Church Surplus should be appropriated mainly to the relief of unavoidable calamity and suffering, and there was nothing in it which said that the calamity and suffering must equally prevail at the same moment in all parts of Ireland. He maintained, therefore, that the Government wore fully justified in proposing to use a portion of that Fund for a purpose like the present one. The hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) had compared the treatment Lancashire received in a great emergency with that received by Ireland, and appeared to think—and, no doubt, did so with perfect sincerity—that the comparison was unfavourable to the latter country. Now, the money advanced to Lancashire was advanced at 3½ per cent. But it was said the period of re-payment was easier and more advantageous to the borrower in the case of Lancashire. [Mr. SYNAN: In some cases.] Well, the principle on which they had gone in regard to these repayments was that the payments should be regulated according to the operation of the ordinary law, with certain excep- tions. The period for re-payment was to extend as long as the benefit to be derived from the contemplated works should last. For example, in regard to advances for paving, it was impossible that loans for works of such an ephemeral description should be allowed to burden the ratepayers for SO or 40 years. The loans under the Public Health Act varied in the times of re-payment from two years up to 50, according as the work was of a permanent or a temporary character. With regard to advances to Irish landowners, the Government had relaxed the ordinary rules as to re-payment, and they had done it on that principle. It had been represented on authority given in evidence that the benefit arising from draining would extend over a longer period than 22 years; and they had, therefore, extended the time for repayment. Anyone who chose to study what was done in Lancashire would find that the terms offered to Ireland were more liberal than those imposed in Lancashire. He was not referring to the large amount of local contributions raised in Lancashire; but the hon. and learned Member for Kildare had spoken of benefits conferred on the landowners as if they were a national injury to Ireland. That notion seemed to underlie a great many of the fallacies to which they had listened for several nights. But to say that advances made to persons in possession of the soil for the purpose of improving the soil could be considered as a national injury appeared to him a proposition which did not require an answer in that House. The ground on which the Government had selected the landowners as the medium for giving employment and wages to the people was one which he thought must commend itself to the common sense of every hon. Member. The Government had felt itself bound to adopt exceptional measures to meet the extraordinary distress which prevailed in certain parts of Ireland. They might have had recourse to the system which broke down before—namely, that of public relief works conducted by the State; but it seemed better to allow employment to find its way to the people through the ordinary sources. They had, therefore, enabled owners of land to apply large sums of money, amounting already, he believed, to something like £500,000, upon the express condition that the works upon which they were to be expended should be confined to such occupations as would afford immediate employment to unskilled labour. Buildings and other works, however profitable, which did not fulfil this condition, were not to enjoy the facilities they granted. If there was one thing more than another for which the Government deserved credit, he thought it was for avoiding any unnecessary disturbance of the ordinary relations between employer and employed, and for having in no way set aside the ordinary sources of employment of labour in the country. The hon. and learned Member for Kildare had spoken of lavish distribution of charitable funds. It was a pity that such an expression should go forth from the House of Commons. There was no reason to believe that those excellent organizations which, fortunately, had come to the aid of distress in Ireland had been distributed upon a lavish scale. No doubt, it was the intention of those who distributed those funds to meet every case of need which came before them; but it would be a great injury to the good cause of charity if it went forth from that House that the distribution of those funds had been in any manner extravagant. The hon. and learned Member had also spoken of the largo inroads which had been already made in the Irish Church Surplus Fund, as though he would have liked every penny of it to be embarked in the speculation of endeavouring by artificial means to create a peasant proprietary in Ireland. But his hon. and learned Friend was himself, perhaps as much as anyone, responsible for a very considerable inroad into that Fund, an inroad which had commended itself to the general opinion of Ireland and of every portion of the United Kingdom. The hon. and learned Member seemed to proceed upon the assumption that any sum advanced out of that Church Surplus Fund would be lost, and some hon. Members had appeared to think that the Government were unfairly protecting the Consolidated Fund at its expense. But this would imply that the Unions of Ireland were not capable of maintaining their credit. The Government proposed to lend money, in the first place, upon the security of the landed property; and he supposed the hon. and learned Member would admit that to be good enough They also proposed to lend upon the security of the rates; and this, he presumed, the hon. and learned Member did not think good enough. But he hoped his prognostications of ill would not be fulfilled, and that, as had been the case up to the present time in Lancashire, not one penny would be lost. He thought the House must have seen that the Government had, in the present crisis, exerted themselves to meet everything that could be reasonably urged upon the Executive, and that, without discouraging local effort or charitable organization, they had in no way failed in their duty. And lie further believed that the House and the country would not for a moment believe they had neglected their duty.

MR. SHAW

hoped the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Synan) would not divide the House that evening upon his Amendment, as there would be another opportunity of discussing its principle upon the question of the Speaker leaving the Chair. The Government had already taken action on the lines of the Bill, and he was sure they would all be willing to pass a measure of indemnity to the Government for what they had already done; all the Irish Members complained of being that they had not acted with sufficient promptness. It was certainly not his opinion that any benefit conferred upon the landlords must be a public injury, and he did not know from what hon. Member's speeches the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland could have gathered such an idea. He thought the drainage of land was one of the best things that could be done, and the lending of money at a low rate of interest for that purpose would be not only an immense advantage to the community, but would also bring labour nearer than any other way to the workmen. Every provision in this direction deserved great praise. What they blamed the Government for was for not issuing the Circular of the 12th of January on the 12th of October. They also feared lest the landlords, after getting this £500,000 of public money at 1 per cent, by means of which the land would be increased in value, should thereafter raise the rents. He was sure the Government did not wish that; but it was hardly in human nature to do otherwise. Foreseeing that such a result would be sure to raise unpleasant relations between landlord and tenant, he hoped the Government would insert some words to prevent the raising of rents on account of the improvements effected by means of public money. It would be a great hardship that public money given at such a crisis, freely and generously, should be followed by a burden which, in some cases, the people would not be able to bear. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had announced what was a matter of great importance—namely, that the proposed works should not be confined to mere road-making and road-fencing. He hoped that the Government proposals were not all that Ministers intended to do. He did not ask them to answer him at once; but if the Bill embodied the whole of their scheme he did not think it would be worth taking. He thought that they ought to make a grant to Ireland, and he thought that Ireland had a right to expect such a grant as had been made in 1847. The Irish people were unfairly taxed, and that was an additional reason for a grant. No doubt, there was a great outflow of charity; but charity would not help the small farmers, and would not be a permanent benefit. He hoped the Government would give another opportunity of considering the measure, and would not press it forward too hastily.

MR. SYNAN

said, he would not ask the House to take the trouble of a useless division, but repeat his Motion on going into Committee. He was determined that the Treasury Bench and the Opposition Bench should speak out further on the subject.

Amendment, by leave,withdrawn.Main Question put, andagreed to.Bill read a second time, andcommittedforMondaynext.