§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI now rise to ask leave to introduce a Bill to render valid certain proceedings which have been taken to relieve the distress in Ireland, and to make further provision for such relief. I have already in the course of this evening explained in general terms what the course of the Government has been, and what the principal provisions of the Bill which I propose to introduce are. I think it will not be necessary that I should now take up the time of the House with any further explanation of those provisions. There is only one point on which I ought to say a word of explanation. With reference to the proposition found in the Bill, that a certain proportion of the advances shall be made on the security of the Fund now administered by the Irish Church Temporalities Commission, I wish to explain that the Bill is so drawn as to give power to those Commissioners to raise money, to a certain extent, upon the security of the proceeds of the Fund, and that money so advanced will not be entirely lost to the Fund, because it will be in the nature of an advance which is to be ultimately repaid. Of course, it will take more time than the advances from the sister Fund. With regard to the reasons for that proposition, my principal reason is that we are making these advances upon a different principle from that which we adopted in the case of the original ad- 239 vance. I think, therefore, that it is more convenient, as these advances are made upon exceptional grounds and upon exceptional principles, that they should be made from a fund which is exceptional in its character. I feel that there would be considerable difficulty, if, instead of doing that, we made these advances from the Exchequer balances, in meeting claims which might be advanced from other parts of the United Kingdom. There is one other thing I wish to say with regard to what is called the Irish Church Surplus. I think there is a considerable amount of misconception with regard to the nature of that Fund. The circumstances in which the property administered by the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners now is are these. They receive a considerable annual income, speaking roughly, of about £600,000, derived partly from the tithes, partly from rents and perpetuity charges. Upon that there are various charges, the main one being for the re-payment of the debt which they have incurred to the National Debt Commissioners. When the Irish Church Act was passed, a large advance was made from the funds in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners to the Irish Church Commissioners in order to enable them to carry through the operations of that system. That Fund has been gradually reduced, but it still amounts to the large sum of £5,700,000. Now, the Irish Temporalities Commissioners are bound, in the first place, to pay interest on the amount of debt outstanding, and also all other charges upon the Fund. The balance, whatever it may be each year, is to go in re-payment of the principal of the debt, although there is no fixed sum which they are annually bound to repay. At present, the charges come to so much that the annual surplus available for re-payment does not amount to more than between £200,000 and £300,000 a-year. Of course, every charge you lay upon the Fund is in the nature of a postponement of the re-payment to the National Debt Commissioners. Now, at the rate at which the reduction of the debt is proceeding at the present time, it will be cancelled somewhere about 1893 or 1894. But these charges which we are about to lay on the Fund will defer still longer the re-payment of the debt. I shall have, during the Session, to lay proposals be- 240 fore the House with regard to the Fund in order to regulate the principle of repayment. I mention that, because it is convenient now; but the point has no direct connection with the propositions made in the present Bill, which is that the sum of £500,000 shall be charged upon the property of the Irish Church Temporalities Commission, and that that sum shall be advanced. There will be no difficulty in making the necessary financial arrangements, and I hope the House will sanction the first reading of the Bill. I do not at present challenge any expression of opinion upon it, and I only make this explanation because it refers to a part of the Bill I have as yet had no opportunity to mention.
§ MR. CHILDERS,without at present raising any objection to the course proposed, said, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain a little more minutely the process by which these loans were to be made. If he understood rightly, the Church Temporalities Commission in Ireland had no fund whatever of its own, but was in debt to the extent of between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000 to the Savings Banks of the United Kingdom, which debt was very slowly being paid off. "When, therefore, it was proposed to charge the Church Temporalities Fund with these loans, it meant nothing more nor less than that the Savings Banks would really find the money—either actually advancing it, or deducting it from the re-payments to them. On the other hand, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not explained who would be responsible for the security of the loans. At present all money advanced by the Government, whether directly from the Exchequer or indirectly from the Savings Banks Fund, was advanced upon the responsibility of some public body, whom the public required to be satisfied as to the security. He wished to know who would be the agency to satisfy the public and the Government of the security for each advance, and who would direct the Church Temporalities Commissioners to provide the principal.
§ MR. SHAWquite agreed that this was hardly the time to discuss the questions referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, especially as they would receive a good deal of discussion from that part of the House. He saw the force of the various reasons that the right hon. Gen- 241 tleman had given in support of the measure; and probably, when they came to discuss the Bill more fully, they would find that the means proposed was the best way to get the money. It might be, however, that some things in the Bill would require immediate action; and he would beg the right hon. Gentleman not to postpone doing those things on which the lives of a number of people might depend until the termination of a discussion which, no matter how good their intentions, might occupy a considerable time. With regard to the question of extending the operation of out-door relief, he had no doubt there were many districts where it ought to be instituted at once; and he had no doubt, if the Government would take upon itself the responsibility of directing the Irish Local Government Board to issue the necessary orders, that the House would sanction their action.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREasked at what rate the loan would be made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners, as without that information he could not understand what the exact loss would be from the difference between the two rates of interest?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERWith regard to taking measures at once for the extension of out-door relief, many weeks, and even I may say months since, the Government communicated with the Local Government Board, and instructed them that where it was found absolutely necessary out-door relief should be given in food or fuel to able-bodied persons. With regard to the provision that relief should not be given to able-bodied persons or others in the occupation of a quarter of an acre of land, we have ordered that such relief shall, when really necessary, be given, notwithstanding those provisions of the law. [Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE: When?] I cannot now go into details which may require a long explanation; but I occupy the position of President of the Irish Local Government Board. I verbally gave the instructions to which I have referred to the Vice President, and I am responsible for those instructions. The instructions were that when it was found necessary to avert famine, and subject to the special approval of the Local Government Board, out-door relief should be given, but that no relief of this exceptional kind should be given except where it was specially 242 approved by the Local Government Board.
§ MR. CHARLEYhoped that the measures of the Government would not be confined to loans, but that they would resort to the policy of 1848, and undertake public works in Ireland. How was it possible for a landlord with heavy mortgages on his property to pay the interest on the loan, and also the interest on the mortgages, the heavy poor rates, tithe-rent charge, and other charges, while he had no rent paid by his tenants? It might be a question also whether the mortgagees would consent to his obtaining a loan from the Government, as it would take priority of the mortgagees.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI will not enter into all the questions now raised, because that would rather be travelling beyond what I understood to be our course. In answer, however, to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), I may say that the course of proceeding is explained in the 17th clause of the Bill. That throws the duty of selecting the works upon which money is to be advanced upon the Commissioners of Public Works, who are now intrusted with that duty, and the money will be distributed by them on their responsibility. The Church Temporalities Commissioners will advance, on the direction of the Treasury, such sums out of this sum of £500,000 as will be necessary to supply the Commissioners of Works with the necessary funds. The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) asks what will be the rate of interest charged by the National Debt Commissioners to the Church Temporalities Commissioners. I imagine it will be at the rate of 3¾ per cent, which was the rate at which it was lent last time, and the rate at which it will be lent to the public will be 1 per cent. Therefore, to that extent, the Church Fund will bear the loss.
§ MAJOR NOLANhoped that public works in the true sense, such large works as railroads and tramways, would be included in the scheme of the Government. With regard to the question of the distribution of this money, he thought it would be much better that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give way, and put it on the Union and not on the populous districts which would require the greatest amount of 243 assistance. Otherwise they might have the question raised of Union rating. There were many good points in the Bill, such, for instance, as that the county cess should be paid by the landlord, which he regarded as a very fair provision.
§ MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYobserved, that some changes might advantageously be made in the administration of indoor poor relief. At present, if a father was unable to support his wife or any of his children, and wanted to obtain indoor relief for any of them, he and his wife must also go into the house. In ordinary times, and under ordinary circumstances, that was a very good provision, because it threw on the parent the responsibility of providing for his family. Now, however, though a father might be utterly unable to maintain all his family, if he could send some of them into the workhouse and remain himself outside honestly doing his best to support the rest, he would be able to retain his work, and in time to take them out again. That was a very important means of preventing an increase in pauperism, and he hoped it would receive the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ MAJOR O'GORMANwished to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the admirable Bill he had just brought forward. He was very much pleased to learn that great care was to be taken that the labour of the people should not be altogether devoted to remunerative public works to the exclusion of farming operations. He would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would take into his consideration the desirability of supplying the farmers in the distressed districts with seed potatoes? They would require about 500,000 barrels of the best Scotch Champion potatoes, the present price of which, roughly speaking, was about £1 a barrel. He did not, of course, wish the Government to give this seed for nothing. It must be poor land in Ireland that would not return at least 40 barrels to the acre. When he was a boy they used to get 100 barrels an acre with the greatest possible ease, but not so now. One barrel would be sufficient for seed for a quarter of an acre. That would raise 10 barrels, and it surely 244 would not be unjust to ask the cultivator from his next year's crop to return to the Government one barrel as principal and another barrel as interest. If that were done, the Government would have interest at 100 per cent on their loan. He had lain awake for nights thinking of this proposal; and as it would involve no loss to the Treasury, and could be easily carried out, he did very heartily hope and trust that the Government would accede to his suggestion. The right hon. Gentleman had brought in his Bill in the most handsome manner; and he hoped, therefore, he would consent to give these poor people relief in the form recommended, and which they wanted most. If it were not given, the simple result would be that next year they would have another famine equal to the one in whose awful presence they at present stood. He mentioned Scotch seed, because it was necessary to change the seed occasionally, or the crop would fail.
§ Motionagreed to.
§ Bill to render valid certain proceedings taken for the Relief of Distress in Ireland, and to make further provision for such relief; and for other purposes,orderedto be brought in by Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. JAMES LOWTIIER, Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON, and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND.
§ Billpresented,and read the first time. [Bill 1.]