§ (12.) £671,367, to complete the sum for Half-Pay, Navy.
§ SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he did not wish to detain the Committee on this Vote; but he wished to point out that the amount of it was increasing, and without any special benefit to the Service. The fact was that promotion in the Navy had now become worse than it had been for a very considerable period of time. The Lieutenants List was maintained at a number of about 850, and the promotions were becoming so slow that it was becoming a seniority Service, the lieutenants not being promoted according to their rank. This was a process extremely disadvantageous to the Profession, in that it had the effect of making it extremely unpopular. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would take this matter into serious consideration during the Recess, in order, by increasing the number of captains and 744 commanders, to give a proper flow of promotion from the rank of lieutenant. It was thought that the heavy Retired List would secure rapid promotion; but that had not been the case, and, as he had said, great dissatisfaction had resulted, and was likely to go on increasing. He had taken considerable pains to ascertain the feelings of the Profession on this subject; and he had long ago made some extensive calculations on the subject; but he should not trouble the Committee with them at that late period of the Session. He would content himself with urging the great importance of adopting some plan which would have the effect of quickening promotion in the Service.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREcould not admit that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was right in saying that promotion in the Navy was in an unsatisfactory condition. As far as he had been able to ascertain, promotion in the higher ranks was in a satisfactory condition, and the retirement scheme of 1870 had worked well. There was, however, much that was worth consideration as far as the promotions of lieutenant was concerned. The causes of the grievance pointed out in this respect were of a temporary nature, and were due to the large number of entries which had taken place since 1859 and in the three or four years following. It was from this cause that the Lieutenants' List had suffered and was now suffering. In 1857 the number of entries was not more than 115; but in 1859 it ran up to 239, and in subsequent years there had been an average of about 200. He did not think a remedy would be found in the increase of the list of unemployed commanders by promoting a number of lieutenants to the rank of commander. To do that would diminish the chances of the commanders getting employment, and would not, therefore, in his view, provide a wise remedy. He could not at present say whether it would be possible to devise some other scheme by means of which to reduce the number of surplus lieutenants; but he could assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Committee that the subject was one which should receive careful consideration at the hands of the Admiralty during the Recess. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would bring the question forward next Session, he should, he 745 hoped, be able to give him fuller and more satisfactory information concerning it.
§ CAPTAIN PRICEsaid, the right hon. and gallant Member was mistaken as to the overflow of promotion. His own view was that there was not a sufficient number of officers in the upper list; that, in some cases, it would be well to employ two commanders on board a large iron-clad. If that could not be done, he saw no reason why a class of lieutenant commanders should not be instituted, in order to meet the difficulty. He was very strongly of opinion that such an arrangement would prove of great advantage to the Service.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHhoped Her Majesty's Government would be extremely careful in dealing with a question of this importance. He was aware of the extreme difficulty which surrounded any question of promotion and retirement. The Lieutenants' List had been greatly enlarged during the last few years; and he was extremely doubtful whether it was greater than was necessary for the requirements of the Service in actual employment. He felt that this particular class of officers deserved every consideration; but as there were also other interests to be considered, the question became one of great difficulty, which it would behove the Government carefully to consider. At a time like the present suggestions for promotion and retirement might be made which would have a great deal to recommend them; but the Government had to consider not only the present claims of the officers, but what they would become in the new rank to which they aspired. He admitted that,' in his view, the officers now at the top of the list had every claim to consideration; but, at the same time, he could not conceal from himself that the matter was a very grave one, and one that demanded the most careful consideration.
§ MR. BIGGARwished to receive some information as to the intentions of the Government in reference to the claim of Mr. John Clare. He had not been able to extract any information from the Admiralty on the subject.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREpointed out that the hon. Member was out of Order, in that the case of Mr. Clare had nothing to do with the Vote before the Committee.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, in the circumstances, he would not press the question further; but he certainly hoped the Government would be able to make some statement on the subject early in next Session.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (13.) £617,415, to complete the sum for Military Pensions and Allowances.
§ (14.) £241,821, to complete the sum for Civil Pensions and Allowances.
§ (15.) £128,625, to complete the sum for Extra Estimate for Services not Naval.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he should like, either at the present moment or at some time before the Prorogation, to receive some information as to the experiments recently made at Shoeburyness with the 6-inch guns, in that his information was to the effect that those guns were inferior in penetration and range to the new guns of a similar calibre now being furnished to foreign Navies.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, he was not able at present to make any statement on the subject; but he could say that the matter was under consideration. It was quite possible, however, that he would be able to make a statement in a few days.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he would not press the question on the present occasion; but he need not impress upon the hon. Gentleman or upon his Colleagues the very vital importance of the question. He thought he was not guilty of exaggeration when he said that, at the present time, the guns supplied to the Navy were inferior to the new guns which were now furnished to the Navies of other countries; and, therefore, it was a matter of the utmost importance that no time should be lost in furnishing our ships with such guns as would place them on an equality, at least, with the ships belonging to other countries. It would be a great national misfortune if our Navy were to be allowed to lapse into inferiority.
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, that no one more than himself felt the necessity of preserving the high character of the Navy; and he could assure the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) that the matter to which he had called atten- 747 tion should be fully considered by the Government.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
(16.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £109,645, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Expenses of Greenwich Hospital and School, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881.
§ CAPTAIN PRICEmoved that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £1,500. If the Vote had come on a month or six weeks ago he should have asked the Committee to indulge him for some time; but, under the circumstances, he should not now detain the Committee more than a very few minutes. The reason why he asked the Committee to reduce this Vote was because it had been found necessary to limit the amount of pensions which were given to our seamen from the funds of Greenwich Hospital. This limitation had been imposed because of late a great strain had been put upon the Hospital Fund which was not foreseen many years ago—in fact, the number of men coming on this fund now far exceeded the number who were pensioned from the fund 10, 15, or 20 years ago; and the cause of that was that the late Government thought fit to place a limitation upon the pensions of the men. But a limitation was not placed upon the pensions of the officers, and that was what he now rose to complain of. It was argued, and argued very properly, that if there was not enough for all, why not take something away from the officers as well as the men? The men had some amount of reason on their side. There were 10 flag officers who received pensions from the Greenwich Hospital Fund of £150 a-year each, making, in the aggregate, £1,500. Every one of those officers had served his country well; and he was convinced each of them was fully entitled to the pension awarded him by the Admiralty. He did not desire that any one of those officers should suffer by having his pension reduced, although he asked the Committee to reduce the Vote. He knew that, if he were successful in carrying his Motion, the very first thing that Her Majesty's Government would do to-morrow would be to come down to the House and ask for a grant from the 748 Consolidated Fund to compensate the officers, and he should be the very first to support the Government in such a course. It was only fair they should do so; but if it was fair that the officers should be compensated for loss of pension, was he not right in asking that the seamen, who had been deprived of pensions which they had been long expecting, should be remunerated also out of the Consolidated Fund? It was not open for him to make any such Motion; but he could, however, throw out the suggestion. It was the only way of meeting the question. Of this there was no doubt, that faith had not been kept with the seamen, many of whom, having served 35, 40, or 45 years, had been led to expect a pension. By reason of the limitation to which he had already alluded, they would be deprived of their pensions; and he did not think it was too much to ask the House to make a temporary grant to meet the difficulty, and to ask the Government to make a grant out of the Consolidated Fund to supplement the Greenwich Hospital Fund. So long ago as 1834 the Government granted £22,000 in this way; and that, he contended, formed a precedent for what he suggested the Government should do at the present time. He believed that a grant of £1,000 would be sufficient to meet the present emergency. He had no desire that the thing should be made retrospective; but he believed that to make such a grant would only be an act of justice to our seamen.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Item of £5,720, Pensions to Flag and other Officers, he reduced by the sum of £1,500."—(Captain Price.)
§ MR. T. BRASSEYsaid, our gallant seamen, who were represented in this House by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Price), had an indefatigable champion who had always shown the deepest interest in their cause. In answer to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, he had to say that when the present Government came into Office they were aware that this question had been most carefully considered by the late Board of Admiralty, and, as they felt sure, in a spirit of sympathy and consideration for the seamen. The present Government thought it extremely undesirable that it should go forth that when they came into Office the seamen might expect in- 749 stant changes, either in the pay or pensions they were to receive; and, for that reason, they were anxious to take time to consider the matter. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Price) had spoken of this matter as if the funds of Greenwich Hospital were insufficient to meet the demands of his clients. That was not the case. Up to April last only 45 men had been affected, a saving of £283 accruing to the Greenwich Hospital Fund. Although it must be obvious that this was merely a question of principle, he might mention that, under the arrangements made by the late Board of Admiralty, the seamen, as a body, had derived enormous benefits. The number of pensioners in receipt of 2s. 6d. a-day had been increased from 5,000 to 7,500; and, therefore, if the seamen, in the judgment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, had a grievance in the case of the very limited number of men who were affected by the recent changes, on the whole there could be no question that the funds of Greenwich Hospital had been administered in a manner which had conduced to the advantage of the seamen generally.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, that his hon. Friend (Mr. Brassey) had only given a fair statement of the case so far as the funds of Greenwich Hospital were concerned. When the Government came into Office they found that the number of persons capable of receiving Greenwich Hospital pensions were limited to 5,000. The careful administration, however, of his right hon. Friend the Member for South Devon (Sir Stafford North-cote) resulted in such an accumulation of the funds as admitted of the number of pensioners being increased to 7,500. It was quite an error to suppose that every seamen was entitled to a pension. The number of recipients of pensions was limited by the amount available for the purpose of pensions. It never was the case that every seaman was entitled to a pension, but every seamen was eligible if the funds permitted a pension to be awarded; and until his right hon. Friend (Sir Stafford North-cote) had charge of the funds, they were not capable of providing pensions for a larger number than 5,000. It appeared to the late Board of Admiralty that the man who was receiving 2s. 6d. a-day had certainly not as great a claim for an increase of his pension as the man re- 750 ceiving no pension had for a pension. He preferred to say, therefore, that the man who received 2s. 6d. a-day as a maximum was not qualified to receive a greater pension so long as there were persons eligible for pensions who were not receiving them.
§ SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he was not going to support his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Price) in the reduction of the Vote; but, inasmuch as he was one of the officers on the Committee of the Greenwich Hospital, he might be permitted to make a few remarks. He watched the case through all its various stages. A fear was expressed at the time the Greenwich Hospital Estates were sold, and when the changes were made, that, in consequence of these occurrences, a gradual increment of property would be lost to the seamen of the Navy. It was answered at the time, he thought, by the present Secretary of State for War (Mr. Childers), that the Navy need be under no misapprehension, that it would be all met by the public funds, and that the Consolidated Fund would bear any expense that might be necessary. [Mr. CHILDERS dissented.] His right hon. Friend shook his head. He (Sir John Hay) understood at the time that the increment was lost to the Navy; and it was stated—and he believed by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War himself—that that would be easily made up by charges on the Consolidated Fund; and he (Sir John Hay) thought it had been at various times. The late First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. W. H. Smith) had stated that every seaman was not entitled to a pension. Every man of good conduct was entitled to a pension after certain service. [Mr. W. H. Smith: Eligible.] Well, every seaman was eligible; and he expected pension. Men of good conduct who had served, it might be to the age of 55 years, did not receive pensions, and that was what they complained of. It had been said that the new arrangements had only resulted in a saving of £283. But the number of persons entitled to pensions was rapidly increasing; and now was the time to make arrangements which would provide for the considerable additions which would shortly be made to the list.
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, he would state what were the real facts of the case. When the Greenwich Hospital Acts 751 were passing through the House he stated that he believed that in a very few years, from the natural increment of the estate and from the exceptional charges for the men actually in the Hospital falling off, ev9ry seaman who had reached 55 years of age would get a pension of 6d. a-day, and every seaman who had attained 70 years of age would get a pension of 9d. a-day. That had been more than realized, because not only were the men of 55 years getting 6d. a-day, but men of 65, not 70, years of age were receiving 9d. a-day.
§ SIR JOHN HAYsaid, that the object of pensions was to do away with punishment in the Navy. They all knew how distasteful it was to the Committee that punishment should be continued in the Navy with the severity of former days, and that it had been attempted to introduce a more humane system of discipline. The Pension List was founded as an inducement to men to continue to serve; and he maintained that it was in the interest of the country and of the Profession that men who had served honourably should receive the pensions they had been led to expect.
§ CAPTAIN PRICEsaid, he now wished to withdraw his Amendment. His hon. Friend the Civil Lord of the Admiralty had thrown a new light upon the subject. He (Captain Price) could quite corroborate what his right hon. and gallant Friend (Sir John Hay) had said as to the pensions being invariably given. The right hon. Gentleman the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. W. H. Smith) had said the men were only eligible for a pension. As a matter of fact, every man who was of good conduct and had attained 55 years got a pension. The Civil Lord of the Admiralty ha,d pointed out that the change had only produced a saving to the Greenwich Hospital Funds of £283. That, however, was only because a limited number of men had since the change attained the age of 55. In five or six years' time, however, the number of such men would be largely augmented.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ CAPTAIN PRICEsaid, he observed that a very large sum—£125,000—had been advanced to the Board of Trade from the Greenwich Hospital Funds in 752 respect to annuities under the Act of 1872. The Act of 1872 provided that annuities should be given to merchant seamen, but that that should be done under a Regulation jointly made by the Board of Trade and the Admiralty. Could the Secretary to the Admiralty inform them what the Regulations were which had been made, and whether or not the annuities were likely to cease before long?
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that the arrangements in respect to the annuities referred to were made by the Board of Trade. The arrangements of 1872 were made very much upon his suggestion; and he made that suggestion with the view of preventing any further claims from the Merchant Service coming upon the Greenwich Hospital Fund. He believed that that had been the effect.
§ CAPTAIN PRICEasked when the annuities would cease altogether? He noticed that the grants were made very irregularly, and he would like to know whether any grant would be made next year?
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that it was only the seamen serving before 1874 who were entitled to the annuities. They would in time disappear.
§ MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, it would be a very satisfactory thing if the Secretary to the Admiralty would cause to be prepared and circulated a Paper showing the entire charge to the Greenwich Hospital Funds in respect to these pensions.
§ MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, he would endeavour to prepare such a statement.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.