§
(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding£92,923, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, for the Erection, Repairs, and Maintenance of the several Public Buildings under the Department of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that before the Vote was passed, he wished to put one or two questions to the Government. He saw, under sub-head "13" for "new works and alterations," the sum of£325 put down on account of additions, alterations, and improvements at certain Coastguard stations. This included a re-Vote of£300. Well, when he turned to the Appropriation Account for last year, as to which the accounts were complete, he saw that under a similar head there was voted two years ago£2,000 for the station at Innislyre—a re-Vote of a sum which had already been granted by the Committee. Going back so far as 1876, £3,000 was taken for a station at Kilmichael, and there were other stations for which money which had already been granted was re-voted. Of the£3,000 voted for Innislyre,£428 would be returned into the Treasury, and the explanation of this money not being expended was that the excessively severe weather had prevented the buildings from being completed. Of the sum of£13,000 voted since 1876 for a number of stations, and which had been voted and re-voted,£5,000 had been re- 399 turned to the Treasury. Of the£2,000 voted and re-voted for the station at Kilmichael,£1,900 had been returned into the Treasury. The reason alleged was that the works had been prevented by difficulties which had arisen last year. Only 60 per cent of the amount of the previous year was returned to the Treasury unexpended. This year the sum was only£325, including a re-Vote of£300, which gave only£25 on account of fresh demands. It was perfectly evident, therefore, that a large number of these works had been abandoned. In many cases the works intrusted to the Board of Works in Ireland were going to rack and ruin for the want of the expenditure on them of the means which the Committee had over and over again voted for those purposes. He wished to know from the noble Lord the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Frederick Cavendish) what was the condition of the buildings at Innislyre and Kilmichael, for which the Committee had voted such large sums of money since 1868? The works were still incomplete, and this year the Treasury did not make any allowance for them.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the Vote under sub-head "B" was not for repairs, but for additions, alterations, and improvements. He presumed that those who prepared these Estimates were carefully investigating this subject, and that it was not necessary at present to add to, or improve, these Coastguard stations. There was no reason to believe that they were not properly maintained. As to the exact sum voted last year not having been spent, and the sum voted in previous years not having been expended, everyone acquainted with the work of buildings would know that it was impossible to take the exact sum which a certain building would cost. When the accounts were prepared some months before, it was impossible to put down the exact sum that would have to be expended, therefore a margin was always allowed.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORadmitted he was wrong with regard to repairs; but he wished to know whether these buildings, for which money had been voted, and not been expended, had been abandoned? He wished to ask with reference to a hut at Greenore, which figured on page 46—£120 which had 400 been voted and re-voted in these Estimates year after year for, he believed, four years—whether the building had been yet taken in hand? He did not think it had.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the buildings in question had been sanctioned by Parliament; but he was unable to make a statement as to the exact condition of the Coastguard buildings, as he was not perfectly acquainted with them. The decision was come to as to what additions and alterations were required when the Estimates were prepared.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, what he wished to point out was this— that in regard to this Vote, as was the case with many other Votes connected with works in Ireland, though the Committee voted the money, the Board of Works in Ireland did not use it. Very frequently they were told—and reference was made to these Votes to prove the statement—that Ireland received a fair share of public money. Now, his contention was that this was entirely fallacious. Reference to these Votes was fallacious, because, though the Committee voted the money and intended it to be spent, the Board of Works in Ireland neglected the opportunities which were so placed in its hands, and did not lay out the money. There was another instance of this. This year there was a demand made for Constabulary Barracks; and in reference to the Appropriation Account of last year, he found that, whereas£200 was voted for certain barracks,£120 was not spent. The explanation was such as was hardly worth printing—namely, that the progress had been slower than had been anticipated, owing to the weather having been very bad. Then there was a sum of£280 voted for stables at Sligo and only£245 expended, the explanation being the same—namely, the impossibility of making the anticipated progress owing to the state of the weather. It seemed to him that this was a perfect farce. Money was voted for certain works in Ireland; but the Board of Works neglected to use it. In England the state of things was just the opposite. Whatever sums were voted, in nine cases out of ten, the Votes would be exceeded and the excess wiped off by a Supplementary Estimate, or by the appropriation of other items. As to Constabulary Bar- 401 racks, it would be mere affectation on his part to appear willing to allow the Vote to pass without challenging it. Under the head of Constabulary Buildings he found an item of£630 for two moveable huts in Phoenix Park, an item for Constabulary Barracks at another place, one of£4,000 for the conversion of certain bridewells into barracks, another item of£790 for barracks. This was hardly the time at which to raise the Constabulary question; therefore, he would not raise it, but would merely content himself with entering that protest, which, he thought, as an Irish Member, he ought to enter against the Constabulary system, by moving the reduction of the Vote by£2,300, the amount mentioned for Constabulary buildings.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £90,623, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, for the Erection, Repairs, and Maintenance of several Public Buildings under the Department of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland."— (Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)
§ MR. FINIGANsaid, he had proposed to call attention to these Votes; but, being bound by the understanding which his Leader had entered into with the Committee, he did not think he could do anything more than offer a very brief protest against Ireland being dotted all over with these various police barracks, or "military brracks," as they ought more properly to be called. He would merely call attention to the Report of the Commissioners of Public Works, in which they referred to no less than seven large barracks which they had erected throughout Ireland, and to several bridewells which they had converted into barracks. When the Government, in furtherance of its assurances, proposed to take into its serious consideration the alteration of the whole police system in Ireland—or, rather, of the military system in Ireland—he trusted that something would be done to remove the barracks, so that the country might not be covered with them as though it were one vast English camp. He was quite sure if the Government really wished to enter into pacific relations with Ireland, and to rule the country in the interests of the people, and not as if they were 402 foreign masters, they would find no use whatever for the Constabulary barracks. They would find the best Constabulary would be the respect to the law which their conduct would engender.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ MR. FOLEYsaid, he wished to attract the attention of the Government to the advisability of reducing the Vote by£936, being the sum fixed upon for the maintenance and support of the Royal College of Science in Ireland. He would not occupy the Committee more than a few minues; but he thought it necessary to put a few facts before them upon the question. The Vote for the Royal College of Science amounted altogether to£6,424, and they might expect something to come from that expenditure; but, on looking at the recent Report of the Science and Art Department, he found that, although the salaries and wages came to over£4,600, the results might be judged from these examples, that last year, in the first class, there were 58 lectures, which really ought to be called lessons, in Mathematics, delivered to six students, and, in the second year's class, 155 lessons in Chemistry were delivered to seven students, and, in the third year's class, 86 lectures in two subjects to three students.
THE CHAIRMANThis Vote does not refer to the lectures of Professors of the Royal College of Science.
§ MR. FOLEYI was drawing attention to the results obtained from the institution endowed by this Vote.
§ MR. FOLEYsaid, he would speak with regard to proposed expenditure on the building, which was altogether unsuitable for such a small number of students. The cost was great, and they would find in some eases when gentlemen obtained prizes they were given to the only persons who presented themselves to compete for such prizes. He considered it absurd to give a first prize to a person who was the only one who put in an appearance to contend for it. To maintain this public building with a paid Professor for only two students in Mineralogy and one in Mining was a simple waste of money. It was stated on the authority of a most distinguished scientific gentleman "that it was worse 403 than useless to keep up a great institution of this kind if there was nothing for it to do." The institution was one that deserved to be most carefully and particularly inquired into; and he trusted that the Government would give him a promise to look into the matter. If they would do so, he would withdraw his opposition to the Vote.
§ MR. SEXTONsaid, the hon. Gentleman the Member for New Ross (Mr. Foley) had raised a question which excited a considerable amount of interest in Ireland; and he, therefore, trusted the Government would find it convenient to make some reply. For his own part, he did not wish to oppose the Vote, although he wanted to say something with regard to the College of Science and Art. They had not been able to elicit satisfactory information as to the art progress. Then, with regard to teacher's residences in Ireland, two years ago a sum of£2,500 was granted; but it was not all spent. He found that this year£2,500 was asked for, and he thought it desirable that the Government should inform them whether it was probable that a large proportion of this sum would be spent, or whether they were only likely to spend an equal amount to that which they spent last year. Then, with regard to£5,000, for the Science and Art Department, he should like to have information respecting that item. There was another item he should like to have explained—that having reference to the harbour at Ardglass. A sum of money had been voted for the last year which had not been spent; and he protested against money being voted that was not required, because it gave the authorities to whom it was handed over an unconstitutional power to withdraw from the House the supervision of the expenditure of the public funds.
§ MR. MUNDELLAsaid, the hon. Member for New Ross made an inquiry as to the working of the Royal College of Science in Dublin. Well, all these Votes bearing on Science and Art were taken on the same night as the Education Vote. However, he was anxious to afford the hon. Gentleman all the information in his power. He had said on a previous occasion, in reply to questions put to him by hon. Members from Ireland, that when the present Government came into Office they found a great deal of Correspondence going on with 404 reference to this College, and also with regard to the Royal Dublin College, and the Science and Art Department, altogether; and the course which they decided to take was this—that immediately after Parliament had adjourned, his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council (Earl Spencer) should visit Ireland himself, and institute a searching inquiry into the whole working of these matters. Next year he hoped to be able to render an account of what the noble Lord had seen and had done. The Committee might rest satisfied that the Government would not be content to ask for Votes without having adequate results. As far as they were concerned, they were anxious that Ireland should benefit as much from Science and Art institutions as any other part of the United Kingdom; but the relations between the Royal College and the Educational Department were very strained. There was a Correspondence going on with relation to it, and the Government were doing the best they could to bring the matter to an amicable settlement, and to put the institution into working order, and establish harmony between the various departments. He hoped before the end of the Session to be able to do this.
§ MR. FOLEYthought he could accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman; but he did not think the Royal College of Science had any part in the Correspondence which the right hon. Gentleman referred to. The observations he had formerly made to Members of the Government related to utterly different transactions—namely, to a correspondence going on between the Royal Dublin Society and the Science and Art Department in London. If he was successful in drawing the attention of Members of the Government to this institution—namely, the Royal College of Science for Ireland, his objections to which stood on totally different grounds, his object would be gained.
§ MR. MUNDELLAsaid, it appeared this was a new thing. The College of Art and Science had been dismissing its Professors, and there had been a public trial and a great deal of unpleasantness on the matter. These things had to be put straight, and the Government would do the best they could to rectify them.
MR. O'CONNOR POWERthought it necessary to make just one observation on the subject, because what had taken place would lead some hon. Members to suppose that the Irish people were indifferent to technical education, or to the course of education that these institutions were established to give in Ireland. He was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the Committee that it was the intention of the Lord President of the Council to visit Dublin for the purpose of investigating all these institutions. He thought the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) had promised some time ago that he would himself pay a visit to Dublin; and, no doubt, if he fulfilled that intention, he would find that there was considerable room for improvement in the management of the different institutions referred to by the hon. Member for New Ross (Mr. Foley), and institutions of a similar character in Dublin. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had commented on the fact that there were only a few students in the College of Science in Dublin; and he (Mr. O'Connor Power) confessed that he was decidedly of opinion that, until the whole system of Science and Art education in Ireland under this institution had been radically altered, the benefits which it was calculated to confer would never reach the masses of the population of the Island. Instead of having a very expensive central institution in Dublin, he should like to see some efforts made that would bring education of this kind more directly home to the masses of the people. Really, what was wanted in Ireland was an education which would teach the people to make their homes more comfortable and their farms more productive. The money voted by Parliament for the maintenance of Science and Art classes in Dublin had found its way into the pockets of well-to-do students of the middle class, who had merely utilized these classes for a limited period in order to qualify themselves for high positions in England or in the Colonies.
THE CHAIRMANI must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that if we get into a discussion upon these subjects it will be impossible to consider the Estimates in their proper order. This is simply a Vote for the erection, repairs, and maintenance of public buildings.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he would answer the question of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton). As he had said before, there was a great difficulty in putting down the exact amount which would be required for buildings, to be constructed in the course of the year. Then there were large local contributions for some portions of the work; and it was impossible to foresee how much these local contributions would amount to. It was never desirable to spend, in the course of the year, the sum voted, as, if they did that, it would lead to an increased. Vote at the end of the year. That applied to the harbour referred to. It was decided, some time ago, £1,500 should be granted for the harbour at Ardglass. Well, that amount was spent as rapidly as they could; but there were a thousand circumstances which tended to delay the works. As to the Vote for the Census, the items had been occasioned by the largely increased staff which it had been necessary to employ.
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, that, after the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella), he thought the people of Ireland would be quite satisfied. They had selected as a special Envoy, to go over, and to look into these institutions in Dublin, one who, for some years, had filled the post of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and who, therefore, must have some knowledge of the circumstances of the buildings. He did not think they could have anything more satisfactory to those who really wished well to the institutions. Of course, he need not say that, while on the Vote for Buildings for Science and Art, to be called on to discuss comfortable homes and profitable farms was quite irregular, and was beyond the scope of the inquiry. He certainly did think that Irish Members should be perfectly satisfied with the assurance given them—that he who was for so many years Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was going over to see for himself how he could improve these institutions.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORthought the statement of the noble Lord was incorrect. He did not know that anyone wished to discuss the question of comfortable homes, or profitable farms, or that the Irish Members wished to continue the discussion as to Science and 407 Art institutions in Ireland. The noble I Lord might, therefore, have spared himself the allusions. He wished to point out that they had not been informed whether any official from headquarters in London proposed to go and inquire as to the efforts which had been made in connection with the progress of other buildings—for instance, the Museum of Science and Art. As to the harbour at Ardglass, he had no doubt the Financial Secretary to the Treasury really did believe that all reasonable efforts had been made to get on with the work. He (Mr. O'Connor), however, was none the less convinced that it had been disgracefully neglected for a great number of years. Year after year they had voted money in Committee for these works, and year after year they had seen the money returned into the Treasury. It had been said for years they did not proceed with the harbour because they could not get labour. Well, it was perfectly well known that last year there were hundreds of men about the works who could not get employment. The herring fishery was hopelessly bad—so bad as to be un-remunerative. Ardglass was one of those places in Ireland which were standing memorials of the evil effects of British interference. It was the English Crown that ruined Ardglass. Years ago it was a thriving and prosperous port—so much so that in the Reign of Henry IV. the London Companies established factories there; and a considerable amount of commercial enterprise was developed in connection with London houses. In the Reign of Edward VI. it was the most important of all parts of Ireland. But the Crown interfered, and gave all the advantages Ardglass had enjoyed to Newry, and other places; and Ardglass became the small place it was now. He would urge on the Government to do their best for this port, for, before all, those who most benefited by it were the Manx men and the Cornishmen. The principal trade there was in connection with the herring fishery. During the present week, if they sent over to inquire how things were there, they would find hundreds of fishing boats at the place— one-third from the Isle of Man, one-third from Cornwall, and the rest belonging to Ireland. So that it was as much to the interest of England as of Ireland to support the place. If the Government would only send over, from the Treasury 408 in London, someone to look after the harbour of this place, besides sending over officials to examine into such things as Museums of Science and Art, and kindred institutions, they would have great reason to thank the Treasury for their intervention in the matter.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the Report of the Commissioners of the Board of Works had been referred to. Well, he had that Report in his hand; and it was evident from that that, so far from neglecting the place, it was evident that they had looked after the works very carefully. They declared that the men had worked by day and night, and had taken advantage of the low tides, but that their labour had been necessarily very slow by reason of the heavy seas they had had to encounter.
§ An hon. MEMBER wished to know whether the College of Science and Art had been put under the authority of the Kensington Museum?
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member was not in the House when it was pointed out that, this Vote being for buildings, the general policy of the Government as to the Colleges cannot be discussed.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, that with reference to the residences of the Government officials in Dublin and London, he found that the Under Secretary's Lodge was charged for to the extent of£761. Now, the Under Secretary, he believed, received a salary of£2,000 a-year, and he was not a temporary but a permanent official. In addition to this£2,000 a-year he had in the park a house and a demesne where he gave himself a great many graces and entertained a large number of military colonels. He had no objection to getting a large amount of plunder from the enemy. He did not see why they should not take for Irish objects as much as they could get; but he had an objection to plundering the Consolidated Fund for a mere English official resident in Ireland, receiving a salary of£2,000 a-year, in order to give him a house and estate and offices. They gave him a free house and gas— he did not know whether he had an allowance for coal—but, at any rate, he had a house, rent free, and a private demesne in which he could rear a large number of cattle. He could never pass by the Under Secretary's grounds without admiring his good taste, for he 409 always seemed to have a great many good fat cattle. Why, however, should this official be allowed£761 for the maintenance of his house? He appealed to the economic tendencies of his Radical Friends on the other side of the House to join him in objecting to this plunder of the English taxpayer. If he (Mr. Callan) got a free house to-morrow he should be most happy to live in it and keep it in perfect order at his own expense. He did not see why the Under Secretary should not be prepared to do the same. He should like to have an explanation of this Vote. Mr. Lingen, of the Treasury, who was certainly not one of the best paid officials, had no free house.
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, that before the noble Lord answered the question, would it not be as well—seeing that the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) had based his attack on the fact that the present Under Secretary was an Englishman—to inquire, first of all, whether the present holder of the office was an Englishman or an Irishman. If he (Lord Henry Lennox) was not mistaken, he was an Irishman, belonging to an old Irish family. Before the noble Lord answered the speech of the hon. Member, he should like him to state of what nationality the Under Secretary was. He must say that some of the Irish Members, many of whom were very great Friends of his, appeared to him to be a little unreasonable to-night. First, they complained that the money that was voted for Ireland was not spent, then there was a complaint that there was too large a sum spent on the Ceresus Order, and now they had another hon. Member get up and complain and ask why a certain sum that was spent in Ireland was given, the recipient being an Englishman.
§ MR. A. M. SULLIVANcordially recognized the sympathy with Irish Members of the noble Lord who had last spoken; but he hardly thought they ought to enter into an ethnological disquisition that evening. He wished to point out that there was an amount here in the Estimates for Post Office buildings in Dublin. The noble Lord would, perhaps, consider that a small matter; but he would draw his attention to the condition of the pavement beneath the portico of the General Post Office in Dublin. The Solicitor General for Ire- 410 land would bear him out when he said that 10 years ago the Corporation asked the Government to put down new flagging —at any rate, to keep the place in such a condition as they would be bound to keep it in were they private owners, and were the Post Office private property. For years this pavement had not been put in order, and the result was that it was in a wretched state, as anyone who had to go there to post a letter would see.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, it was the invariable rule, wherever there was an official residence, that it was maintained. It was only right that such should be the case, because, if the maintenance of the building depended upon the occupier, it might be well taken care of by one person and neglected by another. An in-coming tenant might find it in a condition of terrible dilapidation. With regard to the flagging round the Post Office, he would promise that it should be attended to.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, that the Under Secretary had a salary of£2,000 a-year. Well, the commercial system was that, whatever a person's income might be, the expense of maintaining his residence did not exceed one-fifth of it. One-fifth of£2,000 would be£400—any commercial man earning£2,000 a-year would not spend more than£400 on his house. Yet the permanent Secretary, who had a free house, was allowed over£700 a-year for its maintenance.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHThe amount is not exceptional.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, that last year the amount allowed was£713; but this year it was£761. They had no right to vote this money, except under the provisions of an Act of Parliament. Why were they obliged to pay so much for the gas and water in the lodge?£95 for such items, in the case of a man receiving a salary of£2,000, was too much. From£20 to£30 would be quite enough, unless the official burned the midnight oil very considerably. He should be very sorry if his gas bill came to more than£20 during the winter season. He saw there was a certain item of£17 for gas. He should be much surprised if the late occupant of the Under Secretary's Lodge mulcted the public funds in a charge for gas of that amount. Why, then, should the present occupant? He could not find 411 what the amount was last year; but it was£17 this year. In the name of common sense, if the Under Secretary got a free house and grounds, and a salary of£2,000 a-year, why should they have to pay for his gas? If they paid this official a handsome salary, why should they pay close on£100 a-year for the gas burned in his establishment? If economical principles were to operate at all, the Liberal Government ought to assist in the rejection of this Vote; and he would now move that the Vote he reduced by the sum of£95, being the amount charged for gas consumed in the Under Secretary's Lodge in Dublin.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLsaid, he could not quite understand how this large charge for gas appeared in the Estimates, for he had a distinct recollection, during the last three years he resided in the Lodge, of paying for all the gas consumed.
§ MR. FOLEYsaid, that the largeness of the item might be accounted for by the fact that gas was used in the hothouses in the Lodge grounds.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, that before the Question was put, he might be permitted to say that he thought sufficient attention had not been paid to the criticisms of the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan), which were to the effect that all the charges in this Vote were very extravagant. He did not agree with the hon. Gentleman when he said he did not care how much the Public Exchequer was plundered. Plundering, in any shape, had a most demoralizing effect upon the people of Ireland, as upon any other people, and he had never advocated a system of plundering. He had always opposed it, for he thought it was a most undesirable thing that large sums of money should be voted for uncalled-for purposes in Dublin. The Vote this year for Dublin Castle amounted to£4,349. Dublin Castle was an extensive building; but he could not imagine how such a large sum as this was expended. It seemed to him an unreasonably large sum, and that this was just one of those cases in which money was voted for one purpose and spent for another.£3,588 was asked for in respect of the Lodge. The Lodge was a very small building; and he could not understand how this 412 sum had been spent upon it. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forster) knew the Viceregal Lodge, and would be able to tell them whether such a sum was exorbitant.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, he did not make any charge of misappropriation of public money; and he had said, and still maintained, that the items contained in the Vote were extravagant. The Under Secretary for Ireland received£2,000 a-year. He was an Irishman—a Galway man, and he never knew any men more fond of plunder than Galway men. He had had papers put into his hands in the last few moments having reference to a meeting held in Sheffield during the election there in December last. The meeting was one of Irish electors, and was addressed by Mr. A. M. Sullivan, M.P., Mr. Justin M'Carthy, M.P., and Mr. Finigan, M.P. But there was a much more eloquent speech made by an English Member, and a Member for the present Government, than that made by any of the three hon. Gentlemen he had mentioned. The eloquent speech was that of the senior Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella), who addressed the constituents in favour of Mr. Waddy.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, he was referring to public buildings. He was referring to the opinions of Members of the House in respect to public buildings; and he would ask at the hands of the Chairman only one-tenth of the laxity he allowed to hon. Members last evening. ["Oh!"] Yes, he would ask just one-tenth of the laxity; for last night they really ought to have had a debate—["Order!"]— upon the Irish Constabulary Vote, and the debate really turned out to be one upon the Irish Land Question. He thought he had a right to refer to the opinions of the right hon. Member for Sheffield. [Mr. WARTON: No, no !] He had that right. He promised the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton) that he would not refer to his opinions on the subject. Now, what did the right hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) say with respect to this Vote, which appertained to the maintenance of State and official residences of the Vice-Royalty sham in Dublin? What did the right hon. Gentleman say? He said he was bound to do all he could, as an honest 413 man, to wipe out the memory of these crimes, and to obliterate all the traces of English misrule in Ireland. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to aid them in getting rid of some of the barnacles which attached to Ireland. It was extravagant to pay£700 a-year for the maintenance of the Viceregal Lodge; and, therefore, he asked for the support of the right hon. Member for Sheffield when he rose to reduce the Vote, as he intended to do in a few moments.
§ MR. BIGGARappealed to the Chief Secretary for Ireland to give them some explanation with regard to the Viceregal Lodge—some explanation which would really give the Committee an excuse for voting this sum of money. He did not move to reduce the Vote because he did not wish to give the Committee the trouble of dividing on the question. The right hon. Gentleman was supposed to know something about the Viceregal Lodge, and he could, no doubt, tell them how this large sum was spent. He did not object to official residences in Dublin, but he did object to considerable sums being voted without explanation.
§ MR. A. M. SULLIVANsaid, there really could be no explanation of a Vote like this. If they had a Home Rule in Dublin they would keep up these officials.
§ LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLsaid, that he might be able to afford the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) a little information. The Viceregal residence was surrounded by very extensive grounds, in which there were a great many roads. These grounds and roads required a large sum to keep up. The ordinary outgoings connected with the lodge were those in respect of the extensive grounds—too extensive grounds, in his opinion. He did not think there was any extravagance in keeping up the residences themselves.
§ MR. BIGGARsaid, that it was no part of his duty, in a matter of this kind, to point out in what branch of the expenditure extravagance had occurred. All he asked was that some explanation should be afforded by the Government. So far, the Government had not been able to give the slightest information on the point. The noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) had had some experience of the Viceregal Lodge, and he had given some explanation which was entitled to very 414 considerable attention; but, at the same time, the Government should at least have made some effort to explain the matter, for the Committee had a right to expect explanation at their hands. It was no argument to say that the system had been going on for many years; the system might be bad although it had been in force for years.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was unable to give the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) perfect explanation in this matter. What he knew of the matter was known to everybody, and that was that the Lord Lieutenant was very largely out of pocket every year. With regard to his (Mr. W. E. Forster's) own residence, all he knew was that he had got a large garden for which he got some grant from the Government, but nothing like what was required to keep it up. As regarded the Under Secretary, there, again, all he knew was that of all the officials he ever came across, the Under Secretary was decidedly the most hard worked, and he supposed that the keeping up of his house was part of the bargain under which he served. He appealed to the Committee whether they had not all the information they could reasonably expect?
§ MR. BYRNEsaid, he had no intention to move a reduction of the Vote. He only wished to say that the Vote contained no charge for insurance.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, that it was only in exceptional cases where public buildings were insured, and Ireland had not been expected to insure the public buildings.
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that the other day he asked the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) if he would furnish information with regard to the number of men engaged as gatekeepers and park constables; and if he would also specify the names and religious persuasions of the particular individuals? The noble Lord said he had not time to get information before this Vote came on; but some time had elapsed since he gave that answer, and it was possible that he had now some information to give. The noble Lord, however, concluded his answer by saying that the appointments to these offices were not at all influenced by the religious persuasions of the candidates. His information was entirely opposite to that. He was assured by correspondents, who ap- 415 peared to know something about the matter, that the appointments were invariably filled up by Freemasons. He would not ask the question if he did not think he had some justification. His information was that no Catholic had been appointed to one of these offices during the last six years. He himself believed it was even a longer period. He did not want to move any reduction of the Vote. The hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) had pressed them not to move reduction connected with any question involving reference to the Constabulary, either directly or indirectly. In deference to the wish of the hon. Gentleman, he would refrain from moving to reduce the Vote. Had it not been for the expressed wish of the hon. Member, he should have moved that the Vote be reduced, because he felt that this was another instance where the fact of a man being a Roman Catholic was quite sufficient to exclude him from any advancement. He would content himself by asking the noble Lord to give an undertaking that the favouritism of which he complained should not operate in future.
§ LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he would inquire into the question raised, but would now say that he could not conceive that the gatekeepers and park constables in Dublin were appointed on account of the religious belief they might hold.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§
Motion made, and Question,
That a sum, not exceeding£91,987, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1881, for the Erection, Repairs, and Maintenance of the several Public Buildings under the Department of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland,"— (Mr. Foley,)
—put, and negatived.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ (2.)£19,885, Supplementary sum, Public Buildings, Ireland.