HC Deb 24 March 1879 vol 244 cc1593-600

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £4,109,067, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, viz.:—

CIVIL SERVICES.
CLASS I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Great Britain:—
£
Royal Palaces 6,000
Marlborough House 500
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens 19,300
Houses of Parliament 6,000
Public Buildings 20,000
Furniture of Public Offices 2,600
Revenue Department Buildings 31,200
County Court Building's 8,000
Metropolitan Police Courts 4,000
Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland 1,400
New Courts of Justice, &c. 21,000
Surveys of the United Kingdom 22,400
Science and Art Department Buildings 3,400
British Museum Buildings 800
Natural History Museum 8,000
Edinburgh University Buildings 3,200
Harbours, &c. under Board of Trade 3,000
Rates on Government Property (Great Britain and Ireland) 44,500
Metropolitan Fire Brigade 2,500

Ireland:— £
Public Buildings 24,000
Abroad:—
Lighthouses Abroad 2,000
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings 4,000
CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.
England:— £
House of Lords, Offices 7,000
House of Commons, Offices 8,600
Treasury, including Parliamentary Counsel 10,000
Home Office and Subordinate Departments 15,200
Foreign Office 12,600
Colonial Office 6,600
Privy Council Office and Subordinate Departments 5,300
Privy Seal Office 500
Board of Trade and Subordinate Departments 28,000
Charity Commission (including Endowed Schools Department) 5,000
Civil Service Commission 4,600
Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission 3,000
Inclosure and Drainage Acts Expenses 1,400
Exchequer and Audit Department 9,400
Friendly Societies, Registry 1,200
Local Government Board 64,000
Lunacy Commission 2,700
Mint 10,600
National Debt Office 2,800
Patent Office 4,700
Paymaster General's Office 4,300
Public Works Loan Commission 1,800
Record Office 3,500
Registrar General's Office 8,000
Stationery Office and Printing 76,000
Woods, Forests, &c, Office of 4,000
Works and Public Buildings, Office of 7,000
Secret Service 3,900
Scotland:—
Exchequer and other Offices 1,200
Fishery Board 2,200
Lunacy Commission 1,000
Registrar General's Office 1,200
Board of Supervision 3,200
Ireland:—
Lord Lieutenant's Household 1,300
Chief Secretary's Office, &c. 5,200
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office 400
Local Government Board 21,300
Public Works Office 5,100
Record Office 1,000
Registrar General's Office 2,600
Valuation and Boundary Survey 3,800
CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
England:— £
Law Charges 12,000
Criminal Prosecutions 33,300
Chancery Division, High Court of Justice 30,000
£
Queen's Bench, &c. Divisions, High Court of Justice 10,600
Probate, &c. Registries, High Court of Justice 15,000
Admiralty Registry, High Court of Justice 2,000
Wreck Commission 2,000
Bankruptcy Court (London) 6,300
County Courts 73,400
Land Registry 900
Revising Barristers, England
Police Courts (London and Sheerness) 2,400
Metropolitan Police 100,000
County and Borough Police, Great Britain (for Inspection only) 800
Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies 72,000
Prisons, England 133,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain 65,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum 4,700
Scotland:—
Lord Advocate and Criminal Proceedings 11,300
Courts of Law and Justice 10,300
Register House Departments 6,100
Prisons, Scotland 14,000
Ireland:—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions 14,000
Chancery Division, High Court of Justice 6,700
Queen's Bench, &c. Divisions, ditto 4,700
Land Judges' Offices, ditto 2,000
Probate, &c. Registries, ditto 2,000
Court of Bankruptcy 1,800
Admiralty Court Registry 350
Registry of Deeds 3,400
Registry of Judgments 600
County Court Officers, &c. 12,600
Dublin Metropolitan Police (including Police Courts) 23,000
Constabulary 183,000
Prisons, Ireland 24,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools 21,000
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum 1,200
CLASS V.—COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.
£
Diplomatic Services 35,000
Consular Services 40,000
Colonies, Grants in Aid 8,000
Orange River Territory and St. Helena 500
Suez Canal (British Directors) 350
Suppression of the Slave Trade 1,200
Tonnage Bounties, &c. 2,300
Cyprus, Military Pioneer Force
CLASS VI.—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES, AND GRATUITIES FOR CHARITABLE AND OTHER PURPOSES.
£
Superannuation and Retired Allowances 75,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c. 5,000
Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad 5,300
Pauper Lunatics, England
Pauper Lunatics, Scotland
Pauper Lunatics, Ireland 40,000
Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland 3,000
Savings Banks and Friendly Societies Deficiency
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain 800
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland 800
CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL, AND TEMPORARY OBJECTS.
£
Temporary Commissions 4,600
Miscellaneous Expenses 1,200
Total for Civil Services £2,754,400
REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
£
Customs 161,000
Inland Revenue 316,000
Post Office 562,000
Post Office Packet Service 128,000
Post Office Telegraphs 187,667
Total for Revenue Departments £1,354,667
Grand Total £4,109,067"
MR. SHAW

said, he wished to refer to one expression which had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the Queen's College and the Queen's University Votes were the only ones which Irish Members wished to discuss. His opinion, on the contrary, was that their particular business in Parliament was to look after the raising and the expenditure of money, and that the passing of Bills was a very secondary consideration. For his part, he did not think the House would suffer very much if it did not pass any Bills for the rest of the Session. There were a great many questions which he and his Friends intended to discuss very fully, and for that reason he was glad that the new Rule had been adopted, for it gave them fuller opportunities than before of entering upon these discussions. Amongst other Grants that he wished to see discussed was that for the London University and for the Scotch Universities. It struck him as most extraordinary, seeing that Scotch Gentlemen should come there year after year, and showed most determined hostility to the reasonable demands of the Irish for University education, while, at the same time, they were asking the House to put its hands into the pockets of the ratepayers to pay for Divinity Professorships, and Ecclesiastical Professorships in their own University. He hoped these items would come on at a reasonable time for discussion, for he certainly had made up his mind to move the rejection altogether of the London University Vote and the Scotch University Vote. While the House was voting money for endowing Scholarships in London and Scotland, it refused to give the Irish people any share in the amounts they contributed towards the taxes. He was told, however, that the Government had agreed to the request of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn); and, for that reason, he should offer no opposition to the present Vote.

MR. ANDERSON

, with reference to the remark made about the Glasgow University, said, that he should be very happy to support a similar grant to Ireland under similar conditions. It must be remembered, also, that a very large sum was received locally, and that the Government only supplemented that sum by a smaller sum in aid of the local subscriptions.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

was delighted to hear the declaration of the hon. Member who had just sat down, and he would take care that the hon. Member was reminded of it in due time. His speech, had shown how necessary it was that Irish Members should take every opportunity of informing the House on the subject of Irish educa- tion; for, notwithstanding the number of debates which they had already had on this subject, and notwithstanding the fact that the hon. Member was generally very astute in mastering such subjects, he had yet altogether failed to apprehend one of the reasons which intensified the feeling of annoyance and injustice now rankling in the mind of every Irishman. That feeling was that they had paid out of their own pockets £260,000 for their own University, and they had asked in vain for a supplementary grant, to a reasonable extent, out of the Exchequer. Their position in Ireland was exactly the same as that of the Scotch Universities. The people of Ireland, it was true, did not profess to have a great affection for the Westminster Catechism, and preferred a different kind of religious faith. But that was no reason why the merest justice should be refused to the Irish people; and yet that was exactly what the House of Commons continued to do year after year. It was this which had forced them to subject all Departments of Public Business to the strictest criticism, in order to induce the House to consider this matter of education, though they would much rather have preferred to do this work in a different way, based on the justice of reasonable concessions.

MR. CALLAN

said, that so far from the Irish Universities being in exactly the same position as the Glasgow University, they were in a far worse condition. Instead of raising nearly £250,000, they raised during the last 15 years nearly £500,000, and they had been refused subsidies and grants in aid which had actually been granted to Glasgow. There were other matters, however, to be considered besides. Could this question be discussed at 1 o'clock in the morning? The proposal of the Government not being satisfactory, it would be far better to report Progress; and, for his part, he would certainly be inclined to propose a Motion to that effect.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he certainly had intended to answer the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Shaw); but other Members had intervened with observations, and, consequently, he had been prevented, because he did not wish to interrupt them in what they wished to say. He had been, also, rather misunderstood. In his previous remarks he did not say that the Queen's University and the Queen's College were the only Votes in which the Irish Member's were interested, for he knew they were interested in a very large number of Votes that were about to be submitted. What he did say was that he knew, by the experience of last Session, that a considerable number of Irish Members felt so strongly in regard to these particular Votes that they would not allow even a Vote on Account to pass without a full discussion on the whole subject, and without raising on such a Vote—which, of course, was not a final settlement, but only a grant by the Government in order to enable them to carry on their Business for a certain time—the whole question of the principle of these Colleges. He knew that there were other Votes which ought, of course, to be discussed; and he would do his very best to give fair opportunity for such discussion.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, he thought they might congratulate themselves on their very fortunate position, for now that the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) found that he had been mistaken as to the endowment of the Irish Universities, he was quite certain to act up to the promise he had made. There was such an immensity of ignorance on this important subject that he was not surprised these facts had escaped the attention of the hon. Member for Glasgow. Merely to endow a Catholic University would not be fair, and would not place it on the same level as others, for it had only received its Charter from the Pope. He would not enter into the subject now; but he would say that the Irish Party were determined to pursue this question of education into all its ramifications, and the manner in which they had been treated, and the manner in which the question of Christian education in this country was being treated, convinced them of the necessity of doing all in their power to oppose endowment of what was really a new form of religion existing under the name of secular education, and which was none the less a sect that it disputed all recognized dogmas of the existing religions. He must strongly protest against endowing, out of the pockets of Christians, new-fangled theories of immoral ethics supported by scientific speculators.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, he was glad to find that the House was not going to take the Vote for military pay in Cyprus. That was a very novel Vote, and the Government had exercised a very wise discretion in passing it by. It had already been explained that it was not put down to the Army Votes because it would not be legal to put it there. He did not quite understand, therefore, how it could be legally put down somewhere else. He would venture to suggest that that Vote should not be taken at a late hour, and that full notice should be given of the subject, in order that the House might fully discuss this very novel proposition.

MR. DILLWYN

said, it was quite understood that the Government were taking a lump sum for the Civil Service and Revenue Departments both?

SIR HENRY SELWLN-IBBETSON

replied, certainly.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow;

Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.