§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 14 (Abolition of certain officers and continuance of others).
§ MR. CHILDERS moved the addition of the words, after the word salaries, "as the Lord Chancellor with the concurrence of the Treasury may determine."
§ MR. MONKsaid, the Committee had had considerable discussion upon this point yesterday, and he believed the feeling was in favour of not giving an additional salary to the Senior Master who was to undertake the duty, and he could see no reason for the additional 991 salary; there would not be heavier duties to perform. It really was not the case that there would be only four Masters to perform the duties now performed by five. The truth was that the Courts of Queen's Bench, Exchequer, and Common Pleas, being amalgamated, the Masters of all would become Masters of the High Court of Justice; therefore, there would be 12 or 15 Masters, and under the section it would be within the power of the Lord Chancellor to recommend the appointment of an additional Master, should the duties become too heavy. He could not understand why the Senior Master, who, instead of performing his usual duties, was to perform the duties of Queen's Remembrancer, was to receive more than £1,500 a-year. To that he had a strong objection, and yesterday he quite understood it was not to be pressed. He felt compelled to take the sense of the Committee on this point.
§ MR. CHILDERSappealed to the hon. Member not to do that, for the effect must be to stop the whole proceeding in Committee this Session.
§ SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, if the hon. Member insisted upon contesting the point it must have the effect of stopping the Bill, which time only admitted of being taken with general assent. The clause which they had passed had reference to the salaries; and the proposal now was, whether or not additional salaries should be regulated by the Treasury? These were the words before the Committee; it was the regulating words, not additional salaries, they were now deciding.
§ MR. HOPWOODsaid, it was a mistake to say the clause, as regarded these salaries, had been passed by the Committee.
§ MR. MORGAN LLOYDsaid, if this Amendment was accepted a few words might be added which would remove all difficulty. If the words were passed as they were printed in red then the Committee might add a Proviso, that the amount fixed by the Lord Chancellor and the Treasury should not exceed the salary now payable to the Queen's Remembrancer. If the Amendment was passed he should move the addition of the Proviso, and hoped it might meet with general concurrence.
§ MR. ANDERSONsaid, the payment of salaries to the Queen's Remembrancer was the very point upon which the Com- 992 mittee broke down yesterday. He was opposed to this system of raising salaries. It would appear that lawyers, at a time when trade was bad and everyone, more orless, impoverished, thought they should continue to live in increasing prosperity and become richer as the rest of the community became poorer. It was agreed yesterday that it could not be shown that these duties were more responsible than those the same official discharged before, or that they took longer time, and as his whole time was already paid for there was no excuse for raising the salary. He certainly understood, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested the Amendment should be accepted, that it was not intended to press this increase of salary.
§ MR. MONKdid not wish to delay the progress of the Bill, and if it would be more convenient to take a Division on Report as to the omission of the words after the word "office" he would do so; but, certainly, he must take a Division upon the point. The Bill, as his hon. Friend had said, was one to reduce expenses; but the clause granted an increase of salary to the oldest Master.
§ MR. CHARLEYsaid, the person who held the office of Queen's Remembrancer received no salary at all under the Bill.
§ MR. B. WILLIAMSwas glad there was a probability of the Bill passing into law, and he intended to give the Attorney General all the support in his power. As to the clause in reference to the salary of Queen's Remembrancer, it was a well-established rule that when additional duties were imposed on any man in any official appointment then an increase of pay should be given. It was on this principle, for instance, that increased payment was given to County Court Judges, when their judicial duties were increased. He thought it was important that members of the Profession, who were invited to accept the position of Senior Master, should be well paid, as they ought to be men whose position and experience demanded it.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was afraid he must move to report Progress. He understood that, by general consent, the Bill was to pass through Committee; and he reminded hon. Members that Government were under an obligation to afford opportunity 993 for another discussion, and could not now consume the time. He must throw upon hon. Gentlemen opposite the responsibility of preventing the passage of a measure intended to produce a considerable saving in public expenditure.
§ MR. CHILDERSmade a last appeal to the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) not to persist in his objection. The Bill would, undoubtedly, effect a great saving, and it was the outcome of careful inquiry by Committee. In giving this power to the Treasury not one shilling would be added to salaries unless they were deserved.
§ MR. CHARLEYhoped that Progress would not be reported. It was absolutely necessary to pass the Bill. The Supreme Court of Judicature Act had amalgamated the Courts, and this Bill amalgamated the offices.
§ MR. MONKsaid, of course, he did not wish to stand out against the appeals made. He had made his protest, and the responsibility of the increase of salary must rest with others.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 15 to 23, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clauses 24 to 26, agreed to, with verbal Amendments.
§ Clause 27 (Saving as to fees).
§ MR. CHILDERSsaid, it was understood that next Session the Treasury would take up the question of fees, so that salaries might be substituted for them; but, for the present, it was thought advisable to leave the clause as it stood.
§ SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONundertook to deal with the matter, with the view of doing away with the system, to which he saw much objection—payment by fees as well as salary.
§ MR. MONKsaid, he did not care whether the clause was struck out or amended in the sense of the Notice he had put upon the Paper; but he thought it was most undesirable, when a fixed salary was paid, and in some cases an increasing salary—increasing in such manner as the Lord Chancellor might recommend, with the subsequent sanction of the Treasury—it was most undesirable that the payment of fees to these officers should be continued. By 994 all means, if the salaries ought to be increased, let it be done; but these fees ought to be paid into Her Majesty's Exchequer. He felt sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not have given his sanction to this clause, and that he would consent to the spirit of the Amendment, if not to the omission of the clause. He Moved, in page 8, line 16, to leave out "affect any liability to," and insert "be construed to permit."
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERthought it impossible to accept the Amendment in the present position of affairs; but the Government would promise to look into the matter between this and next Session, and make some arrangement by which the system of payment by fees should be done away with.
§ MR. HOPWOODsaid, unless the liability to pay foes was kept up, the persons who owed fees to the Exchequer would be released from their liability.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 28 and 29 agreed to.
§ New Clause after Clause 17 (Salaried Officers of the Supreme Court).
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir JOHN HOLKER) moved the addition to the clause of the words "shall be deemed to be permanent civil servants."
§ MR. MORGAN LLOYDthought it was understood that the clause was to be left out. His objection to the clause was that it gave power to the Lord Chancellor to fix the amount of the salaries—a power which the House ought to retain in its own hands. He thought he must move the omission of the clause.
§ MR. CHILDERSexplained, that every salary in the Public Service was first settled by the Treasury, and then the amount came before the House to be voted.
§ MR. MORGAN LLOYDdid not wish to hinder the progress of the Bill; but he did think that the fixing of a maximum was necessary against the extraordinary power assumed by the Treasury.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause added to the Bill.
995§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir JOHN HOLKER) moved the addition of a new clause, giving to the buildings erected under the Courts of Justice Building Act the name of "The Royal Courts of Justice."
§ Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.