§ Order for Committee read.
§ MR. J. LOWTHER,in moving that the House do go into Committee on the Bill, explained that it was introduced in redemption of a promise made to the House, and was designed to improve the position of the Irish teachers. It was intended to pay pensions to teachers optionally at the ages of 55 for males, and 50 for females, and compulsorily at the ages of 65 for males, and 60 for females, and to provide these pensions compulsorily deductions might be made from their allowances. The deduction would, however, be small compared with the pensions. He had already announced the intention of the Government to introduce a Supplementary Estimate next Session, providing for an addition to the salaries of teachers, so that they would be increased in the cases of the first class by 20 per cent, in the second by 15, and the third by 10. This would enable them to meet the contributions they 886 would have to make under this Bill to the pension fund. He would not detain the House by any further remarks, but would be prepared to give any other explanations that might be required.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. James Lowther.)
§ MR. COURTNEY moved that the House should, upon that day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee. He complained that they had had that evening, in the brief speech of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, an important announcement that the Government were going to do something which was not contained in the Bill itself. It was not only proposed to take a sum of nearly £1,300,000 from the Irish Church Surplus; but, next year, they were to have charges on the Consolidated Fund, in order to enable the teachers to make their payments to the pension fund. He suggested that it would be better at once to contribute what it was proposed to give to the fund, instead of giving it to the school teachers to be finally passed on to the fund. Hon. Gentlemen around him appeared ready to act on the principle of shutting their eyes and opening their mouths, and taking what Providence might send them; but if such a proposal as that of the Government was seriously entertained for a moment, anyone would have thought that in the statement made by the Irish Secretary there would have been an estimate of what it would cost, and how it would work, what were the estimated receipts, and what the estimated expenditure. Nothing of that kind had been told them; and there was, also, a provision in the Bill to which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had not alluded—and that was, that if the fund contributed was not sufficient in itself, or with the amount contributed by the teachers, then the Commissioners of National Debt were to make a further payment to supply the deficiency. Contrast this with England and Scotland. In Ireland, the State paid nearly the whole of the teachers' salaries; but in England and Scotland the State contributed little or nothing. He was not there to dispute that the condition of the Irish National School teachers was unsatisfactory, or that many good things might be attained 887 by improving their condition. The school teachers of Ireland had a considerable influence on public opinion in Ireland, and no one would doubt that that influence had been exerted in a manner not entirely desirable recently. But he did submit that the improvement of the Irish school teachers ought to be made at the expense of the Irish people, and out of their own resources, and not out of a fund which might be left for better and worthier purposes. Why should not the Irish people make some contribution out of the rates to improve the condition of the school teachers, as was done in England and Scotland? That they ought to do so was not his opinion merely, it was the opinion of Her Majesty's Government; because the late Chief Secretary (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) introduced a Bill to enable local authorities, Boards of Guardians, &c., to contribute out of the rates. The right hon. Gentleman was urged to make the Bill compulsory, on the ground that, if optional, it would be futile, and that concurrent action on the part of the Boards of Guardians would not be obtained. But the right hon. Gentleman did not consent, and the Act had proved a dead letter. In England and Scotland, the school teachers had no pensions; but they were provided with adequate remuneration, so as to enable them, out of their own means, to make provision for themselves by establishing an insurance fund. That was the true policy with regard to Ireland also. What did the Government now propose to do? They proposed to make the large contribution of £1,300,000, which was to be the nucleus of an annual endowment of that pension fund. He contended that was meddling with a great resource which might be used for much better purposes. What had been the policy with regard to educational endowments in England? Not to provide gratuitous education for the children out of them; but, by the foundation of prizes and exhibitions, to promote the education of youth from the primary to the second class, and even in some cases beyond that, leaving the ordinary daily cost of education to be defrayed out of the rates. By the same means, the Irish fund might be made a useful assistance to education, but not by making it the means of meeting a cost which should be borne by the Irish people.
888 On both sides, parties had shrunk from imposing any burdens upon the Irish people in respect to education. Instead of that, they had suggested the wasting of this treasure which might be made so useful. He repudiated altogether the suggestion that, in taking part against the Bill, he was devoid of sympathy with the Irish teachers and the Irish poor. He wished, as much as anyone, to improve their condition, both by pecuniary advantages and giving them more independence. He would emancipate them from the influence to which they had too long been subjected. He regretted that the offer made to them some time ago by the Government to enable them to obtain some security of tenure in the offices they held was rejected; and he would now, as far as possible, improve the position of Irish teachers, both in means of subsistence and independence of position; but he opposed this Bill because its effect must be mischievous to Irish educational interests, and because it proposed a misappropriation of part of the great Irish fund. He moved that the House resolve itself into Committee that day three months.
§ Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee,"—(Mr. Courtney,)—instead thereof.
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
§ MR. MELDONhad hoped that it would not be necessary for him to intrude upon the House by any observations of his own; but after the remarks which had been made he must say a few words. If the speech which they had just heard had been delivered in 1874 it would have deserved grave consideration; but it came too late now, for the position of the National School teachers in Ireland had considerably altered since that time. In 1874 the case of the teachers was brought before the House, their complaint being that they were inefficiently paid, that they had no residences, and, that they wanted pensions. On that occasion the case had much assistance from the Liberal side of the House, and not a single voice was raised 889 against either of these grievances, and the Government admitted their claims; and one would have thought the question was finally settled, and that the pledges of the Government would have shortly been fulfilled, and, certainly, that they would not have been opposed from that side of the House; but circumstances arose to delay the promises of the Government being redeemed, and, in the following year—1875—an attempt was made to deal with two of these admitted grievances in connection with salaries and residences. An Act was passed dealing with the subject of residences, and that Act it was proposed now, in some slight degree, to amend, and, at the same time, the Government proposed that the local rates should be made to contribute to the payment of salaries. That Act had continued up to the present time, though with partial success only; but, however, it was not to be interfered with now. The question of pensions then had been fully considered by the Government; and, in point of fact, a scheme had been prepared similar to the present one. The principle of pensions had been decided, though the fund had not. On many occasions the subject had been brought up in the House, once, and sometimes twice, in each Session; and at last he had obtained, by an unanimous opinion of the House, a Resolution in favour of this subject of pensions for teachers in Ireland receiving the immediate attention of Parliament. Well, that being so, he thought he was right in saying it was too late now to come forward and discuss the matter on the point of principle. That principle had been established in 1874, and confirmed every Session; and it only remained to give effect to it. One word as to the question of pensions. Among the greatest evils of National Education in Ireland was the want of pensions. The teacher entered the service, and spent the best part of his life in it; but because the salary was insufficient to procure for him a pension he remained in the service after he was incapacitated, the managers not being hard-hearted enough to drive him into the workhouse. It had always been conceded that some remedy ought to be put to this state of affairs; and, in the interest of education, it was about the best step that had been taken to make some provision with reference to the claims put forward by 890 the teachers; but then they were told that the application of the Church Surplus was a waste of treasure in this case. What was it? In the first place, it was an application of the Surplus to the great subject of Education; then, it was a special Parliamentary application of the Fund to the very poorest; and he always understood that this was about the best application of the Church Surplus that could be made—namely, to relieve the poor and promote education. In the Bill inducements were held out to the poor to be self-reliant. Unless they were so, the Government would not give them assistance. If ever there was a scheme which it was desirable to pass this was one. As to the time when pensions became available, the teachers thought the age required was a little too great. If the teachers continued in harness until 65, certainly they deserved this pension; but he himself regretted that the Government had not seen their way to give pensions at the age of 55, or that they had not taken into account the length of service. He was most assuredly of opinion that this Bill ought to pass, and was gratified to the Government for the way in which they had dealt with that question. He hoped his hon. Friend would see his way to allow the Bill to progress, because it was a measure as to which the Irish Members were entirely unanimous.
§ MR. CHARLEYsaid, that the Government had descended in showers of gold on Irish Roman Catholic Gentlemen opposite. The Intermediate Education Act of last Session had provided Irish Roman Catholic scholars with prizes, and Irish Roman Catholic seminaries with result fees. The Irish University Bill would provide Irish Roman Catholic students with University emoluments. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had promised an increase of pay to the extent, he believed, of £40,000 to Irish Roman Catholic primary school teachers, and this Bill would provide them with pensions. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government, while redressing the grievances of Irish Roman Catholics, would not forget their Irish Protestant friends. He thought that the most microscopic examination of the Appropriation Clause of the Irish Church Act would fail to discover that it was the intention of the framers of that 891 clause that Irish National School teachers should be dealt with as provided in this Bill. It was true that in the Intermediate Education Act of last Session, which took £1,000,000 from the Irish Church Surplus to build up the fabric of a system of Intermediate Education in Ireland, there was a departure from the principle of the Appropriation Clause of the Irish Church Act; but, more recently, Parliament had decided that the infringement upon that principle should not be extended to Irish University Education. This Bill, however, was a departure, to a considerable extent, from that course of action by providing pensions out of the Irish Church Surplus for the teachers of primary schools. However, he would not have the House suppose that he intended to vote against going into Committee on this Bill, far from it. He had the highest respect for the Irish National School teachers, who had a claim for the favourable consideration of Parliament: but he wished to point out that whatever their claims might be the claims of the minor Irish incumbents on the Irish Church Surplus were much greater. By minor incumbents he meant incumbents with less than £200 a-year at the time of the passing of the Irish Church Act; and if the words of the Appropriation Clause of that Act were taken literally—if the Surplus was to be devoted to "the relief of unavoidable suffering and calamity," there was no class to whom the words of the clause were more applicable than to the minor incumbents. The numbers of the Irish minor incumbents at the time of the passing of the Irish Church Act were 450; but their numbers had been thinned by death and privation, and were now only 250. Parliament had, by a series of enactments, held out inducements to them to accept small livings on the distinct understanding that these livings would be increased in due course. A tax was levied by Parliament on all Irish benefices of more than £300 a-year, for the purpose of augmenting all Irish livings of less than £200 a-year to £200. That tax was still levied. All the incumbents with benefices of more than £300 a-year at the time of the passing of the Irish Church Act received from the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners a proportionately smaller annuity on account of this tax. The tax amounted to 892 £18,000 per annum at the time of the passing of the. Irish Church Act.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENrose to Order. He did not see the relevancy of the remarks of the hon. and learned Member.
§ MR. CHARLEYsaid, he was pointing out that whatever the claims of the National School teachers might be on the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church, those of the Irish minor incumbents were greater. These incumbents said that there was a sum of £314,000 which was ear-marked, so to speak, for their benefit. That sum was formerly in the hands of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and was transferred by the Irish Church Act to the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners. It was applicable in the hands of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commissioners to the augmentation of small livings. The minor incumbents contended that they had an equitable claim upon that sum. It might be said that there was no precedent for such an appropriation of the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church; but he could assure the House that there were several. The prospective interests of Divinity students of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland were taken into consideration, and compensation was given in respect of these interests under the Irish Church Act. He would not take up the time of the House at that late hour by going through all the precedents; he would content himself with citing one other—a remarkable precedent. The Roman Catholic owners of Irish advowsons were compensated under the Irish Church Act for their loss of patronage, although they could not have exercised it, unless they had conformed to the Irish Church. He contended that the granting of this compensation would not be any infringement of the Appropriation Clause of the Irish Church Act. The Conservative Party had endured five years of exile from power through their loyalty to the Irish Church. With Conservatives, at all events, it ought to be a point of honour not to leave these poor incumbents to starve. In the name of justice and humanity, he asked Her Majesty's Government to consider—and, he trusted, to consider favourably—their claims during the Recess.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, while thanking the Government for having in- 893 troduced this Bill, he could not help congratulating his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) for the manner in which he had fought this question, and for the success which had at last crowned his efforts. With regard to the observations of the last speaker, he would remark that the Bill did something more than assist the Irish teachers. It did something for the education of the Irish people. Their first duty was to provide primary education for the people. That could not be done without placing the teachers in that position which, thanks to the Government and his. hon. Friends, they would attain under the Bill. He could not understand the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney), who, like other men of intelligence in England and elsewhere, was possessed of doctrinal opinions. That hon. Member, and others who were like him, believed they were right in the development of their nostrums. All he could say was that if they were practically applied it would be found that they were altogether impracticable. The hon. Member for Liskeard had alluded to what the Chief Secretary for Ireland had stated that evening as to the intention of the Government in the coming Parliament, and had said that that was the reason why he had put down his opposition to the Bill. The hon. Member must, however, know that he put down his opposition a fortnight ago. He failed to understand why religion had been dragged into the discussion, as this was in no sense a religious question, the body of National School teachers in Ireland consisting of Protestants as well as Roman Catholics. Those teachers were treated no better than shepherds were in England and Scotland; and now that the Government had made a fair proposal in order to improve their position, he objected to hon. Members coming forward to oppose it on mere doctrinaire grounds. He sincerely trusted that the Bill would be passed.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEobjected to proceeding with this Bill on the 13th of August. The House was but a skeleton of itself, and its recent proceedings were calculated to wear out the patience and strength of the great body of its Members. This Bill was introduced on the 15th of July, printed the same morning, and read the second time late at night, 894 without discussion. The hon. Baronet who last spoke had entirely misrepresented the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Salford (Mr. Charley). The hon. Baronet was completely in error when he accused the hon. and learned Member of having reflected on the loyalty of Irish Roman Catholics. It was rather singular that there should be such touchiness on the subject of loyalty; and when one Member went out of his way to misrepresent what had fallen from another he deemed it necessary to protest.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENrose to Order, and inquired whether the hon. Member for North Warwickshire was entitled to attribute intentional misrepresentation to him?
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. Member for North Warwickshire must confine himself to the Question' before the House.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEhad imagined that the speech of the hon. Baronet was in Order, and that any Member of the House would be entitled to comment upon it. If it became a practice to introduce important Bills so late in the Session, it would either be necessary for hon. Members to remain up to the very date of the Prorogation, or legislation would be productive of discredit to the House. He felt strongly what had fallen from the hon. and learned Member for Salford. It was only on the previous day that a Bill was passed through that House stretching religious equality to the very utmost in favour of Roman Catholic education, and last year money was taken from the surplus of the Irish Church Fund for purposes which were essentially denominational; and now it was proposed that a further portion of the Fund should be appropriated for purposes not contemplated, if not forbidden, by the Irish Church Act, although there were claims, on the part of the denomination from whom Parliament originally took the Fund, still remaining unsatisfied. The latter omission was all the more painful, because a large part the Disestablished Church Fund had, under the original Act, been appropriated to wealthy members of the Protestant Church in Ireland, to the holders of advowsons, and others, who did not need assistance. The Fund had already been diverted from the purposes indicated in the Irish Church Act. 895 He held that before any more of this money was otherwise appropriated the claims of the poor incumbents of the Disestablished Church ought to be considered; and, on that ground, he should vote against the further progress of the Bill.
§ MR. SYNANdesired to rescue the debate from the irregularity into which it had fallen, and to impress upon the House the necessity of avoiding the topics which had been introduced by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. What had the Bill with respect to the claims of the minor clergy, the Order for which had been discharged, to do with the present measure? The Irish Members would be quite ready, at the proper time, to listen to whatever arguments might be adduced in support of those claims; but why they should now be brought forward, with the view of defeating the admitted claims of the National School teachers in Ireland, was beyond his comprehension. He was also at a loss to understand why certain Members should endeavour to make this a religious question, as there were both Roman Catholics and Protestants among the teachers. The purpose of the Bill before the House was to provide, out of money belonging to the Irish people, a fund to help National School teachers in Ireland, and enable them to enjoy a pension in their old age. The matter had been discussed several times, and the claims of the teachers had been admitted. It had been suggested that the object of the Government was a corrupt one; but, so far as he could see, there was not the slightest foundation for the suggestion. Who, indeed, were to be corrupted? The Irish Members, or the Irish teachers? In what way were they to be corrupted? The aim of the Government was perfectly consistent with the Irish Church Act. The Fund created by the operation of that Act had already been used for the purpose of advancing Intermediate Education in Ireland, and was about to be used in support of University Education, and the object of the Government on the present occasion was again educational. He hoped, therefore, that no attempt would be made to defeat the claims of a most deserving body of men.
§ MR. M'LARENsaid, that before going to the point with which lie wished principally to deal, he muse take excep- 896 tion to the principle laid down by the hon. Member who had just spoken. The hon. Member for Limerick County seemed to imagine that only hon. Gentlemen from Ireland had a right to deal with a question of this kind; but that was a principle to which he altogether demurred. The Irish Church Fund was devoted by Act of Parliament for special purposes, and the House was now practically asked to repeal that Act, and allow the Fund to be applied to a different purpose. They were the Parliament, not of England, Scotland, and Ireland, separately, but of the United Kingdom; and he held that every hon. Member had just as much right to speak and vote on such a question as the purest born Irishman, though, no doubt, good feeling and good fellowship would make the House give considerable weight to the opinion of Irish Members. He did not object to the Bill as being unnecessary and unjust; but he objected to the monetary provision as coming from a wrong source. He thought the proper course was to raise the teachers' salaries in the same manner as they had been raised in England and Scotland. Why should not the fund for pensions be raised by means of a rate levied oh houses and lands? It was but a short time since that Irish Members had contended for the same law for Ireland as for England in the case of Election Petitions. Let them apply the same principle to this case. He found, from the Reports respecting Ireland and Scotland, that the whole amount of the education rate in Ireland in one year was £21,687, while in Scotland it was £320,000, or nearly 20 times more than in Ireland. So, again, in respect to school pence. In Ireland, the school pence amounted to £84,000; and in Scotland, although the population was much smaller, to £162,000, being just about double the sum raised in Ireland. These were the sources from which the salaries of teachers were so properly and sufficiently raised in England and Scotland, and these were the legitimate sources. The money to meet local wants should be raised from local funds, and these were the local funds. There were in both countries some small endowments, and the total sum raised from local sources of every kind in Ireland was £119,000. This was all that Ireland raised for the education of her children; 897 but in Scotland the sum was £529,000. Nothing could be more cruel and unjust than to pay an additional large sum to Ireland out of the Consolidated Fund, as would be done next year, according to the Secretary to the Treasury, and to make England and Scotland pay large proportions of that additional sum merely to relieve the pockets of the Irish landowners. As to the cost of education, he found that each pupil in Ireland, according to the Report of the Commissioners, paid 4s. 1d. per year towards the cost of his education; whereas in Scotland he paid 12s. 9d. Well, then, if Scotland paid such a large sum, on what principle of justice could she be asked to raise another sum for Ireland, when the lands and property in the latter country were just as available for the levying of rates as those of England or Scotland? During the present year the Civil Service Estimates showed that £673,000 had been voted to Ireland, and £469,000 to Scotland. He did not complain that one sum was too large for Ireland, or the other too small for Scotland. But he mentioned the fact simply to show what the difference was. If population were taken as the rule, Ireland did not get too much; but if the rateable value of land and taxation were taken into account, Ireland cither got too much, or Scotland too little. As he had already said, however, he did not complain; but he wanted to know why the Irish landowners should not do their duty towards the tenantry on their own estates? These were considerations which ought to be taken into account before any patchwork Bill like the one before the House was passed, and he begged to support the Amendment.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL,in one respect, differed from those of his hon. Friends who had spoken, because he thought there could be no more appropriate destination for the Surplus of the Irish Church Fund than primary education in Ireland. The clergy had had the lion's share of the Fund already. He had seen many of them in Scotland, and found that they had brought a great deal of plunder with them from Ireland. He believed that it was putting the Funds to a better use in assisting primary education than in endowing University Education in Ireland; but he had doubts as to the particular object of the providing of pensions for the teachers. There 898 might be a good deal to say in its favour; but it struck him as singular that neither in Scotland or England were teachers provided with pensions, and he could not see why it was found necessary in Ireland. He would not, however, complain, if this as an Irish object was met by the Irish Church Fund and thus settled the matter; but they had had the statement from the Chief Secretary that their pockets were pledged also to some £40,000 or £50,000 a-year, out of which England and Scotland paid the large proportion for salaries to these Irish teachers. Seeing very strong objection to this, he should support the hon. Member for Liskeard; because he believed that, in devoting these Funds to the purpose, they were paving the way to a large demand upon England and Scotland next February. The only interference English and Scotch Members objected to was the interference of Ireland with their pockets; and he thought the remark of an hon. Member was right that a shower of benefits was being conferred by Her Majesty's Government upon the Irish people, and particularly upon Irish schoolmasters. He hoped this was not being done merely for the purpose of gaining ground for the Government in Ireland in view of a General Election. He thought there was great force in the question of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) as to why all that was necessary had not been done by means of rates. It was, he thought, perfectly puerile to say that the existing law had as yet been fully and fairly tried. It seemed to him that the real truth was that our only reason for keeping Ireland lay in the fact that a considerable number of Englishmen owned property there—a fact but for which the British Parliament would have been prepared long ago to grant Home Rule to the Irish people, instead of granting funds from the Imperial Exchequer for the maintenance of the police and educational institutions in that country. England and Scotland having to maintain their own police, and to see to the education of their people, he saw no sufficient reason why Ireland should not do the same. Further, he saw no grounds for refraining from applying the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church to Irish education; but he thought that when that Fund had been exhausted the balance 899 should be raised by means of rates, payable by the Irish people, and not from the Consolidated Fund.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, he was much surprised at the want of knowledge of Irish fiscal arrangements which had been shown in the course of the debate. Ireland contributed 5s. 3d. in the pound of her income under all Schedules to the Imperial Exchequer. Her fair proportionate contribution to that Exchequer was something short of 2s. 6½d. in the pound; but, at the same time, it was urged in some quarters that Ireland was robbing the Imperial coffers, as if more than her actual contribution had ever been devoted to purely Irish purposes. A great deal of the opposition sprung from the fact that hon. Members forgot, in the expiring days of the Session, that a debt was due to Ireland in the matter of the primary schools. He, therefore, hoped that, if the Amendment was not withdrawn, a Division would be taken as early as possible, in order that they might go home.
MR. C. BECKETT-DENISONobjected to that portion of the Bill which sought to impose a portion of the cost of Irish primary education on the Consolidated Fund of the country. He should offer a most strenuous opposition to this portion of the measure; and should, when the Bill got into Committee, endeavour to make good what he had to say on this point.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clauses 1 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 7 (Commissioners of National Debt may advance funds).
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ MR. COURTNEY moved the rejection of the clause. He said that, whatever the Committee might think of the im-policy of devoting a part of the Irish Church Surplus Fund to the provision of pensions for Irish school teachers, they ought not to be asked to supplement in an unknown manner from the Con- 900 solidated Fund. This was a part of the Bill concerning which the Chief Secretary had not given much information. If it should be necessary to supplement the available portion of the Church Fund, Parliament ought not to be asked for this supplementary sum without full and detailed explanation as to the source from which it was to be derived.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that as the Committee was aware, the Government had already hypothecated certain sums for the purpose of providing the necessary funds; but it might happen, from time to time, that it would be necessary, in the case of interests which had to be bought out, to make payments at an uncertain rate, and at such times the Consolidated Fund might be called upon to contribute the money; but he did not anticipate that any such necessity would arise. In any case, the Consolidated Fund would only be called upon to meet temporary necessities, and would not have to bear a permament charge. He proposed to add words to the Schedule, fixing the number of those who would come within the Act. That number would be in excess of those now actually in service.
MR. C. BECKETT-DENISONsaid, that he was bound to say that he did not think that the explanation of the Chief Secretary was in any degree a satisfactory one. He objected, as a matter of principle, to any charge whatsoever being placed on the Consolidated Fund for the purpose of primary education in Ireland. It was not the case in either England or Scotland. The proportion which the Irish nation paid per head was 16s. as to 40s. paid by England and Scotland. There was no particular reason for placing a charge of this nature on the Consolidated Fund. The Chief Secretary said that the charge was only temporary; but the principle was wrong. He should, therefore, feel bound to take a Division.
§ MR. O'CLERYreminded the Committee that the system of national education, so-called, in Ireland was forced on the country 35 years ago. It was known then as the mixed system of education, and was contrary to the wishes of the Irish people. If the English and Scottish people chose to force the system upon Ireland, it was very hard that the Irish people should have to pay for it.
§ SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTthought that it was going much too far to seek to throw the payment of these pensions, or any part of them, upon the Consolidated Fund. He, at the same time, had no objection to what he understood as the original proposal—namely, that they should be paid out of the Surplus Funds of the Irish Church. He, therefore, agreed with the views expressed by the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. C. Beckett-Denison).
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had no explanation to give beyond that already made by his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary. It was estimated, on the basis of actuarial calculations, that the amount available from the Irish Church Fund would be sufficient; but there must necessarily be some little uncertainty as to the number of years in which provision would have to be made. It was estimated that the sum required to provide these pensions would be £1,300,000; but in a matter of this kind there must necessarily be fluctuations; and it would be rather hard that in a year in which the amount drawn was in excess of the sum provided there should be a deficiency of funds, when, in another year, it would be on an entirely different scale, and the one would right the other. Therefore, a Proviso was introduced that in such case an advance, which should be temporary, should be made out of the Consolidated Fund; but such advance was to be specially certified to Parliament.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not met the objections raised by the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney), and the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), as to devoting a portion of the Consolidated Fund to the payment of these pensions. If, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, there might be some years in which the sum necessary was larger than the sum provided, why should not that fall upon the Irish Church Surplus Fund, instead of upon the Consolidated Fund? When the question as to the provision of funds for the higher education in Ireland was again raised in the House he should not forget the line taken on the present occasion by supporters of the Go- 902 vernment so prominent as the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire and the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex. If the present debate had no other use, it would have been productive of not unimportant utterances in that respect.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 71; Noes 16: Majority 55.—(Div. List, No. 237.)
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Extension of borrowing powers of Commissioners of Church Temporalities).
MR. O. BECKETT-DENISONsaid, this clause required some explanation. It proposed to make certain alterations, and to extend certain borrowing powers; and he wished to know why it was not provided that the whole of the money required for the purposes of the Bill should be charged to the Church Surplus Fund?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERreplied, that no actual charge would be made upon the Consolidated Fund; but in case of any unexpected demand of a reasonable character being made it Was thought desirable that there should be access to the Treasury for the purpose of meeting a temporary emergency.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 9, 10, and 11, agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Extension of power to make loans for residences).
§ MR. COURTNEYasked for some explanation of its purpose, remarking that he did not understand why the mere advancing of money necessitated the alterations which the clause proposed to make.
§ MR. MELDONpointed out that, under the Teachers' Residences Act, the managers of schools and others interested in them were enabled to go to the Board of Works and obtain a moiety of the necessary funds for the purpose of erecting the necessary building. By the provisions for the non-vested schools, the managers would be entitled to go to the Board of Works and borrow the entire amount of the purchase money, which was to be repayable by annual instalments at 5 per cent interest, and he understood the intention of the clause 903 was to place the vested schools on the same terms as those on which the non-vested schools were.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman was quite correct. The clause would not impose any charge either upon the Church Fund or upon the Consolidated Fund. It was to enable money to be borrowed from the Public Works Loan Commissioners on proper security under their control.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Schedule.
§ MR. J. LOWTHER moved to insert the following new paragraph:—
§ "(10.) For the purposes of this Act, the several classes of teachers above the third class shall be deemed to consist of the following-numbers (hereinafter called 'he standard numbers'), that is to say:—
| Males. | |
| First Class—First Division | 150 |
| First Class—Second Division | 410 |
| Second Class | 1,850 |
| Females. | |
| First Class—First Division | 130 |
| First Class—Second Division | 350 |
| Second Class | 1,550 |
§ The right hon. Gentleman said this was the Amendment which he had before referred to, as showing that the calculations on which the actuaries proceeded would not be liable to be set aside by any influx of new teachers. Under this proposal, new teachers, who exceeded the numbers stated, would, for the first few months or a year of their holding office, be placed in a position somewhat analogous to that of a student in view of a vacancy. In that way the new teacher would not be entitled to avail 904 himself of the benefits of the Act until there was a vacancy for him within the limits prescribed by the Bill.
§ MR. COURTNEYwas afraid the defence to be afforded by this scheme would be very unsatisfactory, and, in practice, would not be found to be trustworthy. It was quite clear they would not be able to exclude from this scheme schoolmasters in excess of the prescribed number. He wished to ask at what rate of interest had these calculations been made? He observed that the sum for pensions to females was a good deal less than for pensions to men of the same age.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, the calculation was of a very elaborate character, and had been carefully gone through by able actuaries. It seemed to be an average calculation, based upon the experience of Life Offices and Post Office annuities. The teachers were to provide a quarter of the pensions, and the other three-quarters would come out of the fund. Of course, in the case of existing teachers, the loss to the fund would be considerable, because they would be entitled to reap advantages which would accrue to them, they having remained in the service until they were 40 years of age; so that, in their case, it was difficult to say what average to strike; but the whole were taken together and represented by the whole capital sum which was mentioned. If a teacher quitted the service otherwise than by death before becoming entitled to a pension a premium was paid, and, to that extent the scheme would act very much in the light of a savings' bank.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, he asked on what rate these calculations were based? What interest was to be allowed to depositors in the savings' bank?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, it was not a savings' bank at all; it was an insurance.
§ MR. COURTNEYknew that; but wished to know what rate of interest was assumed in working out the scheme?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERreplied, that was an elaborate calculation. He submitted that it was of the nature of a savings' bank with regard to those who left the service otherwise than by death; but with regard to those who died in harness, or took their pensions in their turn, it was not a savings' bank at all. 905 It was an actuarial calculation, and it I was impossible for him to say what was the rate of interest.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would find out, because the actuary had gone upon the assumption that a certain sum of money paid in would meet all demands. That assumption was based on the supposition that a certain rate of interest could be relied upon, and he wished to know what was the rate of interest? One rate ran through the whole. It might be 3½ or 4 per cent.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERinquired whether the hon. Gentleman meant the rate of interest used for the £1,300,000?
§ MR. COURTNEYYes; upon that and upon the other funds coming into the hands of the Commissioners.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that was a different thing. He understood the hon. Gentleman to wish to know the rate at which the calculation was based as to contributions. The rate of interest was calculated at 3½ per cent.
§ MR. GRAYremarked, as regarded the difference between males and females, it was a well-known actuarial fact that the chances of life were in favour of females, and that annuities could be granted to them at a lower rate.
MR. C. BECKETT-DENISONsaid, first, he gathered from the scheme that at present there existed a system of grants for those who voluntarily retired at any time. Under the Bill there were pensions for all who retired after the age of 55. He wished to know at what period after the passing of this Act must anyone have served in order to entitle him to a pension under this Bill?
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, it was a matter of age, not of mere service.
§ MR. COURTNEYwould like to point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if the calculation was based on the assumption that 3½ per cent would be received by the Commissioners of the National Debt on the money in their hands it was inevitable that a large loss must ensue. The Commissioners did not make anything like that. They were only able to allow 2½ per cent to the Post Office, and 3¼ per cent to the ordinary savings' banks, and they lost largely in their dealings with the latter; and if they took to allowing 3½ per cent to these schoolmasters for the pension 906 fund there would certainly be a deficiency, which would have to be provided out of the Consolidated Fund.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the money was not to come from the Commissioners, but from the Church Surplus Fund.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, yes, a certain fixed sum; but that was paid to the National Debt Commissioners, and then became part of their funds.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ MR. J. LOWTHER moved, in paragraph 15, page 8, line 20, to leave out "teacher," and insert "male teacher under the age of fifty-five, or a female teacher under the age of fifty."
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Preamble agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERbelieved it was the general wish of the House that the Bill should be able to proceed in "anther place;" and, with the consent of the House, he would move that the Bill, as amended, be now considered.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ Bill, as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.