§ Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [25th July], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
§ Question again proposed.
§ Debate resumed.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, that' no doubt, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would re-member that when that Bill was before the House on a former occasion he had promised that a fair opportunity should be given for discussing it. He certainly did not think that the Bill ought to be proceeded with at that late hour; but, of course, he was in the hands of the Government in the matter. He might say that it would be totally impossible at that time to discuss objections to the measure. If the Bill was proceeded with, he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would give some more explanation with regard to it than had yet been done. The Bill was originally introduced with the explanation that its object was to meet certain difficulties with regard to exchanges. That had now passed over, and, in all probability, the object of the Government in proceeding with the measure had no reference to that subject. He could perfectly understand that it might be the object of the Government to retain a certain margin of money in their own hands; but the sum which was to be taken under the present Bill was too largo, he feared that the possession of the funds which the Bill sanctioned would put the Indian Government in a position to carry on another Afghan War without any additional resources. Her Majesty's Government were not likely to do anything unreasonable or contrary to precedent; but they must remember that they had in India a Governor General who had done some things contrary to what had been done before, and they should not put it in his power to enter upon a war without coming to the House for funds to do so. He hoped that they would have some explanation from the Government with regard to the Bill.
§ SIR DAVID WEDDERBURNobserved, that he had given Notice of a Resolution to the effect that the time had arrived when the Natives of India ought to have some share in the representation of the country. At that time in the morning it was impossible to raise a debate upon such an important question; and he should, therefore, not move the Resolution of which he had given Notice until early next Session, or in the next Parliament.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERthanked both hon. Gentlemen for permitting the Bill to proceed on that occasion. The questions in which the hon. Gentlemen were respectively interested were questions of very great interest, and deserved time for their full discussion. At the time the Bill was introduced the principle upon which the Government promoted it was explained; and it was only necessary for him to remark that the object was to give power to the Secretary of State for India to raise money in that country, if necessary, for the purpose of meeting the demands of the Indian Government.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 1 (Power to the Secretary of State in Council of India to raise any sum not exceeding £5,000,000).
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLbegged to move an Amendment that stood in his name to the effect that the amount of money which the Bill authorized to be raised should be reduced to £2,000,000. His object in moving that Amendment was that it might be made clearer for what object it was proposed to take power to raise so large a sum as £5,000,000. For all purposes in connection with exchange, the sum of £2,000,000 would be quite sufficient. He would seriously repeat his opinion, that the effect of permitting so large a sum as £5,000,000 to be raised would be to enable the Indian Government to use it for another war, or for other military purposes, without previously coming to the House for authority.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 12, to leave out the word "Five," in order to insert the word "Two."—(Sir George Campbell.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'Five' stand part of the Clause."
584§ SIR DAVID WEDDERBURNremarked, that when the Bill was first introduced the amount which it was proposed to take power to raise was £10,000,000, and that had been reduced to half that sum; and he thought it might well be reduced to a still smaller sum.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, that he had already explained to the House the reason for reducing the sum which the Bill authorized to be borrowed to £5,000,000. It was only desired to obtain power to raise that money, if absolutely necessary, in order to meet the necessities of the exchanges between India and England. He was sure the House would like to receive an announcement that nothing had been borrowed under the Bill, and, if it were possible, nothing would be borrowed. But, after full consideration of all the facts of the case, and after consultation with the financial authorities, they had felt that it was not consistent with the provision that they ought to make if they took power to borrow a less sum than £5,000,000. During the next week Parliament would rise, and there would be an interval of something like six months before it sat again. During that time they had to provide for the Indian Government about £1,000,000 or £1,500,000 per month. It was absolutely impossible to say but that they might at any time be compelled to suspend their drawings, and they would then be left without any resources, unless they had the powers given by the Bill. Without the authority given by the Bill they would only be able to borrow temporarily, and at a great loss. He could assure the Committee that he had gone over the matter very carefully in consultation, with those best informed on the subject; and, under all the circumstances of the case, he did not think he should be justified in agreeing to taking power by the Bill to borrow any less sum than £5.000,000.
§ MR. FAWCETTsaid, that it was impossible at that time to discuss the important questions raised by that Bill. The Bill had been three months upon the Paper, and during that time the circumstances under which it was first required to obtain the money had very much changed, and there was not the same necessity at the present time for so large a sum as when the Bill was first 585 brought in. The Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) was on even a stronger ground than that. Besides the fact that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary now told them that it was the intention of the Government to apply the money obtained under the Bill for the purpose of affecting the exchange, not a single word had been said as to the money borrowed not being applied to purposes totally unconnected with the exchange. Supposing another war was to break out, the money borrowed under the Bill might be used to carry on that war without obtaining the authority and sanction of Parliament. He did not say that it was the intention of the Government to use the money obtained in that manner; but there was nothing to prevent its being done. He did object to placing so large a sum of money in the hands of the Government for the purpose of speculation. The Bill would enable the Government to speculate in silver—that was to say, it would enable them to speculate in the exchange, which was the same thing. If, for instance, in October they required £1,500,000, the financial authorities at the India Office might think that it would be easier to go into the market in November and accordingly borrow money under the Bill. It seemed to him that it was an exceedingly perilous power to place in the hands of the Government for it to raise so large a sum of money as was authorized by the Bill. According to the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary, it was clear that the money was to be used for speculating in exchange. The Bill did not tie the hands of the Government in any way either as to the amount to be borrowed or as to the purpose to which the money was to be applied. In respect to the amount, the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary had told them that the financial authorities did not consider that any less sum than £5,000,000 would be sufficient; but he would remind them that the same financial authorities at first considered that £10.000,000 was necessary.
§ MR. ONSLOWwas sorry that the hon. Member for Hackney should have remarked that the Government would use the money borrowed under the Bill for speculating in finances. In his opinion, the object of the Government was only 586 to save money, and in no way to speculate upon the exchange.
§ MR. FAWCETTobserved that his hon. Friend, no doubt, did not intentionally misrepresent him, and he would explain that he did not use the word "speculate" in any invidious sense. He had only pointed out that if the exchange was exceptionally bad in October the Government might borrow instead of selling bills to remit to India; whereas, in November, the exchange might be still more unfavourable, and the Government would thus have made an exceedingly bad bargain.
§ MR. ONSLOWaccepted the explanation of the hon. Member for Hackney, as, without some explanation, the term might have an ugly sound in India; but he had also remarked that the money might be used for war purposes. If it were so used, the hon. Member would have an opportunity of coming to the House and moving that the money should not be used for the purposes of war. He did, however, think that the sum, the borrowing of which was authorized by the Bill, was very large. The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary had assured them that the financial authorities of the India Office were of opinion that they could not do with any less sum than £5,000,000. As they had the positive and distinct authority of the Government that it was necessary to borrow £5,000,000, he did not think that the Committee should reduce the sum. If, after mature deliberation on the part of the India Office, who must be quite as alive to the state of the Indian finances as any Member of that House, that sum had been fixed upon, he did not think that it ought to be reduced by an adverse vote. He, therefore, hoped that his hon. Friend would not go to a Division.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEobserved, that it was only proposed to use the powers of the Bill where it was impossible for them to sell their bills, from the price being such that, looking at what would be a practice in ordinary business life, it would be more expedient for them to borrow. Under any other circumstances, they did not intend to borrow. For any purposes of speculation, it was certainly not their intention to borrow.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLwas not quite satisfied with the explanation of Her Majesty's Government that they 587 did not intend, and that they never proposed, to deal with exchanges in the way of speculation. It seemed to him that £2,000,000 would be quite sufficient for the purpose for which they said they required it. He would further point out to the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary that he had not given any answer to the point he had raised—namely, as to whether the £5,000,000 might not be spent for any other purpose not specially sanctioned or contemplated by Parliament? He would like to know whether it was the case that if the Indian Government became involved in any fresh war they could not spend that £5,000,000 for the purposes of such war without the sanction of Parliament? It seemed to him that the proper limit for the money to be borrowed under the Act was the sum which would be necessary solely to meet the purpose the Government now stated. With respect to fresh troubles in Afghanistan, it should be remembered that by law the Government of India were not authorized to spend the Indian Revenues in carrying on any war beyond the Frontiers of India. If any such necessity arose, it was necessary, first, for thorn to come to Parliament to obtain the sanction to the expenditure. But the Frontiers of India had now been carried beyond the Indus, and a question might arise as to where the Frontiers of India were now situate. They had established a political Resident at Cabul, and it might be a question whether the Frontiers of India had been extended not only in that direction, but in others. He should like some specific assurance that the passing of the Bill would not enable the Government to carry on another war in India without coming to Parliament.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, that if the hon. Member was serious in the question which he had put, he could only say that it was humanly possible for the money raised under the Bill to be applied to the purposes he had stated. Upon the extreme improbability of that course being taken he need not, however, remark. Although it was perfectly true that things were better at that time than they were when the Bill was introduced, yet, as regarded the exchange, he could not see that they had much improved, and it was absolutely necessary to obtain power to raise the money.
§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLwas sure that the Government would not make a war if they could help it; but he did not understand the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary to say that if it should be determined to make a war the £5,000,000 could not be used for that purpose without first coming to Parliament for further authority. If that were so, he would leave it in the hands of the House to determine whether it was right or prudent to leave such a power in the hands of Her Majesty's Government.
§ MR. E. STANHOPEremarked, that the Government would have to come to Parliament for a Vote in the case of any expedition beyond the Frontiers of India.
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, that the Bill would place £5,000,000 in the hands of the Government, to use for any purpose to which they chose to apply it. He could not help thinking that it would be quite sufficient for the purpose of meeting the difficulties of the exchange that the Government should take a sum equivalent to two months' drawing.
§ MR. WHITWELLobserved, that there was a question how far the Vote of Credit was to extend. He did not see any reason for putting the Vote of Credit in the hands of the Government for a period exceeding 10 years.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 53; Noes 18: Majority 35.—(Div. List, No. 220.)
§ MR. COURTNEYsaid, that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary had accepted all his Amendments. He would only remark, therefore, that they simply provided for the mode in which the money was to be borrowed.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.