HC Deb 04 August 1879 vol 249 cc168-74

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £3,007,000, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Provisions, Forage, Fuel, Transport and other Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE moved that the Chairman do report Progress. He did not think that they should go into the Army Estimates at that late hour. Several hon. Members were absent who would have been in their places had they thought that the Army Estimates would have been taken that night. Knowing that the Votes were of the greatest interest to them, he thought it unfair that they should be taken at that hour.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Major O'Beine.)

COLONEL STANLEY

hoped that the Committee would bear in mind the time of the year at which they had arrived. If they were in the month of March or April it might be said that it would be fair to postpone the Estimate for another day. But the House could not adjourn until the Estimates had been disposed of, and it would not be convenient for hon. Members to be kept in town to a much later period than usual. Under these circumstances, he thought that the Committee might fairly go on. If they came to any subject which was clearly provocative of discussion, then a question would arise as to whether they should report Progress or not.

MR. DILLWYN

did not think it right that they should go on at that time in the morning discussing the Estimates after the long debate that had taken place. Many hon. Members who wished to take part in the discussion of the Estimates were not present.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

said, that the Estimates could be taken perfectly well on Wednesday. They were of the greatest interest to several Irish Members who were not in their places and who had never expected that the Votes would be taken at that time. He should certainly persist in his Motion to report Progress.

MR. MONK

inquired how many Votes it was proposed to take before they adjourned? There were 42 Orders upon the Paper, and if it were intended to go on with the other Government Business it was really no use proceeding with the Estimates.

MR. CHILDERS

wished to make a suggestion to hon. Members on both sides of the House. If it were found that a serious difference of opinion arose on any Vote which it was proposed to take, then he did not think it should be taken, although they were in the month of August, after half-past 1 in the morning. If there was no great difference of opinion, then, considering that they were in the month of August, and that they wanted to get through the Business of Parliament, he would appeal to hon. Members not to move the adjournment.

COLONEL STANLEY

was quite willing to adopt the course which had been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract.

MR. RYLANDS

ventured also to appeal to the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim to withdraw his Motion. It would be most inconvenient not to take the unopposed Votes then.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

said, that he would not object to Votes 5, 10, 11, and 12 being taken. He begged leave to withdraw his Motion.

MR. PAENELL

thought that there were many points in the Votes which required explanation from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War; and there ought to be a limit to the time during which they were kept there. Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell them how long they were to be kept there?

COLONEL STANLEY

said, that he could not give any such assurance as that asked for.

MR. PARNELL

asked how many Votes the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wished to take.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. PARNELL moved to report Progress, because he thought they ought to have some understanding on the point. So far as the Notice Paper went the Votes were absolutely unopposed; but it was quite impossible to get through them at that time in any reasonable manner. He thought that, at half-past 1 in the morning, they were entitled to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to set some limit to the number of Votes he proposed to take.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Parnell.)

COLONEL STANLEY

said, that at Vote 13 there were two substantial Amendments on the Paper, and he would not propose to go beyond that.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. PARNELL

said, there was an item of £20,000 in this Vote for forage, of which he wished to have some explanation. On the other side of the account the amount was £30,000, so that there was a discrepancy of £10,000.

COLONEL STANLEY

replied, that the two items were the same, one being the gross amount and the other the net, some of the surplus stores having been sold.

MR. WHITWELL

pointed out that the cost of transport abroad had largely increased.

COLONEL STANLEY

admitted that that was so; but it arose from exceptional causes.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) £801,600, Clothing Establishments, agreed to.

(4.) £34,400, Miscellaneous Effective Services.

MR. PARNELL

said, this Vote included the cost of the medals for the Perak War, and they ought to have an opportunity of discussing that question. The Perak Expedition was not a war at all. Our Forces were only opposed to 200 Natives, and no European was killed. It was, in fact, nothing but a slight brush with a few robbers.

MR. MACDONALD

hoped the Secretary of State for War would explain why these medals were given.

COLONEL STANLEY

could not state the whole of the circumstances that led to this war, which took place in the year 1875. The facts were these. The Resident was attacked by the Natives and murdered, and the escort, which was proceeding up the river to support the Resident, was fired upon. It was clearly a very sharp action while it lasted, and there were a considerable number of men killed and wounded. The troops were exposed to very considerable hardships, and it was the opinion of the Government that some medal should be given. The matter was pressed upon the Government by several hon. Members; and although his right hon. Friend who preceded him did not think a special medal should be granted for it, at the same time was of opinion that the action was one of some severity, and it was thought that a medal should be given for the Burmese War, with a special clasp for this action.

Vote agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £232,700, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Administration of the Army, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE moved to report Progress, as this was a Vote that interested many hon. Members who were not present.

COLONEL STANLEY

I will postpone it then.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote postponed.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £35,900, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals (In- Pensions), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.

MR. PARNELL

thought this Vote ought to be postponed also, as it involved a very important question about which a Parliamentary Return had been moved for.

COLONEL STANLEY

If the hon. Member has any objection to the Vote he should say what the objection is.

MR. PARNELL

said, that the Vote contained the salaries of certain chaplains, and there was a great disproportion between the salaries of the Roman, Catholic and the Protestant chaplains. He really must move to report Progress. The Secretary of State for War had given no explanation as to the chaplains, and was not treating hon. Members properly.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Parnell.)

MR. DILLWYN

thought the Committee ought to have reported Progress long ago. The Business was being conducted in an irregular manner, and they were not doing justice to its importance. It was impossible to get through all the remaining Estimates at that Sitting, and the Votes ought not to be pushed on too fast.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

should certainly support the hon. Member for Meath, because the hon. and gallant Member for Cork was interested in this Vote, and did not wish it to be taken in his absence.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 11; Noes 88: Majority 77.—(Div. List, No. 207.)

MR. BIGGAR moved that the Chairman do leave the Chair. It was now nearly 2 o'clock, and it would take a considerable time to get through the Orders of the Day, as Report on Supply would have to be taken. The principle of giving Protestant chaplains more than the Roman Catholic chaplains was an injustice which must not be allowed to continue. No explanation had been given.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Biggar.)

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, this was not a question of obstruction; but it was time the Committee reported Progress. That day, at 2 o'clock, they were to have a most important discussion on the Irish University Bill, and he must ask the Government to allow them to adjourn the further discussion of Votes.

MR. PARNELL

did not see why this Vote should not be postponed. It was one which he and other hon. Members distinctly objected to. The chaplain at Chelsea Hospital received £400 a-year, while the allowance to the Roman Catholic chaplain was only £25. It would, no doubt, be said that there were more Protestants than Roman Catholics at the Chelsea Hospital; but that was not so at the Kilmainham Hospital, where the Protestant chaplain received £250 a-year, and the Roman Catholic chaplain only £75.

COLONEL STANLEY

was not aware that this Vote would be seriously opposed. This was a non-effective Vote, and he was willing to allow it to stand over and take those Votes which were not opposed.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

(5.) £1,186,000, Out-Pensions, agreed to.

(6.) £178,600, Superannuation Allowances, agreed to.

(7.) £37,800, Militia, Yeomanry Cavalry, and Volunteer Corps.

SIR ARTHUR HAYTER

said, that the retiring allowances to Volunteer officers had increased from £4,000 to £4,500. Was that on account of the increased number of old adjutants retiring?

COLONEL STANLEY

replied, that the increase was principally one day's pay for the extra day in Leap Year. This amount would vary occasionally.

SIR ARTHUR HAYTER

supposed that the recommendations of the Volunteer Committee with regard to the adjutants was still under the consideration of the Government, and whether the recommendations would be carried out would depend upon the Government.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £1,100,000, Indian Home Charges.

COLONEL STANLEY

remarked that this Vote was the Indian Home Charges connected with the Army, and was an old matter of account.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;

Committee to sit again To-morrow.