§
(11.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £203,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, Allowances, &c. of a number of Army Reserve First Class, not exceeding 22,000, and of the Army Reserve Second Class, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEthought hon. Members present were scarcely prepared to enter into the consideration of the Army Estimates. He had some remarks to make upon the subject of the Military Schools, and had got up some information with reference thereto which he doubted not would be very much to the point; but he objected to the Vote being taken at that hour, when the several points of importance which arose upon it could not be adequately discussed. He, therefore, moved that Progress be reported.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Major O'Beirne.)
2000COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYhoped that the Government would be allowed to proceed with this Vote. The Army Votes to be considered were upon the Paper, and he did not think any hon. Member could complain that this proposal had taken them unawares.
§ MR. PARNELLthought that the Government should not take the Army Estimates at that time. Practically speaking, there was only time for the Committee to wind up its Business. There were three important questions upon Report which would take all the time up to 6 o'clock to discuss. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he would not sit later than 6 o'clock; and if the Army Estimates were proceeded with it would be, practically, impossible to make any progress. He and his hon. Friends had all come down there for the purpose of discussing certain questions on Report, to which he thought they ought now to proceed.
§ COLONEL ARBUTHNOTsaid, that the hour was not one at which he liked the Army Votes to be brought forward; but he would remind hon. Members opposite that they were, perhaps, as responsible as any other Members for their being brought forward at that time. The Business had been inconveniently delayed, and the result was that the Votes had been brought on at an inconvenient time. However, he did not think it mattered much whether they were taken then or some days hence. He hoped the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne) would withdraw his Motion.
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEregretted his inability to withdraw his Motion.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERhoped the hon. and gallant Member would allow the Committee to proceed with the Army Votes.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 8; Noes 85: Majority 77.—(Div. List, No. 203.)
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ MR. PARNELLbegged to move that the Chairman do now leave the Chair. He did not think the Government were treating them fairly in this matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told the House on the previous day that he did not want to sit longer than 6 o'clock.
2001 There were two Reports of Supply down on the Paper, and there were two or three very important questions involved in those Reports, and it would take until 6 o'clock to finish the discussion which would arise upon them. If they continued the discussion on the Estimates, they could not possibly take Report that evening without exceeding the time named by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was very unfair that Members should be invited to come down to the House, in order to discuss the Report of Supply, and that they should be kept until after the time arranged. He hoped Government would agree to report Progress, and he would then withdraw his Motion.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Parnell.)
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas sorry it was impossible to oblige everybody. The Government were extremely anxious to get on with Supply, and he thought the hon. Member for Meath must see that they had been anxious that day to make an arrangement, as far as possible, to meet the convenience of hon. Members. He could not undertake, at the present time, to stop Supply, and he was afraid it might be difficult to reach the Report of Supply before 6 o'clock; But they were, of course, not bound to that time to a minute, and it was only arranged that they should not sit for more than a short time after it.
§ MR. PARNELLwished to remind the Committee how matters stood. He had had a Notice on the Paper which he was anxious to move; but which, being connected with the same question of Report of Supply, he had not moved, upon the understanding that he was to have an opportunity of discussion on Report of Supply. He and his hon. Friends had been waiting all day long, only to find that they could not discuss it that evening. The promise given by the Secretary to the Treasury, that he would endeavour to put Report on the Paper at such an hour that it could be discussed, was, as all hon. Members must be aware, a very vague kind of promise, considering the period of the Session, and would, in all probability, come to nothing. He admitted that the hon. Baronet had done everything pos- 2002 sible to enable them to discuss the question; but if Supply came on that day they would have no opportunity of making their Motions, and would, therefore, be left to an undefined probability of discussion. The Government, in all probability, would be compelled to take the Report of Supply at an hour when it would be impossible to discuss it; and he thought it would have been much better that morning not to have given way to the Government, in which case they would have got no Supply at all.
§ MR. RYLANDSwished to make a remark as an English Member. While he was always ready to assist his Irish Friends in their legitimate demands, he was bound to say that the exactions which they were then making upon the time of the House could not be granted without interfering very much with other hon. Members. The hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) complained that he had been in his place expecting the opportunity of making some remarks upon the Report of Supply. His hon. Friend was, of course, entitled to make those remarks, and he was sure that the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury would give him sufficient opportunity for discussing this deferred Vote of Supply. But he wished to remind the House that the English Members had also come down, at great inconvenience, to discuss a number of Estimates which appeared on the Paper that morning, and to assist the Government in getting through their Business. He did not, personally, make any profession of having a great disposition to assist the Government at anytime. But, in the present case, by assisting the Government to get through their Business, they were actually promoting their own convenience, for if they did not do so they would necessarily be kept there some considerable time longer. Of course, he regretted that the House were driven into a corner by Supply. It was most unfortunate that on that particular Saturday they should be dealing with Votes of Supply; but the fact was due to the continual desire, on the part of the Government, to oblige Gentlemen from Ireland, and in consequence the Public Business had been thrown into absolute confusion. He felt almost certain that, at that moment, neither the hon. Baronet nor the hon. Member for Meath 2003 could tell which. Votes had been carried, and which had been postponed. The South Kensington Vote was postponed at the instance of the Irish Members; and the consequence was that another very important Vote was taken, upon which he (Mr. Rylands) wished to make some observations. The same thing had happened with the Scotch Votes. Hon. Members from Scotland came down in order to take part in the discussion of the Scotch University Vote, and they found that was postponed also, on what he must call the unreasonable application of his hon. Friends from Ireland. He appealed to them to say whether it was reasonable that the convenience of Englishmen and Scotchmen should be entirely sacrificed to that of half-a-dozen Irishmen? He trusted the hon. Member for Meath would not press his Motion.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ LORD ELCHOfelt bound to say a few words upon the question of Army Reserve. The War Office Committee, which had been appointed to deal with the whole subject, was, in his opinion, unnecessary, as he believed that the Secretary of State for War, with the information at his disposal at the War Office, had ample opportunity of coming to a decision himself upon the questions involved. The effect of the appointment of the Committee would be to postpone to future years, in the case of the Army Reserve, a decision which might, in his opinion, be come to at once. The questions to be decided were simple, and it required no Committee to tell them that no English youth should be reckoned on the Establishment who had not attained the age of 20 years; or that, in order to obtain good non-commissioned officers, there should be offered the inducements of a pension and higher pay. The Militia was never full, and the Committee, of which the Secretary of State for War had been Chairman, strangely came to the conclusion that because the Militia could not be kept up to the proper strength therefore the strength of the Militia must be reduced. But that was not the way in which the question should be dealt with. The Militia had always been the backbone of our military system, and it ought not to be left 2004 in this invertebrate state. It was to the Militia that they must look for an efficient Reserve; and it was for past and present Secretaries of State for War to put their heads together and to see if they could not patriotically come to some decision as to how the Militia could best be filled.
§ LORD ELCHOsaid, of course, if he was ruled out of Order he should not press the point. He believed it was from the Militia that the Army should derive its Reserve; and, therefore, he thought that his observations upon the Militia were strictly germane to the question before the Committee. Therefore, unless he was again told by the Chairman that he was in error, he would simply add that there was only one way to fill up the Militia—namely, to put in force the ancient Constitutional practice of the country, that every Englishman should be bound, if need be, to give compulsory service at home in the Militia. He wished the Committee not to run away with the idea that he was advocating this for the Army; it was intended for the Militia alone. They must come to this, sooner or later; and any other way of dealing with the matter was but "leather and prunella." His firm conviction was that, appoint a Committee this year or appoint a Committee next year, any other plan was simply beating about the bush.
§ COLONEL MUREwished to say one word only upon the point of the power of the Committee now sitting. It had been said that the Committee were restricted in their power, and the recommendations they were to make were to be limited to such proposals as would not require the interference of Parliament. He believed his statement would be confirmed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Loyd Lindsay), that the powers of that Committee were entirely unrestricted. Their instructions were to take evidence from all parts of the Empire on everything connected with the Militia and the Army, and their powers of Report were entirely and completely unlimited. Having already seen a good deal of that Committee—having been himself before it—his own impression certainly was that it was exceedingly earnest in the work 2005 which it had to do. He knew pretty well that a good deal of the evidence given before it had been—he did not wish to use too strong a word—or he would say, of the most distressing nature in regard to the general condition of the Army, and especially of the Infantry of the Line. Next year, when they met again to discuss the Report of that Committee, it would be very curious and instructive to obtain an explanation from the Secretary of State for War, and from the Secretary of State for War who preceded him, also, if possible, from the Inspector Generals of recruiting as to the invariably favourable accounts they had given the country of the Army. ["Order, order!"] He did not mean to say that any one single Gentleman had deceived the House wittingly; but he did say that the assurances of Secretary's of State in the House and Reports from the recruiting officers and other officials had been most misleading, and had led hon. Gentlemen and the public to form an opinion on the state of the Army which was utterly and completely mistaken. Although he deeply regretted the state of things which had been shown to exist by this Zulu War, he would say that those disclosures had one satisfactory side—they had opened the eyes of the country to the condition of the Army.
§ SIR HENRY HAVELOCKpointed out that there was great inconvenience in discussing a question of this sort when the Secretary of State for War was absent. He did not say that precedents could not be quoted in favour of it; but when a question embracing generally the whole scope of Army matters was under discussion, the presence of the Departmental Minister was almost necessary, in order to explain the position of affairs at the present time. The hon. and gallant Gentleman behind him (Colonel Mure) had said—and he entirely agreed with him—that as the Committee were now engaged in sifting all these questions, it was undesirable that a discussion on the matter should be raised in that House. It would have been more desirable if the hon. and gallant Gentleman, after expressing that opinion, had not taken the opportunity of producing a very strong impression on one side. If it were desirable not to discuss the question at all, it was still more undesirable that the question 2006 should be, to a certain extent, forestalled in public opinion by the one-sided arguments used by the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the noble Lord opposite (Lord Elcho). He had also had the honour of being examined as a witness before that Committee. He thought that its general composition was one to give great satisfaction to the country. It was composed, in some respects, of officers who had not had recent experience; but officers of that sort were represented on the Committee, both by officers of the rank of General, who had had great experience, and by two officers now holding commands of battalions, who were, perhaps, as well capable of giving opinion on all that took place as any two men in the Army. He thought the Committee and the public were to be congratulated on having these two officers on the Committee. He did not in the least agree with the noble Lord opposite, or the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as to the result of the deliberations of the Committee as far as they had gone. If the question were raised in that House in another shape, and at another time, he should be prepared to show in detail, and in the presence of the Secretary of State for War, that of all the allegations made as to the causes supposed to operate on the five battalions which left England, in what they might deem to be, in certain respects, an unsatisfactory condition, there was not one which had any bearing, even incidentally, on the system of short service. That service, no doubt, was co-incident in point of time with these defects; but they were not caused by short service. They could not be traced to short service, and short service was not in any way responsible for them. He would undertake to say that when that Committee had closed its proceedings there would not be made, in any one material respect, any considerable change in the lines on which the Secretary of State for War had been working for the last six years, following in the steps of his Predecessors. Neither as regarded the main features and principles of short service, nor as regarded the main features and principles of localization, would there be any essential change, when this question—the most important of any that could be referred to a Committee—had been thoroughly sifted and examined. His 2007 object in stating this was to correct an impression which might result, if what had been said by the hon. and. gallant Gentleman should be allowed to go forth to the country as to what was the tendency of the Committee, or what had been their proceedings up to the present time. He believed the special Vote at present before the Committee was the Reserve Vote; and, if he had had time, he should have liked to have said a few words to the Committee in regard to the Reserve. It would, however, be in the recollection of those who had paid attention to the matter in the last six years that one of the points brought before that House in 1865, 1866, and 1867, had been the unnecessary, and, as it appeared to him, the unwise, limitation of the Militia Reserve. It had been shown repeatedly, and expressly in the mobilization of last year, to be a most effective Reserve, both in point of numbers and in individual composition. He did trust, then, that one of the results of the Committee now sitting would be that the Militia Reserve would be appreciated on its right merits; that it would be extended in the way its friends would have desired; and that they would have its value as a Reserve, on all occasions when a sudden expansion of the Army became necessary, fully recognized. He did not see why, if considerable inducements were offered to the men—of which they had already shown themselves most anxious to avail themselves—the Militia Reserve should not soon be put in a position into which he and others had long tried to bring it, by which it would draw to the ranks of the Regular Army, in time of emergency, almost two-thirds of the effective force of the Militia. He believed that was a modification of the present system which might be very well carried out. The practical steps by which it might be obtained had been repeatedly explained, and it only remained for this Committee to give their practical effect and force. His real object in rising was to correct the impression which, he feared, was prevalent—that the short-service system had proved a complete failure, and that it had left them, practically, without an Army. The hon. and gallant Gentleman behind him (Colonel Mure) was a great enunciator of that idea; and he could not permit it to gain ground, at the eve of the Recess, without stating that 2008 not one of the defects pointed out in the battalions sent to the Cape was traceable in any way to the system of short service; but that every one of them—individually, severally, and collectively—was to be traced, and he had traced them, to practical defects in the administration of the system by those who, at present, sat on the Government Benches. In charging the officials, however, with such administration, he did not intend to allege anything more than that they had made mistakes. He believed the Secretary of State for War was most loyally anxious to carry out the system introduced by those who preceded him. There was no doubt, however, that an opinion prevailed among certain persons, in certain circles which had superficially examined the question, that the system had failed at a most serious juncture. Those who alleged that should recollect, to begin with, that during the last 12 months they had succeeded in carrying on two great wars on an entirely peace establishment. When it was alleged that battalions were sent out with from 360 to 370 men, it ought to be remembered that that was due not at all to the system, but to the acts of Her Majesty's Government. If they thought fit to send out 15 battalions of 800 men each, and, therefore, to reduce the Army by 12,000 men, they ought, then, to have come to the House and asked for additional men to keep up the Force. These faults, then, which were charged to the system, were really due to the act of the Government, and that was the whole foundation on which this alarming superstructure had been built, a superstructure for which there was no reason at all. On the other hand, there certainly were radical defects in our system which had been successfully pointed out every year; but they might have equally occurred with a system of long service, and he believed that our military system had never been in a more vigorous state than it was now. It must be remembered, however, that in order to make it successful they must carry it out thoroughly; and, for his part, he believed that it was absolutely necessary to begin with a large proportion of all the recruits of the age of 20 or 21. His contention was, they could not work a system of that kind without doing that.
§ LORD ELCHObegged to explain that his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Henry 2009 Havelock) entirely misunderstood him if he supposed that it was his intention to say anything against short service. He never had said a word against it. All that he had mentioned was, that by some means or another, by higher pay, or by pensions, or something of the same kind, they should induce men to remain longer in the Army than was possible under the short service system, in order to keep those men as non-commissioned officers.
§ COLONEL MUREsaid, with regard to the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman near him (Sir Henry Havelock), he believed it was possible to have a system of short service and a Reserve; but his contention was that it was not possible, with the class from which they recruited, to have efficient regiments on the six years' system. When Lord Cardwell's system was introduced it seemed to have been entirely forgotten that even Colonial wars required men of mature age and who were thoroughly disciplined, and that, to have these ready under a six years' system, the total strength must be increased. They were told that, under this short service system, they would offer such inducements to the public that they would get thoroughly efficient recruits; but this prophecy had not been fulfilled. Just before the Zulu War they had 51,000 men in the Infantry at home, and out of that number there were 20,000 men who were under one year's service, and there were 10,000 men over 35 years of age, a large proportion of whom were too old for active service, or claiming their discharge; so that, as a result, they only had the remainder with which to furnish the garrisons of the country, to send reinforcements to India, and carry on Colonial wars; hence the extreme defection of the regiments at this moment. He was not against the system of service with the Colours, and subsequently going to the Reserve. What he complained of—and he thought it was by far the greatest evil which existed in the Army at the present time—was a gradual slackening of discipline all through it, and a feeling of discontent pervading every branch of the Service. It was not that they did not get good recruits, considering their youth, nor that the number was insufficient—they got 30,000 last year, and of that number 4,600 disappeared, either by purchase or 2010 discharge, and they lost 1,700 by desertion. It was this enormous annual disappearance which exhausted the strength and efficiency, in itself a proof of discontent in the ranks. They could not stand such a drain as that with their present number. The discontent showed itself also in the difficulty to persuade the best privates to take the stripes, so that they had inferior men commanding men known to be superior to them. The same feeling pervaded every rank amongst the officers, and it was a corroding evil. Our system was purely a voluntary one, and the officers came from so high a class that they were, of course, loyal, and performed their duties well. Still, if this system went on, discontent would increase and time would show that it was possible to put too great a strain upon the loyalty of our officers, and the result would be either a gradual slackening of the whole conception and standard of discipline and efficiency, or else a disinclination among the superior ranks of society to accept commissions.
COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYhoped he would not be thought wanting in any respect, if he replied very shortly to the interesting speech made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, for he was bound to say they had diverged somewhat from the subject before the Committee. The hour was late, and the period of the Session was late; and he had, besides, another reason for shortness, that a very influential Committee of General Officers were now engaged in considering these very points. If hon. Members of knowledge and weight, on the subject had any desire to place their views before the Committee, either in writing or verbally, he was quite certain they would be most readily listened to, and their views accepted with the greatest deference. That, he thought, would be a sufficient reason for not continuing the discussion any longer. Still, he must notice one or two remarks that had been made by the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Mure). He had not gone so far as to say that there was a want of discipline or a feeling of discontent pervading the Army—he was sure that was not the meaning he intended to convey.
§ COLONEL MUREIf the hon. and gallant Gentleman will pardon me, that is absolutely within my meaning.
COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYreplied, that he could only say, then, that he entirely differed from the hon. and gallant Member. He did not think there was any such feeling in the Army, or that there was any want of discipline shown. The fact that the privates would not take the stripes was not any argument at all. A man was perfectly entitled to remain a private soldier if he chose, and was within his right in doing so.
§ COLONEL MUREsaid, he had not been understood. He did not complain that any want of discipline was shown in a man refusing the stripes. Nothing so absurd ever entered his mind. What he said was, when especially eligible privates refused the stripes and inferior ones were promoted, the result was that good men were commanded by inferior men, and that could not conduce to discipline.
§ MR. RYLANDSrose to Order. It appeared to him that the points raised were not exactly within the Vote for the Reserve, which they were then supposed to be discussing.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, that he had more than once reminded hon. Members of the point before the Committee, and had endeavoured, ineffectually, to stop a discussion, the whole of which appeared to him considerably out of Order.
COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYsaid, after such a statement from the Chairman he would not follow the point further, and he thought it was only right that the hon. and gallant Member should have an opportunity of disclaiming his words if he thought it necessary. The Reserve had been found fault with by some Members, who seemed to have forgotten that last year, when the Government called upon them, they came up to a man. That was a great surprise to some hon. Members, though it was not a surprise to him, for he always believed they would come. Still, however, they did join in the most extraordinary way. There was scarcely a man who did not answer to his name, and all of them were admirable soldiers, who, if they had gone abroad, would certainly have done good service. He might state, also, another fact. He knew, from his own knowledge, that a short time ago there was a proposition that members of the Reserve should be allowed to volunteer 2012 for active service abroad. The Secretary of State for War determined to call upon them; but he limited the number to 1,000, and he was certain that hon. Members would be surprised to hear that 940 men immediately presented themselves of their own accord. What more could they have done? He really thought this proved they might congratulate themselves on having in the Reserve a nucleus of an admirable system of Army organization.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENthought he was not out of Order in asking attention to one question raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He stated that some battalions had become so attenuated that they, at present, only numbered some 300 or 360 men on parade. He should like to know what course the Government had taken to fill up those battalions, and to keep them at their proper efficiency? If they had only 300 or 360 men in the battalion, the number of Reserve men they would be likely to get would become somewhat limited.
SIR HENRY HAYELOCKasked to be allowed to say one word strictly in explanation. When the Army Discipline and Regulation Bill was before them, he asked whether the Secretary of State for War was precluded from taking the services of Reserve men who were ready to come forward to serve, and what portion of the Reserve Acts had been incorporated with the Army Discipline and Regulation Bill? The Secretary of State for War replied that the Reserve Acts had only been incidentally incorporated in the Act. He pointed out this blot in the month of February. He distinctly charged it against the Government, as one of their acts of omission, that in consequence of their not having remedied it, Reserve men, who were willing and anxious to come, were prevented from, doing so. This blot still remained; and they were now, as in the month of February, absolutely without the means of taking any of these Reserve men. He should like to know what steps the Government proposed to take to remedy this? for he alleged, without the slightest fear of contradiction, that if they had taken steps that were in their power to fill up their battalions with men who were willing to volunteer there would never have been these attenuated battalions, which had been made a peg on which 2013 to hang this state of alarm in which the country had been ever since.
§ COLONEL MUREwanted to know if these 940 men had been taken for this year, or had been taken for the rest of their period of Reserve?
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEbegged to move to report Progress. It was useless to take these Votes while the Secretary of State for War was absent.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Major O'Beirne,)—put, and negatived.
§ Original Question again proposed.
COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYreplied, that the Reserve men were taken for the remainder of their 12 years' service. With regard to the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Havelock), the Government, if necessary, could ask for Reserves again in the same way as they had done recently.
§ MR. RYLANDSwished to point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this charge entirely disturbed the calculations on which this Vote was asked for. If 1,000 men were to be drafted from the Reserve into the Army, it altered the number on which the Estimates were based; and, therefore, the hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to alter his Estimates. He objected, altogether, to give Government more money than they were entitled to; and, therefore, he would suggest that the Vote, in its present shape, should be withdrawn, for the purpose of being brought in again at a lower amount. He could not go into the technical question which had been raised by hon. and gallant Gentlemen, whose experience gave them a right to speak on the subject; but he thought they might wait for the Report of the Committee which was now inquiring into the whole matter. He presumed it was utterly impossible they should have that Report this Session. He was very much inclined to agree with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Elcho) that the Committee was merely a hanging up of the whole question. During his own experience of the House they had always been having Committees on the Army, and there had always been a great impres- 2014 sion that the state of the Army was unsatisfactory. There were always prophets of evil; and now they were told that the Army, which ought to be in the most vigorous condition, was to undergo a searching analysis to see where the disease was from which it suffered. To him, who was not a member of the Service, it was extremely unsatisfactory to hear such complaints, from year to year, of the state of the Army, and yet to be called upon every year to join in voting an enormous sum for its maintenance. They voted something like £16,000,000 annually for the Army, and yet they were told it was in such a state that it was positively almost crumbling from weakness. When the Army Reserve was first established he was under the impression it was to be used in a time of great national emergency, and that by these means they would be able to fall back upon a large number of trained men. Yet now, under the pressure of a single paltry war, they were positively interfering with this Reserve; and if they proposed to enlist them the Reserve would not be found when they were wanted. They had already taken advantage of not less than 1,000 of them, and he protested altogether against a state of things under which it was necessary, in a small war like this in Africa, to draw on the Reserves.
§ COLONEL MUREsaid, they ought to add to the Army Votes a sum for these men, and to deduct £6,000 from the Reserve Vote. These men, whether they were sent to the Cape or served at home, were no longer in the Reserve. He should be glad if his hon. and gallant Friend could give him any information as to the state of the Reserves. Here it was reduced at a blow by 900 odd men, and yet they were voting for the number proposed when the Estimates were reduced, without knowing anything about the present condition of the Force.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, they were being asked for the Vote for men who did not belong to the Reserves, and, for his part, he did not think they ought to pay money unless it was actually expended. In order to bring the whole question before the Committee he would move to reduce the Vote by £6,000.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £197,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for the Pay, Allowances, &c. of a number of Army Reserve First Class, not exceeding 22,000, and of the Army Reserve Second Class, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880."—(Sir Patrick O'Brien.)
COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYsaid, his hon. Friend the Member for Burnley was so enamoured of the Reserve that he wished it should not be used. His objection to the Reserve was that when they required it they should have men upon whom they could call, and he was at a loss to understand the argument of the hon. Member. These men were there, and when they wanted them on an emergency, such as that which had taken place, they took the course pointed out by reasonable men, and asked for their services. Of course, if they had men in one place they could not have them in another. With regard to this question of pay, it was only a matter of Estimates. The Estimates were merely a calculation of the pay which would fall due; and if they did not pay these men on one Vote they would pay them on another. The matter was so simple, he did not think it worth making any alteration about, or to shift these men from the Reserve to the Army. Of course, it could be done if necessary; but it was not a matter which reasonable men would desire or wish to see carried out. As to the number of the Reserve, the process was more simple. They had only to deduct 940 from the Reserve Force. The figures were—111 Artillery, 642 Guards, 1,244 Bines, 13,719 Infantry, and 2,400 Cavalry.
§ COLONEL MUREremarked, that these were the figures for four months ago, and he wanted to know what the Forces consisted of now? Surely, when. Estimates were brought up for discussion, hon. Members should be informed of the condition of the Army. He wanted to know what had been added to the Reserve during these four months?
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENobserved, that under this Vote they took a charge for each of these 940 men at 4d. a-day; but if they went out to serve like ordinary soldiers the 4d. a-day would not be paid. But they would have to be paid at the ordinary valuation rate, and, consequently, he should think there would be a very considerable mixture of ac- 2016 counts. It seemed to him a most extraordinary course of procedure, and it would certainly be a more regular course of proceeding to have a Supplementary Vote in the ordinary way. If he could get no more satisfactory answer than that given to him he should certainly take a Division.
§ MR. RYLANDSsaid, according to the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, if they took 1,000 men from the Reserve and added them to the Army it would be necessary, if they reduced the Reserve Vote, to add it to the Army Vote. In that he was altogether wrong, for in the Army Vote they had a Vote for the total number of men, and could not increase that. The 1,000 men from the Reserve simply filled, up vacancies in the ranks of the Regular Forces, as he took it for granted that the Secretary of State for War had not attempted to employ more men than were voted. Further, he might explain that he wished the Reserve men to be used in a proper emergency; but the emergency contemplated was a great national one, and not the state of things recently existing. The Army ought to be in such a state that they ought not to go to the Reserves at all, except for an emergency which was worthy of being called really national. They never ought to resort to the Reserves on a little pressure, which ought not to have arisen if the Army had been efficient.
§ MR. WHITWELLpointed out that there must be some misunderstanding as to this Vote. They voted a certain number of men for the Reserves; but did not say the men were always to be the same. That number was suddenly changed; because Reserve men volunteered into the regiments; consequently, when the 1,000 men were taken off for this purpose there was an influx of others coming in after five years' service.
§ MAJOR O'BEIRNEpointed out that it was quite useless to have Cavalry Reserves when they really had Reserves in each regiment. In most Cavalry regiments they had about 500 men, with only 300 horses, and, therefore, there was no need for any Reserves.
§ SIR HENRY HAVELOCKtrusted they might be allowed to proceed with this Vote, thinking the discussion on it had taken quite long enough. The number of Reserves he found, in July, was 16,959; 2017 but that number varied from day to day. Secondly, what had been pointed out as inaccurate was not so, for the Vote taken at the beginning of the year would cover the actual number who joined. He thought the Government had done very wisely and properly in taking these men from the Reserves; and he apprehended they were intended to reinforce the Army in Zululand, if necessity arose. He was surprised, however, at one remark of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, for he took credit to the Department for taking these men in the month of June, when he had urged upon the Government that they should take them ever since the month, of February. In that month they would have been of some use, and it was then they ought to have taken them.
§ SIR PATRICK O'BRIENasked leave to withdraw his Amendment, as he was satisfied with the explanation of the hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. Whitwell).
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ COLONEL MUREsaid, it was most important they should know the exact number of the Reserves. They were stated at 16,000, and now they had deducted 1,000 men; so that in 1878–9 they were stated to be 19,000 men, and previously they were put at 22,000. But if there were 19,000 last year, even allowing for the 1,000 taken away, what had become of the 2,000 difference between those figures and the 16,000 estimated for?
§ MR. PARNELLmoved to reduce the Vote of £165,000, the payment of the Army Reserve, Class 1, by £25,000. He said, that the Vote had always been loosely drawn, and exemplified the practice of the War Office, which always estimated for a larger sum of money than it was likely to spend. The consequence was that the War Office had always a good deal of money in hand wherewith to embark, without the consent of Parliament, in little wars. He had no doubt that a great deal of the cost of the Zulu War had been paid for, not out of the Vote of Credit passed at the commencement of the Session—for that must have been spent long since—but out of the balances which the War Office had at its disposal as the result of these excess Votes. In 1877–8,15,000 of the First Class Army Reserve were esti- 2018 mated for, and in January, 1878, only 11,258 were actually in existence. In 1878–9 19,000 men were estimated for, and in 1879 there were only 15,000 in existence. In 1879, 22,000 were estimated for. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War knew he would never get that number, and it was perfectly certain that it was impossible for him to obtain it. He, therefore, proposed to cut down the Estimates to the proportion of men the Government were likely to have. He found, from the Auditor General's Report, pages 38 and 39, that in 1876–7 only £47,000 was spent out of £87,000 voted in that year. It followed, therefore, that if they cut down the Vote by £25,000 the War Office would still have another £25,000 which it could not use; £140,000 would be left, which would be £10,000 more than the War Office could possibly spend.
§ Motion made, and Question put," That Sub-head B, £165,000, Pay of Army Reserve, be reduced by £25,000."—(Mr. Parnell.)
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes4; Noes 64: Majority 60.—(Div. List, No. 204.)
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§
(12.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £392,400, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Commissariat, Transport, and Ordnance Store Establishments, Wages, &c, that will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, he wished to d raw attention to this Vote, which dealt largely with the salaries of two Departments—the Commissariat and Ordnance Stores.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished to report Progress he would not oppose; but he wished to speak on this Vote.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, if there was any probability of getting the Vote he would be very glad to take it; but he was under an honourable engagement not to sit much after 6 o'clock. If, therefore, they were likely to take this Vote without much 2019 discussion he would go on; but if it would take any great amount of time it would be better to report Progress. He would, however, leave the matter in the hands of the House.
§ MAJOR NOLANsaid, he would make his remarks very brief, and as he was likely to be called away next week he should be glad if the Vote could be taken then. The Ordnance Store Department was a very important one, for it had to supply the Army with ammunition, guns, and, in fact, everything except food, yet they had been very badly treated for a very long time. The majors averaged from 28 to 32 years' service, while officers of the rank of captain averaged from 12 to 28 years. Their appeals had been repeatedly allowed to be fair, and some time ago the corps was amalgamated with the Control. Their grievances, however, were not fully considered, The Control was afterwards broken up; and now, although they stood alone, all the promises given them of improving their prospects had not been carried out. A Committee was appointed to consider the matter, and, very strangely, the only result of their action was to nominate two of their members to very good appointments. One was appointed as the Director of Transports and Supplies, and the other as Secretary of the Service. The Committee, however, reported that these officers were really very badly treated, and that promotion was unduly delayed. As a rule, 20 years' service was enough for promotion; while nearly all the majors in this corps had served for 28 years. They had been promised that a Warrant should be brought out and promulgated; but the promise did not state that they should be put on a perfect parity with the Commissariat. These officers thought that they ought to be placed exactly in the same position as the Commissariat. They had not to deal much with money; on the other hand, the Store Department, as was well understood by those who knew anything of the Army, had to keep stores which were quite as valuable as the money intrusted to the Commissariat. The officers objected also to being called store - keepers, which gave them a bad position. On the creation of this important Department, many Artillery officers joined it in the expectation that it would be a military body, with very high posi- 2020 tions attached. But there was still this real and tangible grievance in regard to promotion, and he had hoped something at least would have been done.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILadmitted that there were reasons for the complaints with regard to this Department, and he could only say that his noble and gallant Friends, the former Secretary of State for War, and the present Secretary of State for War, as well as himself, were always anxious to remove these grievances which, in fairness to himself and his Friends, he must say they found existing when they came into Office. He knew that the position this corps occupied raised a feeling of soreness in many respects which it was very right to remove. It was quite correct to say there were several Committees who had endeavoured to come to some arrangement with a view to facilitate promotion. He did not propose to go through all their recommendations; but it would be sufficient to say that, at least, they had decided that the Commissariat should be put on a military basis, and eventually, if that proved successful, and if they got officers and non-commissioned officers such as they expected, the Ordnance Store would follow. It would be a question of time, of course, for they must see how this plan worked. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had mentioned a list of complaints and grievances of some officers, and certainly some of them had existed for a very long time. But he believed that they arose very much from the abolition of the connection with the Control in 1875. Before that time, the two Services being together in one body, the promotion of the officers was, no doubt, facilitated, and they had a greater chance of promotion. Since the separation was made, the Secretary of State for War had appointed two Committees to see how far these grievances could be removed, and their recommendations were still under consideration. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the answers he had given on this subject, he would find he had said that the officers of the Ordnance Store would be very nearly—he had used those words, but they gave a very wrong impression—he should have said, on all fours, with the officers of the Commissariat. The words he used, and which he very much regretted, he saw had produced an impression that the 2021 officers of the Ordnance Store would be in some material or slight degree different from Commissariat officers; whereas they would not, in any degree, or in the slightest degree, be different, either as regarded pay, pension, or promotion. Considering the way in which the officers were brought into the Ordnance Store Department, however, it would be impossible, in individual instances, to make the promotion of all individuals exactly the same. It was the desire, however, of the Government to make them, as nearly as possible, the same, and that was why he used the words, "very nearly." If he had said "on all fours," he would have been, practically, more correct and accurate. As to the officers being called store-keepers, the term was a very ancient one, and it was only within the last 20 years that any fault had been found with it. That might arise from the fact that stores, generally, had spread all over the world; but, still, he did not think the word "storekeeper" was associated in anyway with the idea of co-operation. This term had always been used; but he knew that the feeling was as represented, and he had always felt there was ground for complaint. If, therefore, anyone would suggest to him an equally good or better term, which would not interfere with the Commissariat Department, he would use his interest to get it adopted. He did not hold to the use of the word as strictly necessary; and if anyone could discover some other term which would not produce confusion he should be very glad to adopt it.
§ COLONEL ARBUTHNOTthought it would be scarcely fair for him to move a reduction of the Vote at that time; and, therefore, he would defer the observations he wished to make to another stage.
§ MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he had listened with great care to the speech just made on this subject, and was very much interested in it. If anyone wished to quote an admirable example of the obstruction of Public Business, he could not give a better one than the system of the Ordnance Department. It was only a little better now than the condition in which it was discovered to be immediately after the Crimean War. There were "young" officers in it whose average was 30 years' service. No attention whatever had been paid to their 2022 grievances. It was always the same story—"At an early date," "Very soon," "The utmost possible consideration." These phrases had been going on for a quarter of a century. He thought the subject very important. A little more time ought to be given to it, especially as his hon. 'and gallant Friend (Major Nolan) had shortened his remarks very much. On the efficiency of the Ordnance Department depended the efficiency of the Service; and, therefore, he thought they had better move to report Progress. These officers had been treated in a very bad way. He did not blame the present Government especially for it, for all the Secretaries of State for War for the last 12 years had gone on in pretty much the same way, and had made the same declaration which they had just heard from the Government Bench. He wanted to see the subject treated a little more fully and fairly, and he begged to move to report Progress.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sitagain,"—(Mr. O'Donnell,)—put, and negatived.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ SIR HENRY HAVELOCKdid not wish to keep the Committee, but he did hope this matter might be brought to a decision very speedily. He was not speaking without some right, because it had been his unhappy lot to bring this subject five or six times before his noble Friend; and, as yet, not much progress had been made. The scientific inquiries in connection with the Army became more technical every year. There was no branch of the Service in which special technical education of very broad scope was more important, and there was nobody better aware of these facts than his noble Friend. During this Session he had repeatedly heard that this matter was receiving the utmost consideration; and now, when they were going to separate for several months, the matter did not seem to have progressed one inch. The noble Lord admitted that many of the officers were of very long service, and yet the only expression he gathered from his speech was not encouraging, but rather the reverse; for he understood him to purposely qualify the hopes he had given rise to before. The general impression 2023 left upon his mind was that, instead of the hopes of these officers having advanced nearer consummation, they were further off than before. He trusted, before the Session closed, the Government would have offered, to bring up this Report, which had been wandering between the War Office and the Treasury; and that it would not be allowed finally to take up its bed in some pigeonhole, but that it would be acted upon. Not only were these officers nearly on all-fours, but they were, in all respects, the same as the Commissariat Service; and, therefore, he hoped these officers, whose promotion had been so long delayed, would at last find some progress made towards the fulfilment of their desires.
§ MR. CALLANappealed to hon. Members to take the discussion of this Vote on the Report, as it was now past the time when they ought to report Progress. He moved to report Progress.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Callan.)
§ MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYobserved, that it only remained to impress on the Government what had been put forward by his hon. and gallant Friend (Major Nolan). It was perfectly astonishing to him to see the anxiety displayed by these officers for military titles. He did not appreciate their anxiety; but it certainly was very strong, and as they gave good reasons for their demands he felt bound to support it. He did not see why they should not have them, as other non-combatant branches possessed them. The officers of this Department would be largely chosen from the combatant officers; for an officer, after five years in the Artillery, would have power to go to the Ordnance Store Department, and then to go back to the Artillery if he chose. If the two Services of Ordnance and Commissariat were to be so mixed up, there was a very good reason for giving them the same title.
§ MAJOR NOLANthought one or two points in the speech of the Surveyor General of the Ordnance (Lord Eustace Cecil) were unsatisfactory. The proposal was to try this experiment, first with the Commissariat, and, if it succeeded, to extend it to the Ordnance Stores. The result would be that many 2024 Commissariat officers would be put above Ordance Store officers of the same date. He was afraid the officers of the Commissariat were more organized, and belonged to better rank; and, in consequence, the Ordnance Store Department had been put back. He could not see why the Commissariat and the Ordnance Store Departments were at first put together, and then broken up. Surely, the Ordnance Stores should have first place, for they had charge of the gunpowder and the ammunition, while the Commissariat were merely civil officers. For his part, he would make both combatant branches. In his opinion, by giving this preference to the Commissariat, they did not benefit that Department so much, while they seriously injured the Ordnance Store Department by making them the only Civil Department of the Army. The grievances of these officers had always been acknowledged, ever since 1855; but because many of them were not men of position, or high rank, their case had been put off, and they had not been promoted. Though he believed there was not much alacrity shown in redressing these grievances, he did not see, also, why, instead of being called "store-keepers," they could not be called "Officers of the Ordnance Corps." Certainly, the objection to calling them "store-keepers" was very strong. No doubt, they had a great deal to do with stores; but, still, the title was very objectionable, and the desire for a change was very desirable. Justice would be done very easily to these gentlemen, and at no cost to the Treasury, by putting them on a military footing.
§ MR. CALLANsaid, he had not intended to move to report Progress. He had only intended to suggest that this discussion could not finish then.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. O'DONNELLpointed out that the object desired could very easily be obtained. All that was asked was that these gentlemen should not be called by a name which, practically, identified them with general shopkeepers in the Colonies. It was a point of grievance with these officers that the Government seemed actually rather to enjoy the plight in which these officers were, and to laugh at the idea that they were likely to be mistaken for shopkeepers. He did not 2025 think that was the position which the Government ought to take up. It would be exceedingly easy to amend this, and the title was certainly an incorrect one; because it seemed as if these officers were mixed up with tinned meats, and biscuits, and vegetables, with which they had nothing to do at all.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILhoped the discussion would not go further, and that when hon. and gallant Gentlemen saw the Warrant, both they and the Ordnance Store and the Commissariat Department would be satisfied. It had not been published, in consequence of what had happened at the Cape, and elsewhere; but he might explain that there was no intention to give titles to the civilian officers of the Commissariat, or to put them on a different footing whatever to the Ordnance Stores. He could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it had been his strong desire to keep a strict impartiality between the two branches, in order that neither one nor the other should enjoy advantages in pay, pension, or promotion.
§ MR. O'DONNELLasked whether they could know when the Warrant would be issued? It was complained that they brought on the discussion before the Warrant was issued; but as they did not know when it was coming out the discussion was certainly necessary.
§ LORD EUSTACE CECILreplied, that it would be published as soon as some trifling matters between the War Office and the Treasury were settled. It would be published almost immediately.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;
§ Committee to sit again upon Mondaynext.