HC Deb 01 August 1879 vol 248 cc1918-32

SUPPLY—considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £140,530, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of various Miscellaneous Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £139,530, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of various Miscellaneous Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880."—(Mr. A. Moore.)

MR. A. MOORE

said, that they were not asking the Government to increase the salaries, but only to make inquiries with regard to the Roman Catholic chaplains. They asked that the Roman Catholic chaplains might be granted proper facilities to discharge their functions. He thought that that was a very reasonable request. He should also like to know whether the Minute of the 7th of June last had been carried out? for the evidence as to the manner in which it had been carried out was anything but satisfactory. Unless they received a satisfactory explanation on these points, he should certainly move to report Progress.

THE CHAIRMAN

Does the hon. Gentleman move to report Progress?

MR. A. MOORE

No, Sir.

MR. W. H. SMITH

could assure the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. A. Moore) that every possible facility was given to the chaplains of every denomination to discharge their duties. He thought that an assurance to that effect had been given when the Vote was last under discussion. He was not aware that there was any absence of those facilities of which the hon. Gentleman complained; and he was under the impression that the gentlemen occupying the position of chaplains were satisfied. He need not refer to communications that passed between those persons and the Admiralty, further than to assure the hon. Gentleman that no complaints had been made by any gentleman holding that position that he had not received every facility in the discharge of his duties. If the hon. Member would bring to his notice any case in which proper facilities had not been given, the matter would receive his attention, with a view to remove the grievance complained of. It was his duty—and it must be the duty of every person occupying the position he had the honour to hold—to afford assistance to the clergymen of every denomination to visit members of their Church, and properly perform their duty.

MAJOR NOLAN

wished to bring before the notice of the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of appointing Roman Catholic chaplains on board troopships. Occasionally, it might happen that there were as many Roman Catholics on board a troopship as members of.the Established Church. Sometimes 25 per cent of the regiments were Catholics, and some regiments contained a great many more Catholics than others. It must occasionally happen that there were more Catholics on board a troopship than Protestants; the number of Catholics must sometimes amount to between 400 and 500. He should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would not think it desirable to send Catholic chaplains with troopships containing that number of Catholics? The right hon. Gentleman very fairly promised that where the number of Catholics exceeded 300 or 400 on board a troopship, then a Roman Catholic chaplain should be sent. Of course, if there were no Catholics, or very few, on board, he saw no reason why the regular custom should be departed from. But, on the other hand, if the number of Catholics on board was great, he did not see why a Roman Catholic chaplain should not be sent as a regular thing.

MR. GRAY

said, he was anxious to ascertain what had been done between that year and the last to remedy the grievance which the right hon. Gentleman had acknowledged to exist? He should like to be informed what changes had been made between last year and the present in accordance with the promise which had been made to the House. He did not mean to impute to the right hon. Gentleman any intention not to carry out his promise in an entirely bonâ fide manner, and, doubtless, it had been carried out to the best of his ability. But, still, he should like to ascertain exactly what changes had been made to remedy the grievance which was admitted to exist?

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, that the Admiral commanding-in-chief in the Mediterranean had acknowledged the receipt of the Circular from the Admiralty requesting him to provide religious ministrations for any considerable number of men of the Roman Catholic religion when they were for a long time away from port. The Admiral said that he would Carry out the directions of the Admiralty; but that necessity had not arisen for providing special services for the Roman Catholics on board the squadron. No doubt, it was exceedingly rare for a vessel to be long away from a port where the services of a Roman Catholic priest were not available; but the orders which had been issued by the Admiralty would, no doubt, be faithfully carried out. The hon. Gentleman would see that the undertaking that had been given on the part of the Government had been fulfilled. Of course, it was impossible to place a second chaplain on board the same ship. With regard to the troopships, the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) must remember that the accommodation for officers on board them was limited. The troopships running between England and India, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman knew, called at Gibraltar, Malta, and at Suez, where the Roman Catholic soldiers could be landed, if they expressed a desire to do so, and could receive the ministrations of their religion. Whether soldiers or sailors it was the duty of the Admiralty to afford them every proper facility for attending the ministrations of their religion. But he could not undertake to provide a Roman Catholic chaplain for every ship and for every troopship that sailed. Everything that he could, do to meet the wishes of hon. Gentlemen to provide for the faith of their fellow-countrymen he would do; but he did not wish to create false impressions, and he did not think it possible to carry Roman Catholic chaplains on board troopships.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, that on some troopships there might be 400 or 500 Catholics on board, and he thought that they were entitled to a chaplain. He did not propose putting a chaplain on board a troopship as a permanancy; but it would be possible to send them on board whenever required. Many chaplains would be quite willing to go for nothing, if they were given the passage. The Government had only to hold up its finger, and plenty would offer themselves. With regard to accommodation, there was no difficulty, because every troopship accommodated from 120 to 150 officers. If the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to meet the wishes of hon. Members, he (Major Nolan) thought that it would be easy for him to provide services for troops on board ship, where 400 or 500 of them were Roman Catholics. Probably, where there were less than that number on board, it would not be possible to provide the chaplains. With regard to what had been said about troops obtaining the ministrations of Catholic priests at places where the vessel called, it would be impossible for a large number of troops to be landed, or, if landed, it would be impossible to get them back again. They must either have services on board, or they must do without them altogether.

MR. PARNELL

wished to know whether any chaplains had been appointed under the Order issued by the Admiralty? The right hon. Gentleman informed them that the Order directed a chaplain should be provided in certain circumstances; but he did not say whether any chaplains had been provided under those circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had also said that he could not undertake to provide chaplains for troopships in any case; but would he say that it was his intention to provide chaplains for troopships in certain cases?

MR. GRAY

said, that the meaning of the despatch of the Admiral was, that he would be ready to obey the directions, but there was no necessity for them. On a previous occasion the right hon. Gentleman had said that owing to the want of accommodation—a very extraordinary reason, considering the size of the ships—he could not undertake to provide chaplains for every ship; but he used the expression that he would provide chaplains for every squadron. He (Mr. Gray) was anxious to ascertain what chaplains had been provided, under the Order which had been issued; or, if any had been provided at all? It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to give them an assurance that something should be done; but they would like something a little more definite. It was a very simple matter to give them the information which they required.

MR. W. H. SMITH

observed, that the Commander-in-chief had orders to embark a Roman Catholic chaplain with the squadron, under circumstances which were indicated in the Circular. In reply, the Admiral had said that— The Minute of the 17th June, 1878, had been carried out, but that the squadron had never teen absent from a port where the services of a Roman Catholic priest were available except for a very short time, and it had not been necessary to embark the Roman Catholic chaplain. He (Mr. W. H. Smith) had distinctly said in that House that he would provide Roman Catholic chaplains for the Fleet when they were away from places where the services of Roman Catholic priests were available. An Order to that effect had been carried out, but the circumstances had not arisen in which the squadron were away from the port for any considerable period; and it had not, therefore, been necessary to embark a Roman Catholic chaplain. If the circumstances had arisen in which it had been directed that a chaplain should be embarked, then the Admiral would have been liable to severe censure for not carrying out the Order; but that had not been the case.

MR. SULLIVAN

could understand that the circumstances exactly contemplated in the Admiralty Minute had not arisen; but he should like to know what arrangements were made by the Admiral for the spiritual needs of the Roman Catholic seamen when the Fleet was in the Black Sea? Did he arrange for the services of the chaplain, and was the payment of that gentleman included in the Vote for the services of those gentlemen who performed chaplains' duty on board ship? He was unable to understand the Vote. They found a Vote for chaplains' services rendered by Catholic clergymen somewhere in the East. With respect to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan), he (Mr. Sullivan) might observe that he had received letters from persons who had gone out to India by the transport ships, which letters spoke very strongly of the necessity of having some such provision on board large transports as the hon. and gallant Gentleman recommended. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would, perhaps, do him the justice to say that he had abstained from appearing unreasonably to press him about the matter ever since he had given the House the undertaking, on which, personally speaking, he had the most implicit reliance—that accommodation should be provided for the Roman Catholics in certain cases. That implicit reliance in the right hon. Gentleman he still had; but he would suggest to him that it might be necessary to see that the Orders which he had issued were carried out.

MR. O'DONNELL

was willing to give the right hon. Gentleman every credit for his good intentions; but, so far as the facts went, they found that there had been no Roman Catholic chaplain appointed to the British Fleet during the recent emergency in the East, although there would have been a war if certain contingencies had arisen. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty did not propose to place Roman Catholic chaplains on board transport ships going out to India, although there might be 500 to 600 or more Catholic soldiers on board. So far as results went, it must be admitted that, up to the present, the promises made had not come to anything. He thought it very desirable, both in the interests of discipline and for the good of the men, that Catholic priests should be placed on board transports when many Catholic soldiers were carried. It was a total misconception of the Catholic religion to suppose that the whole matter ended with going to church on an occasional Sunday. When there was such extensive accommodation for officers on board the transports, he could not see a shadow of reason for refusing the services of a Catholic priest to 400 or 500 Catholic soldiers when going to and from India. The fact was that there was something like prejudice to the presence of Roman Catholic chaplains on board these ships on the part of those who were responsible for the management of the vessels. For his part, he could not see why the services of Catholic chaplains should be refused. The services of a Catholic priest might often be required by the Catholic soldiers on board the ships, and he did not see why they should not be at their disposal. Between the two cases of religion and of the cat, it seemed to him that the influence of religion would be a better deterrent from misconduct, and that it ought to be preferred. He entered into the spirit of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), and he was prepared to give the Government credit for wishing to deal fairly with the Catholic soldiers; but, beyond all question, they would not deal fairly with, them with respect to the services of a Roman Catholic chaplain if they refused the services of a Roman Catholic priest to 500 soldiers going out to India.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

thought that they required some system by which the ministrations of Catholic clergymen to Catholic sailors should be better secured than at present. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty to appoint five or six Catholic chaplains to the Navy, and to send them out when necessity arose. If he did that, he would give the Roman Catholics a much greater confidence than they at present possessed in the impartiality of the system. He did not think that such a provision would involve great expense. If the right hon. Gentleman communicated with the Roman Catholic Bishops of this country, they would place at his disposal, at short notice, four or five gentlemen who could perform the duties, and who he might be able to dispense with when not required. They should draw some pay when not on active service, and be placed on full pay when on active service. That system would give the Roman Catholic clergyman some status. If their services were recognized as a part of the religious service of the Navy, it would go far to meet the desires of all concerned.

MR. A. MOORE

said, that the information which he had received led him to a different conclusion to that which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith) had put before the House. Apart from the question of troopships was the question of appointing Roman Catholic chaplains on invalid ships. Ships were sent home to England laden with sick men, and it was a hardship to them not to have the services of a chaplain of their religion in their last hours. It was not a question of appointing new chaplains, it was only a matter with regard to the existing Roman Catholic chaplains, who had at present no means of exercising their functions. On Sunday men were sent to church; but no facilities were afforded to the priest to visit and attend to their flocks. In other religions, the Queen's Regulations gave facilities and prescribed the duties of the chaplain. The chaplains of the Royal Navy of the Established Church were distinctly recognized, and given facilities for exercising their functions; but no corresponding facilities were given to Roman Catholics. He thought that the Roman Catholics were treated in a very high-handed manner. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty was very anxious to take Supply; but he thought that, before the Vote was taken, they ought to have an assurance that further facilities should be given and further means taken to remedy the grievance of which they complained. He was as anxious as the right hon. Gentleman to facilitate the progress of Public Business, and so were his other hon. Friends; but unless the right hon. Gentleman would give an assurance, or appoint a Committee to consider the matter, he must move to report Progress.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, that if something were not done in the direction of removing their grievance they would have an opportunity of discussing the question again. He could see no difficulty in appointing Roman Catholic chaplains to large vessels carrying 800 or 900 troops, of whom some 500, as in the case of the 88th and 83rd Regiments, were Catholics. If a vessel were going a long distance, men were not allowed to land for the reason mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan), and he (Sir Patrick O'Brien) did not see what possible objection there could be to allowing them to receive religious ministrations on board. He thought it was a matter of right on the part of soldiers in large troopships to have the services of a priest of their religion. They knew that there was ample accommodation on board these vessels, and that question did not need, therefore, to be considered in the matter. He could see no reason why the Admiralty should not accede to the suggestion which had been made.

MR. PARNELL

said, that it was clear that Roman Catholic soldiers going out to India, or sailors serving on board ship, had had no additional facilities for obtaining the services of ministers of their own religion. Under these circumstances, they could only say that the Order issued by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty was entirely illusory, and that it was not calculated to meet the exigencies of the case which, had been put forward from time to time. But he thought that they were entitled to something more than mere general promises from the right hon. Gentleman. It was obvious that the plan he proposed had been a failure, and did not meet the requirements of the case, and he thought they might fairly ask the right hon. Gentleman to propose some new scheme. They urged that there ought to be Roman Catholic chaplains on board the large troopships going out to India, on which great numbers of Roman Catholics were carried. In Ireland the services of the priest were much valued, and it was usual, if a man were ill or met with an accident, for the priest to see him before the doctor. They knew what extreme importance many of the humbler classes of Irish attached to the ministrations of a clergyman of the Roman Catholic Church; yet they sent these men out long voyages, and many of them must die without the benefits of the last consolations of their religion. It was much harder for Roman Catholics to die without the consolations of their religion than it was for members of other Churches. In these circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would see that the mere stoppage of a vessel at such a place as Aden did not give sufficient opportunity for the men to obtain the ministrations of their religion, which they ought to have as the voyage proceeded. Perhaps, at the very time that the services of the priest were available, they were not required, and vice versâ. He did not think that the right hon. Gentleman perfectly understood the position, otherwise he would secure the ministrations of their religion to Roman Catholics on board troopships. He begged to move that Progress be reported, and that the Chairman ask leave to sit again. It was manifest that they could not proceed until they had given the Government an opportunity of considering the matter. By the time that the Committee sat again, the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would have had time to investigate the question.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Parnell)

MR. SULLIVAN

begged to repeat exactly what it was that they did require, and what it was they thought should be carried out. They asked that whenever there were 300 men, or thereabouts, in the squadron belonging to the Catholic religion, the men in the different ships should have the advantage of the services of a Catholic chaplain so long as the squadron remained together. He might point out that he and some of his hon. Friends were not quite clear about the statement from the Admiral. His statement was, that they were never away from a port where the services of a local Catholic clergyman were available. If he was to understand by that, that immediately on the arrival of the squadron at any port a clergyman on shore was communicated with, and put at once into the position of chaplain to the squadron, they would be quite satisfied, and thought that was a reasonable carrying out of the promise given to them. But if, on the other hand, it only meant that the Admiral, or one of his captains, was in a position to send on shore for a priest, if his services were required, that was very different. He did not quarrel at all with the Instruction; all he wished to know was as to the way in which it was carried out. They did not merely want that if a man fell from the mast-head, for instance, and injured himself, that a priest should be sent for for him; but that these 300 or 400 Catholic seamen should have a clergyman attending them in the position of chaplain, ready to attend men, even in health, if they required it. They all knew, whatever their religious views, that the visits of their ministers, even if they were not in any immediate danger of death, was something to which they, as Christian men, attached extreme importance. If the chaplain did thus attend the men, he thought, as far as he was concerned, that the Instruction of the First Lord had been very fairly carried out. But if, on the other hand, there was merely the power, or the intention, to send for a priest from the shore, when he was required, that was a totally different thing. He hoped, however, that, in any case, they might not need to report Progress; but that the Vote would be finished at once. This religious question, he might say, was a very sore question with the men actually on service. He had no desire to en- cumber the Votes with Motions; but he might mention that he had had letter upon letter from men who complained of the absence of a chaplain on board the large transports, for instance, which were constantly going to and from India. There were very often 600 or 700 Catholics on board, and then the absence of a chaplain was most sorely felt. He could not forget, however, the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met him when he last brought the question before the House. He could not forget that he was met most readily, and in the fairest possible way; and, therefore, he hoped that this question of the transports would be satisfactorily considered.

MR. W. H. SMITH

acknowledged the extreme fairness of the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), and said that, to the best of his belief, the arrangement made last year had been carried out in the sense and in the manner he had suggested. He would, however, make further inquiry, in order to test the fact; because it was the desire of the Admiralty, and of every officer in the Navy, that the consolations of their religion should be afforded to men of the Roman Catholic faith just as they were afforded to men of any other religious faith, whenever they desired to have them. He might just say for himself that, some time ago, a case came to his knowledge in which an officer was severely censured for not having sent for a Roman Catholic priest when a man who was ill desired it. The vessel arrived in port, and circumstances rendered it probable that the man would not recover, and it came to the knowledge of the Admiralty that a Roman Catholic priest was not sent for. The Admiralty, therefore, severely censured that officer. As to the transports, he had said over and over again that he desired to afford facilities to these men for the performance of their religious duties; but he must point out that this was the first time the question had been definitely brought before him with regard to the transports, and that he had not absolute control over them. The ships themselves belonged to the India Office. The men, or rather the soldiers on board, were under the control of the War Department, and the men who worked the ships were, of course, sailors under the Admiralty. He did not know whether it would be possible to put a chaplain on board any of those ships; but he would only repeat that he would do everything in his power to meet any necessities which existed, honestly believing that the men had a right to demand that these desires of theirs should be complied with, and that their religious aspirations should be met. He could not, as the hon. and learned Member would see, give an absolute engagement, which he might not be able afterwards to perform; but he would do all that was in his power, and he would consider, with his Colleagues, how what was desired could be done.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, that, for his part, he would be quite content if the right hon. Gentleman would say that where there was a certain number of Catholics on board a ship—say 250, or some such number—an endeavour would be made to procure chaplains. He would not suggest any number; but he would say about 300. Whenever, however, there was a sort of approach to a definite number, an effort should be made to send a chaplain on board. The difficulties raised by the First Lord of the Admiralty really did not exist, because, as a fact, the whole of the management of these transports was exclusively in the hands of the Admiralty. The only difficulty would be to get a return of the number of Catholics going in a particular ship, and he could get that with the greatest ease from the War Office. He knew, of course, that a chaplain could not always be sent, because a draft might be ordered at the last moment, or a larger number of men than was expected might arrive; but they would all be satisfied if he would do his best for sending a Roman Catholic chaplain with a certain number. There were often very much smaller congregations than 250 persons in England very fully provided with religion. These five regular transports, too, were very well known, just as well known as any five parishes in London, and quite as much before the country. He therefore hoped something definite would be done in the matter.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

The difficulty of my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty I take to be this—that this Question which is put to him he is unable to answer, because he speaks for his own Department only, and he is unable or unauthorized to speak for other Departments. But I can say for myself and my Colleagues in the Government that we regard the proposal which has been made by the hon. and gallant Member (Major Nolan), and the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), as framed in a spirit decidedly fair and reasonable, and we shall do our best to get it carried out.

MR. A. MOORE

did not wish to press his Motion unduly. He was certainly received with a certain amount of indifference and hauteur the other night; but after the candid manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met him, with that courtesy, also, which he always showed, he should not wish to press the matter further.

MR. PARNELL

also felt very much obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the very candid statement he had just made, and thought the Motion should be withdrawn.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £139,530, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of various Miscellaneous Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

pointed out that there was a considerable increase in the loss by exchange. It had increased from £300 last year to £2,000 this, and next year it was £1,700. Had any change been made in this matter? He should be glad, also, if the First Lord of the Admiralty would explain the increase in the passage monies?

MR. W. H. SMITH

replied, that no change whatever had been made in the mode of paying the men; and, in this matter, his hon. Friend was aware they followed the directions of the Treasury. He believed that the fall in the price of silver had considerably affected the payments in China and Japan. The increase in the passage money was due to the fact that ships had been re-commissioned abroad rather more than was usual. As the hon. Gentleman was aware, there was a considerable saving in re-commissioning ships abroad, especially when they were at distant stations like Hong Kong. That was the reason for the increase in the passage monies.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

observed, that he had no objection whatever to this re-commissioning of ships abroad, and thought, on the contrary, it was a very good system. He understood, however, that it had been given up in consequence of objections which, in his opinion, were very improperly raised to it.

MR. WHITWELL

asked, if the First Lord of the Admiralty would explain the amount granted for Portsea Pier? Was that the first of a series of charges, or was it one amount?

MR. W. H. SMITH

replied, that this amount was asked for in pursuance of a very old arrangement.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) £210,250, for Freight, &c. on account of the Army Department.

(3.) £145,836, Greenwich Hospital and School.