HC Deb 01 August 1879 vol 248 cc1932-40

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £222,409, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith.

MR. ERRINGTON

said, he had given Notice to reduce this Vote by the sum of £500, which he understood to be the salary of the Professor of Chemistry in the College of Science and Art, Dublin. This matter arose from a very painful circumstance which had occurred in that College, which had resulted in the dismissal of the Professor of Chemistry. The College of Science in Dublin was one of two or three institutions which was connected with the Science and Art Department in London; and, certainly, they could not complain that any faults in the management were due to want of complete and full inquiries. There was a departmental inquiry in 1862; and the remarkable thing was, that that inquiry resulted in a recommendation that this College should, practically, be disestablished. Then there was, shortly-after, another inquiry, the recommendations of which were directly opposite to those of the Committee of 1862, for that Committee recommended that this College should be very considerably extended. A good deal of money was consequently expended; but the result was not very satisfactory, and in 1868 another Commission, of a very influential character, was appointed, presided over by the Duke of Leinster. That Commission had on it some very distinguished men, and it came to a very important decision. It was their recommendations which were now being carried into effect, and, so far as the Department would allow, that should be done. The point which he now wished to raise was that, owing to the manner in which this College was controlled, the results of the money spent in Dublin were totally inadequate and insufficient. The cost of the College of Science and Art in 1876 and 1877 was £7,798, and yet, for all that sum, they could only show 56 students, 3,600 visitors to the Museum, and 840 attendants at the evening classes; whilst the analogous School of Mines in Jermyn Street cost only £6,818, while it had 160 students, 47,000 visitors, and 17,000 attendances at the evening classes. He admitted that the money voted for the Department was amply sufficient; but he was very much, afraid, if attention were called to this matter in these days of economy, that they would not continue to grant the money for such an unsatisfactory and inefficient result, and that the amount would be reduced, and possibly entirely withdrawn. The inefficient results of the existing system were due almost entirely to the system of management; and he ventured to hope that the noble Lord in charge of the Department would see the justice, before any step were taken to diminish the grant, of doing something to enable the College to become more efficient. He had just mentioned that a very painful case had recently occurred at the College, and he thought it was one of the causes why it had been so inefficient. Professor Galloway was a most distinguished man, the Professor of Chemistry, who had by far the most successful class in the whole College. He was respected universally; his pupils had been exceed- ingly successful; and his was the one class which redeemed the College from the charge of very great inefficiency. But while the similar Colleges in Edinburgh and elsewhere had some sort of local directors, or some sort of local head, this Dublin College had none at all; and although the affairs were mainly directed by the Professors, one of whom was supposed to act as Dean, they really had no local control, and all the details of the arrangements had to be reported to London. As a result, there had been all sorts of irregularities going on, and there was a chronic state of complaint and dissatisfaction among the Professors. Professor Galloway had been exposed to a petty system of espionage and outrage, and he (Mr. Errington) could not help thinking that Professor Galloway had fallen most unfairly and unjustly a victim to it. His dismissal had caused a very great sensation in Dublin, and he had the sympathy of persons in very good position. Those acquainted with Professor Galloway's merits were entirely in his favour; and he could not help thinking there could be no stronger illustration of the bad system of management than this which had resulted in his dismissal. He did not propose in any way to bring forward this particular case; but he hoped the noble Lord would consider it at some future opportunity. He could not help thinking it did illustrate the necessity of some great and complete change in the management. At the recent Commission, over which the Duke of Leinster presided, the question was raised, why a system which worked well in England did not work well in Dublin? and it was very clearly shown that in England it had been rather regulated in order to make the most of a College, and of the motive power which already existed in the country, where there was a great demand for scientific and art learning. In Ireland, the case was totally different, and he could not help thinking that the people there required some stimulus to interest them in this work, and that it was not sufficient merely to pass Resolutions. He would really suggest to the noble Lord that there should be some sort of local control, in the sense of a director appointed by South Kensington, who should be responsible to the Lord Lieutenant and the Irish Government; and that there should be, also, some local committee assisting in the direction of this College in Dublin. An experiment had been recently tried which, he ventured to think, would be successful. The Museum of Science, in which his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin had taken very great interest, had a system which he hoped might be made available to the College of Science and Art; and, at any rate, he did hope that some assurance would be given that this matter should be carefully considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £221,909, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith."—(Mr. Errington.)

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

believed there was an anxiety for inquiry in regard to this institution, because it was a very unfortunate thing that a distinguished Professor of Science, who had succeeded in establishing a system of laboratory instruction such as no other Professor had, as yet, succeeded in establishing in Dublin—a man whose work was of great importance to the progress of chemistry and the industrial arts—should, after 23 years' of service, be suddenly dismissed, although he was, at that very time, enjoying the confidence of the people of Ireland, and was teaching, and had previously taught, a great many important pupils. It was clear to him, therefore, that there must be something wrong in the discipline of this institution, and he hoped the noble Lord would not only look into that, but would consider whether Professor Galloway had not been very hardly treated.

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON,

in reply, said, that there was much in the speech of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Errington) with which he could agree. Originally, as he had shortly and clearly pointed out, the Commission appointed to inquire into the matter made certain specific recommendations, among which was one that it would not be desirable to set up in Ireland a Science and Art Department distinctly separate from South Kensington, as, if that were done, Irish students would be shut out from the larger competitions and the prizes now open to them. His noble Friend who preceded him in Office, the present First Lord of the Admiralty, and the Secretary of State for the Colonies, met in Dublin on this matter, and held a consultation with the Royal Dublin Society, in order to see how the recommendations of that Commission could best be carried out. At the present time, there were a very considerable number of institutions connected with the Science and Art Department in Ireland. He did not think it was a very good arrangement that the Department in London should have the regulating of every minute detail of all these institutions; but, at the same time, it was not easy to suggest the sort of local authority which should be set up. He quite agreed that the case of Professor Galloway was a very sad one, and it was with very great reluctance that he came to the conclusion that it was necessary to dispense with his services. If that step had not been taken, he believed the efficiency, if not the very existence, of the College would have been imperilled. He proposed, presently, to go personally to Ireland to see the various Educational Bodies and Colleges there, and, in consultation with his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland, to endeavour to see if some local authority could not be set up which would deal with these administrative details. The chief control must, of course, remain at South Kensington, in order to prevent a separate system being set up; But these and. other points he would undertake to look into during the Recess, in order to see what could be done in the matter.

MR. BIGGAR

thought this question would require very considerable discussion, and as it was a very late hour he would move to report Progress. He heard the speech of the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton), and he would undertake to say not a single Member on that side of the House had any idea of what it was all about. There were several points he wished to raise on this Vote, especially in regard to the new system of management of the Dublin Society, which had never yet been explained. They also wished to know something about the management of the Royal College, and as it was then half-past 1 it was unreasonable to ask them to sit any longer, more especially as they had to meet at 12 the next day. They had, therefore, only 10 hours in which to get whatever sleep they were to have, and it was very unreasonable to ask them to go on.

Motion, made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Biggar.)

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

hoped the Motion would not be pressed. As to the Royal Dublin Society, the arrangements made were set forth in detail some years ago, when a Bill on the subject passed through Parliament, and he should be very happy to lay before the House any Papers giving any further information as to the other points. With regard to the College of Science and Art, as he had already stated, between now and next year he would undertake there should be a full inquiry into the matter, with a view of trying to settle the whole question.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

regretted they had not had a fuller statement as to the relations between South Kensington and Dublin. The Science and Art Department had done good work in this country, and, perhaps, if it were represented in Ireland by local institutions, it would succeed there; but, certainly, up to the present time, it had not succeeded. Yet there was a vast amount of public money expended through that Department in Ireland, and, for the sake of the taxpayers, he thought it would be desirable to discuss the matter. As to the promises to do something in the course of 12 months, he did not look forward to that with much hope. They had had three or four Commissions dealing with this question; and now the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton), after being at the head of the Department for some time, was unable to tell them what plans had been settled. The Royal College had been going back for eight or ten years, and they could not allow another year to go by without something being done. They were expending £7,000 a-year upon, it, and they could not permit it to dwindle to nothing without some protest. In England, there were Schools of Art all over the country, under the control of South Kensington, and they were doing a very great work; but in Ireland they had not felt the benefit which had resulted from them in this country. He thought they would not be justified, without further discussion, in passing the Vote. An immensity of public money was being spent in Ireland for nothing—["Oh, oh!"]—and it would take more than the inarticulate sounds from the hon. and gallant Admiral opposite (Sir William Edmonstone) to make him forego his right to see that public money was properly spent, and that great institutions were properly managed. He thought his hon. Friend (Mr. Biggar) was quite right in insisting upon his Motion, for at that hour there were no reporters present to tell the people of Ireland what was being done in this matter. He believed they took the very greatest interest in it. There was no subject upon which he received more communications than upon the gross mis-management of all the institutions which existed in Ireland under the patronage of South Kensington.

MR. GRAY

sincerely trusted that the Motion to report Progress would be persevered in, for this matter ought to be fully discussed at a time when the Irish people would be likely to know something of the result, especially as the greatest discontent existed all throughout Ireland with the management of South Kensington. Art work in Ireland had been strangled by South Kensington. The noble Lord had said that propositions for improvement had been shadowed forth two years ago. He could only reply that those propositions were just as shadowy to-day. The original Commission suggested that there should be in Ireland a Science and Art Department, sister to, but not subordinate to, South Kensington. That which was a really proper foundation for the scheme was overridden, and it was determined in London that the Irish Department should be a merely subordinate institution to South Kensington. The Royal Dublin Society allowed themselves to be entangled in that scheme, and ever since they had deeply regretted that they had ever become connected with South Kensington at all. So much alarm had been excited by the way in which they had been treated, that the Royal Agricultural Society had come to the conclusion to have nothing to do with a scheme of amalgamation at all. Another plan was to disturb one of the prettiest spots in Dublin by the erection of some buildings in connection with this proposed new institution. But though South Kensington was determined to have this ground, the people of Ireland were determined they should not, and, as far as he could ascertain, there was a great deal of well-founded discontent as to the management of their affairs by South Kensington. He knew, at any rate, there was much discontent at the treatment of Professor Galloway. There was nothing unreasonable in asking that the Vote should be postponed, especially as the people of Dublin were determined to secure that this matter should be dealt with in a satisfactory way.

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

said, hon. Gentlemen were under some misconception as to this Vote; but if there were a wish that the discussion should be more full than was possible at that hour, of course, he would postpone it. There were several Votes, however, now before the Committee, and he hoped hon. Members would consent to take them.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

hoped, when they came down next day, the noble Lord would be able to tell them something about the constitution of the Royal Dublin College. It was not enough to put down a Motion on the Paper on the subject, for that gave no opportunity for discussing all the pros and cons of the affair, while a word from him would enable them to see exactly how the matter stood.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

hoped the Motion to report Progress would be withdrawn. He did not know whether there would be any opposition to taking the Vote for the British Museum, especially as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Spencer Walpole) had been waiting there all the evening for it.

MR. WHITWELL

thought they might take that Vote, but he hoped no others would be asked for.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, he wished to make a statement in reference to the British Museum, and he had a Notice on the Paper on the subject; but he should have no objection to make that statement on the Report, if the Government would undertake to take it at a time which would make it possible for him to do so.

MR. BIGGAR

said, he would ask leave to withdraw his Motion, on the understanding that the Vote was postponed, and that only the British Museum Vote was taken.

MR. PARNELL

asked, if the Government would say if they would not take another Vote? If he (Mr. Parnell) and his hon. Friends understood that they were only going to take the British Museum Vote they would like to go home.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

Yes.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

Whereupon Motion made and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £221,909, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come the 31st day of March 1880, for the Salaries in course of payment during the year ending and Expenses of the Science and Art Department, and of the Establishments connected therewith.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

(4.) £82,249, British Museum.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;

Committee to sit again To-morrow.