§ Bill considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ MR. O'SULLIVANreminded the Committee that they were engaged all the previous day on this Bill, and thought that the promoters would not deny that the discussion upon it was fairly conducted. But there still remained six Amendments on the Paper to be discussed, and he would ask whether it was reasonable or fair that they should be asked, after 1 o'clock in the morning, to resume the consideration of a Bill of so much importance? He believed there never was a Bill which had received so large an amount of consideration at the hands of hon. Members on both sides of the House. The promoters first secured a day for themselves, they then got two days from the Government, and they induced their Friends to give them another day—making, in all, four days, which had been solely devoted to the discussion of this Bill. Yet the hon. Members who had charge of the measure were not satisfied without attempting to force it on at that hour in the morning. He was not prepared, however, to proceed with his Amendment then, and he begged leave to move that the Chairman report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, ''That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. O'Sullivan.)
1021THE O'CONOR DONthought that his hon. Friend the Member for the County of Limerick had given the strongest possible reasons why they should proceed with the Bill. He had shown to them the great amount of time which had already been occupied in its discussion; and, therefore, he had taken away from himself and his Friends any ground whatever for objecting to making progress. It was perfectly true that the Bill had received an amount of consideration in Committee that very few measures of this character usually received. It had now been in Committee for a very long time; they had spent days and nights in its consideration; and unless the House were determined to throw away all the time that had been spent upon it, he thought it was perfectly evident that they must proceed with it even at such an hour as that at which they had arrived. The Amendments remaining on the Paper were very similar in character to those which had already been amply discussed; and, therefore, he must press upon the Committee to persevere and endeavour to get rid of the Bill once for all. He considered that when the supporters of the Bill accepted the proposal which came from their opponents, that it should be a temporary measure, they would not be met any longer with that kind of factious opposition which had detained them already so very long in the consideration of the measure.
§ MR. ONSLOWsaid, he could promise the hon. Member for Roscommon that if he intended to go on with the Bill that night, he would stay there as long as any Gentleman to oppose such a proceeding. He would appeal to the Committee whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not given every reasonable facility for the passing of the Bill this Session? Under these circumstances, was 20 minutes past 1 o'clock a proper hour at which to take the discussion of a measure of this vital importance? They had an ample discussion on the previous day; and although he, for one, did not think that very much progress had been made on that occasion, yet there were hon. Gentlemen opposite who thought otherwise, and he would ask them, therefore, to be satisfied, and not to press the Bill at that unearthly hour of the morning. He would appeal, in the greatest sincerity, to the hon. 1022 Member for Roscommon to postpone the further consideration of the Bill in Committee until after Whitsuntide, when he could assure him that he, as an opponent of the measure, would give every consideration to it.
§ MR. FRENCHwas sorry to have to oppose his hon. Friend and Colleague; but he did think it was unreasonable to ask the House to proceed at that hour with any Bill which was likely to give rise to a long discussion. There were some Amendments which had yet to be moved to the Bill, the discussion of which would occupy a long time, and he was not himself prepared at that moment to say whether he would vote for or against them. He would also remind his hon. Friend and Colleague that he had that day to bring forward a Motion in reference to a subject in which Irish Members took a great interest, and that was an additional reason why they should not go on with the Bill at the present time. If they attempted to proceed, it would only end—he was going to say in a squabble, but he believed that was not a Parliamentary expression——but in a wrangle, which would hardly reflect credit upon the House.
§ MR. R. POWERhoped that the hon. Member for Roscommon would not refuse to listen to the appeal of his hon. Colleague. Really, the promoters of the Bill had done a great many extraordinary things; but none had been more extraordinary than the bringing on a Bill of this description at half-past 1 o'clock in the morning. If the senior Member for Roscommon consulted his own interests, and particularly his health, he would not persevere in that course. The hon. Member had a most important Motion down on the Notice Paper for that day, and he was sure that it would take him two hours to explain fully to the House the various bearings of the very delicate question that was involved. If he forced this Bill on now he would not be in a position to do justice to that question. The first clause to be discussed was one which raised the whole principle of the Bill, and which would have to be discussed at great length. If they went on with this Bill, they would get into a most unseemly scrimmage. [An hon. MEMBER: Why?] He would tell the Committee why. Because there were a number of hon. Members who were determined that the 1023 Bill should not be proceeded with, at that unseasonable hour, and they would continue to divide the House upon the Motions to report Progress, and that the Chairman leave the Chair. He was anxious that his constituents should know the opinions which he entertained on this question, and hon. Members were all aware that no reports were ever furnished to the papers of what occurred after half-past 12. He was reluctant, indeed, to waste his eloquence on the desert air. He observed that one-half the Members of the House were half asleep, and the other half ought to be asleep; and he would, therefore, really appeal to the good sense, the generosity, and the great constitutional principles which governed his hon. Friend's conduct in this matter, and ask him not to go on with the Bill at that hour of the morning. It would do no good to its supporters, and they might depend upon it that these proceedings after half-past 1 o'clock, did not tend to raise the House of Commons in the estimation of the country. He would appeal to his hon. Friend to consider this, and allow them to go home to bed quietly and soberly.
§ MR. BARINGthought that hon. Gentlemen who asked the hon. Member for Roscommon to give way were asking the House to stultify itself. The House had, over and over again, by large majorities, expressed a decided opinion in favour of the Bill. It was of no use for hon. Members who opposed the Bill to say that they had new arguments to bring forward. Their arguments were worn threadbare. An hon. Member had just told them that the whole principle was to be discussed, as if they had not done that usque ad nauseam, and had not repeatedly affirmed the principle of the Bill. Did their opponents suppose that any arguments which they might now bring forward would induce the House to retract its opinion in regard to the measure? What they were asking them to do on the present occasion was to place themselves in a position which would reflect no honour upon them either in or outside the House.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAhoped they would be permitted to proceed with the first Amendment, and when that was disposed of the Committee would consent to report Progress. He was by no means satisfied that his hon. Friends behind him 1024 would agree that he ought to make this proposition at the present stage; but this was not a reasonable hour at which to commence Business. He hoped hon. Members would agree that when the first clause was disposed of, Progress should be reported. If hon. Members would agree to that, he would vote against reporting Progress now, and would do his best to go on with Business.
§ COLONEL NAGHTENsaid, that on behalf of "the front Opposition Bench," as the right hon. Member for Greenwich, who took so great an interest in this Bill, was unfortunately prevented from being present, he thought that was sufficient reason for reporting Progress.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 45; Noes 103: Majority 58.—(Div. List, No. 159.)
§ MR. O'SULLIVANsaid, he did not think it was treating the House fairly. [Several hon. MEMBERS: Go on, go on.] The new clause he had to move was as follows:—
''Total closing not to be carried out in any town or parish in Ireland until it is first ascertained by a vote of all the householders in each parish that the majority of the people are in favour of such total closing.He did not suppose that those who had charge of the Bill would object to that clause coming on for discussion. He expected strong support from the advocates of the Bill. It was not a Permissive Bill, because this clause would give power to allow people to prevent its coming into operation by voting against it. It was contrary to the permissive principle; but, at the same time, his clause would give power to the people to say whether the Bill should come into operation or not. If the Committee thought fit to discuss this Amendment, he would propose to the hon. Member for Roscommon that Progress should then be reported.
§ New Clause,—(Mr. O'Sullivan,)—brought up, and read the first time.
§ MAJOR O'GORMANI beg to move, Mr. Chairman, that you leave the Chair. I should like the hon. Member for Roscommon to look at the Bill now and compare its present condition with what it was when he first intruduced it. At that time it was a respectable-looking 1025 baby; but, contrary to all the laws of nature, it has become an absolute abortion, and it is his own Bill; for, miserable as it is, one of the chief supporters has denied all participation in its paternity. We never will allow this measure to pass. Nothing on earth will induce us to do so; and, if it were necessary, we propose remaining here until this day month, rather than suffer the measure to become law. I beg, Sir, to move that you do leave the Chair.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Major O'Gorman.)
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAhoped the hon. and gallant Member would not persevere in the Motion that the Chairman leave the Chair. They ought not to persevere with the proposal of the hon. Member for County Limerick. They had already decided on the principle which the clause contained. The clause would allow to municipalities the right of taking themselves out of the operation of the Bill. It would be stultifying the Committee if the Committee were to give all the towns and parishes, as well as the municipalities, the power they had already refused to the latter. He had done everything he could to make the Bill a good one; but he was not going to do anything to stultify the Committee, and therefore he hoped the clause would be dealt with.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 106: Majority 88.—(Div. List, No. 160.)
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. O'SULLIVANasked, whether it was in Order to put the Question before there had been any debate upon the clause?
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 10; Noes 115: Majority 105.—(Div. List, No. 161.)
§ MR. ONSLOWbegged to move that the Chairman report Progress, and ask 1026 leave to sit again. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look over the Division List on this proposal, on the following morning, he would find that some of his greatest supporters had voted in favour of that being done. As one of the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman, he could assure him that he should use his humble efforts to prevent the Bill from passing. The Bill should never have been brought forward at all; and, considering the opposition which it had met with, and the concessions which its promoters had made, he thought the hon. Member for Roscommon might very well have said—"The Bill is not the same as that which I first introduced, and therefore I will withdraw it." He should endeavour to thwart the measure in all its future stages; and he appealed to hon. Gentlemen whether, in all these circumstances, it was advisable to go on with the Bill? Why cumbereth it the Session? Why not cut it down at once? Why ask hon. Members to stop up, night after night, discussing it, instead of allowing them to get home peaceably to their beds?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he certainly felt, with his hon. Friend who had just spoken, that it was a very good thing to get to bed; but he desired to point out to the hon. Gentleman, and to other hon. Members, what the position of the Government was with respect to the Bill, and what had happened in regard to it. The Bill was one which, in its original form, was adopted by a very large portion of Members from Ireland, and by a majority in the House. The Government felt themselves unable to accept the measure in the form in which it was thus presented; but, having regard to the manner in which it was supported, they undertook to consider it, and to propose certain Amendments which, if they were accepted by its promoters, would induce them to give such facilities as they reasonably could for the further progress of the Bill. Well, the Bill was introduced; the Amendments proposed by the Government were accepted; and the measure had been gone on with since that time. It had been very fully discussed, and discussed, no doubt, at considerable inconvenience to some hon. Members. He mentioned that as a proof that, at all events, a large number of hon. Gentlemen were anxious to 1027 carry the Bill. He did not say that there was any undue interference with the proceedings of the House, when hon. Gentlemen sat up night after night for the purpose of promoting a certain measure; but their doing so certainly showed that they took a deep interest in the Bill which was under consideration. Well, the advocates of this measure had not only accepted the Amendments which had been originally proposed by the Government, but they had also accepted a very important Amendment which his right hon. Friend (Mr. Lowther) had advised them to adopt, limiting the operation of the Act to a certain number of years. Under these circumstances, and having arrived at this stage, he did not think that anyone could fairly find fault with the promoters of the Bill for endeavouring to conduct it in such a manner as they considered best. On the one hand, he was afraid that he was not in a position to offer them very much in the way of facilities; and, on the other hand, he did not feel that he had any right to interfere with their liberty of judgment as to the way in which they should proceed with the Bill in its remaining stages. He would suggest, if he might, to hon. Members who intended to propose new clauses or Amendments that, instead of delaying, it would be more reasonable on their part to move those clauses or Amendments at the present stage, so that the opinion of the Committee might at once be taken upon them. Or, if they did not do so now, they might reserve to themselves the right of doing it on Report. He certainly thought it was not at all to be wondered at that the promoters of the Bill, having gone through so much, and having been supported by a large number of Members in bringing the measure to the point which it had now reached, should be anxious to proceed with it and to carry it forward.
§ SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAdeprecated the adoption of such a course as that of merely proposing dilatory Motions to the effect that the Chairman should report Progress, or that the Chairman should leave the Chair. At the same time, he hoped that, after the Amendment which stood next on the Paper had been dealt with, the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) would consent to Progress being reported.
§ MR. SHAWsaid, that so far as he was concerned he was disposed to make a concession to the hon. Member for Roscommon, if the hon. Gentleman would make a concession to him. At the same time, he did not hesitate to say that the hon. Member had acted very fairly in making concessions during the progress of the Bill, and he did not think that, in that respect, the opponents of the measure had any ground whatever for complaint. He had an Amendment on the Paper; but he was perfectly willing to withdraw it at the present stage, and bring it up on Report, if the hon. Gentleman could give him any assurance that Report would come on at such a time that the proposition could be fairly discussed. It had been said, however, that Report would be put down for the first day after the Whitsuntide Recess, and that he regarded as quite unreasonable. Those for whom he spoke had no wish to prolong discussion on the Bill. They could now do but little good by sitting up in the House night after night and debating it. The only two Amendments of any consequence which remained to be disposed of, were that of which he had given Notice and that which the hon. Member for Westmeath (Mr. P. J. Smyth) had placed upon the Paper with regard to compensation; and, as he had already indicated, if any assurance could be given in respect to time, he would be willing to reserve his Amendment until the Report.
§ MR. ONSLOWsaid, he desired to ease the minds of any hon. Members who might be troubled with reference to the Report. It was his intention to move, when the Report came on, that it should be considered that day three months. He considered that it was quite unjustifiable to ask the Committee to continue sitting at that hour of the morning (10 minutes past 2 o'clock), for the purpose of endeavouring to make some progress with the Bill.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERhoped that the hon. Member who was in charge of the Bill would, when he thought of the interests which were at stake, see his way to affording an assurance that due Notice would be given, in order that there might be a fair discussion on Report.
THE O'CONOR DONsaid, he could not really understand these appeals which were made to him. An appeal 1029 had been made to him on a previous occasion, to the effect that if he consented to make this a temporary measure, further opposition to it would be withdrawn. ["No!"] He had consented to the principle of the Amendment which had been proposed in that direction; but he had only done so to find that, instead of the concession having any effect, he now met with the same opposition as before. His hon. Friend talked of his naming a day for the Report, as if he had at his disposal the remaining days of the Session. The day when the Report might be taken was not a matter within his discretion. He could not, except by consent, bring it on after half-past 12 o'clock; but, the Bill having met with such persistent and consistent opposition, its promoters had no other resource open to them than that of endeavouring to take advantage of whatever chance they could get. Hon. Gentlemen could stop Report being proceeded with after the hour he had mentioned; and they knew what likelihood there was, until the Government gave the promoters of the Bill another day, of it coming on at an earlier hour. In these circumstances, he could only tell his hon. Friends distinctly that, whenever he found an opportunity of bringing it forward, he should feel obliged to take advantage of that opportunity. What good, however, could possibly result from these constant wrangles in the early hours of the morning? So far, the concessions which he had made had not had the slightest effect in reducing the opposition to the Bill; and, at the present moment, he did not know that there was any real offer before him. If his hon. Friends would say that they would allow the Bill to pass through its remaining stages, and be reported to the House, then that would be some ground for asking him not to take advantage of every chance which might be afforded him of getting on with the measure; but, so far as he understood, there was no such proposal before him or the Committee.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that while he had suggested at a previous Sitting that the operation of the Act should be limited to a certain number of years, he had done so upon the merits of the proposition itself, and not in connection with any supposed understandings or 1030 agreements respecting other portions of the Bill, of which he had no cognizance, and which were not then before the Committee. As to the remarks that had just been made respecting the fact that he (Mr. J. Lowther) had not taken part in the last, or, in fact, it might have been added, all the recent divisions, he must enter a protest against the doctrine it was attempted thus to lay down—namely, that by the granting of facilities in respect of time which the Government had loyally carried out, they were bound, also, to record their votes in favour of a Bill for which they were in no sense responsible; and he must emphatically protest that he could not be expected to be attached to the triumphal car of the hon. Member for Roscommon at all hours of the morning, and to walk through the Lobbies in constant divisions upon a measure of which he had frequently expressed his disapproval. With regard to the proposal of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Shaw), he did not understand that hon. Gentleman to wish any specific day mentioned for consideration of the Report on the Bill. What he understood the hon. Member to object to was a particular day on which he did not think the Report ought to be taken up; and that was the first day after the Recess. It would be unreasonable to expect the hon. Member for Roscommon to name a day when the Report would be dealt with. That hon. Gentleman had not command of the time or the arrangements of the House.
§ MR. SHAWsaid, he had intended to point out that it was not advisable to take the Report before the expiration of a certain period. There would be but a short Recess; Irish Members had long distances to go, and they had a good deal of business to attend to within a limited period.
MR. SULLIVANsaid, he had exerted himself on the previous day with the hon. Member for Roscommon in order, if possible, to meet the views of the more reasonable section of the opponents of the Bill; but now, whenever a compromise was suggested, the latter hon. Gentlemen appeared to be desirous of having it all their own way. There were surely two sides to a compromise; and if the supporters of the Bill mentioned a day, as a matter of fact, before 1031 which, the Report would not be taken, would there be an undertaking given, on the part of its opponents, that the threat of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Onslow) would not be carried out? If no such undertaking were forthcoming, and if the advocates of the measure were to be met with implacable opposition, there was no course open to those who supported the Bill except to push the measure forward by every means in their power, and thereby vindicate their own self-respect and the position and honour of the House.
§ MR. SHAWcould only say what he had said before; and, in doing so, he spoke for himself alone. As far as his Amendment went, he was now willing to take it off the Paper and to bring it on upon Report, and he would strongly recommend other hon. Members to adopt a similar course. At such an hour as that it did not appear to him that there was any prospect or possibility of discussing Amendments with any degree of satisfaction.
§ MR. ONSLOWsaid, that the remarks which he had made appeared to have been somewhat misunderstood. All he had intended to say was that it was his purpose to oppose the Bill on Report.
MR. DICKSONsuggested that the opponents of the measure should allow the Bill to pass through Committee that night, on the understanding that the discussion on the remaining new clauses should be taken on the Report, and that the Report itself should not be proceeded with before the 17th of June. On such an understanding as this, the measure might now be reported pro formâ.
§ MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he regarded the proposal of the hon. Member as very reasonable, and he hoped that it would be agreed to.
§ MR. ONSLOWsaid, that on the distinct understanding that those who objected to the Bill would have an opportunity of opposing it on Report, he asked leave to withdraw his Motion for reporting Progress.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday, 17th June.