HC Deb 27 May 1878 vol 240 cc748-62
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL,

in moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the cost, direct and indirect, of Her Majesty's Indian Troops serving beyond the old Indian limits east of the Cape of Good Hope, said, he did not design the Motion to be one hostile to the Government at the present stage of events. Though no one felt more deeply than he the wound that had been inflicted upon the Constitution by bringing over those troops without the consent of Parliament, yet he considered that the case might be made the best of, and that a sort of ex post facto sanction might be obtained for it in the shape of a Vote in Supply for 7,000 men. He had declined to give way to the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), because he could not concur in his Motion, the direct effect of which would be to raise an Indian financial debate at an inopportune moment. Also, as regarded the strength of the Indian Army, he differed from the hon. Member for Hackney. The hon. Member's Motion was not logical, for it did not follow, because 7,000 troops had been moved from India to Malta, that the Army of India was too large. They must always have a Force ready for an emergency, and when that emergency arose they might well receive some aid from the Indian troops, just as India, in an emergency, had the aid of British troops. His objection went more to the manner in which they had been used. He thought that the result of a further inquiry on this subject would be more favourable to the use of these Indian troops than was the Report of Colonel Anson's Committee which sat upon the question in 1867. That Committee was presided over by no less a person than the present Marquess of Salisbury; and its Members reported that, in regard to the military and political aspect of the matter, the highest authorities were very much—it might be said hopelessly—divided, but that with reference to the financial aspect of the question authorities were agreed that there would be no saving by the employment of Indian troops in garrisons other than in India. At that time the Mutiny of 1857 was fresh in men's memories, and there was much prejudice against Sepoys. Major-General Hodson, for instance, could imagine nothing more "suicidal," because the presence of Sepoy troops anywhere must lead to murder and bloodshed. He believed, however, that the result of a further inquiry at the present time would be more favourable to the character of Native troops. He was convinced that a great change in the Native Army had occurred since the Report of that Committee was made, and his object in proposing the present Motion was that the Report itself should be supplemented, modernized, and brought down to the present day. He believed that the days of the Indian Mutiny had gone by; that their Native Indian troops had very much improved; and that they were good and faithful subjects of Her Majesty. Since 1867 the short-service system and the Army Reserve had been introduced. A great difficulty of short service was the large amount of foreign service which their troops were compelled to undergo; and therefore he thought the Government would welcome any measure which would relieve them of a considerable amount of such service with safety and advantage to the State. As to the financial view of the question, if the objections which were found to exist in 1867 to the employment of these troops should now be found not to be insuperable he should be very favourably inclined to the experiment of trying, to a certain extent, the use of Indian troops in order to relieve some of their British soldiers at certain stations. His impression was that a measure of that kind would be good both for their Indian troops and for their own troops; and that the employment of a limited number of the former in the way he had indicated would improve their discipline and render them more available in case a great emergency should arise—which God forbid!—when Her Majesty's Government would have to draw upon Indian soldiers to a larger extent than they had done at present. In connection with the question of finance, he had said that Indian troops serving out of India received larger pay and allowances than British soldiers, and the discrepancy was still greater in the pay of the officers. On that point it would be desirable to have some inquiry. He was inclined to think that at present the officers of Her Majesty's Indian Army were somewhat overpaid, and if they would avoid extravagance some alteration in the rate of pay must be made. The practice of giving civil employment to officers in India tended very much to detract from the efficiency of the Staff Corps in that country, and led also to the high pay which the officers received. The remuneration in civil employment was so great that it was found necessary to raise the pay of the officers of the Native Army, that they might not be tempted away. It was impossible to increase the number of those officers as long as their pay was so abnormally high, though, for his part, he believed the number of officers was already large enough. He wished that they should ascertain from the proposed inquiry whether for normal purposes, and as a rule, they could employ some of those Indian troops in their foreign stations; whether such employment was so successful as to justify a farther use of such troops; and, thirdly, if in time of great need they were driven to resort to India for an increase of their military strength, they could do so with advantage? He admitted, without putting faith in the gushing accounts they had seen, that so far the experiment had been successful. The troops had come forward willingly, without difficulty or demur, no doubt influenced by the high pay and allowances. As regarded the character of the troops, some people appeared inclined to talk of them as if they were extremely wild and savage men, whom it would be difficult to keep in order. He had no fears on that score. Their present Indian soldiers were taken from the plough, and, as far as regarded order, might be trusted to serve in any part of Her Majesty's Dominions. He was no military man, but he had an intimate knowledge of the Indian troops; and he asserted, without fear of contradiction, that they were quiet, orderly, and easily managed. He thought something might be done for the relief of British soldiers by employing Indian troops in unhealthy stations; but, if they were so employed, it would not be fair to give them all the bad and none of the good. He would suggest that they might bring a few of the Native Indian troops home, in order that we might see them and that they might see us. He believed that contact with those troops would remove many of the prejudices entertained in this country; that when they knew them better they would find that they were not semi-savages, as some had supposed, but orderly, pleasant, and good-natured people, and that we should like them pretty well, while they in turn would like us. He would not employ them for real duty in this country; but if an honorary detachment of those troops were brought to do duty at Aldershot and to attend Her Majesty, the Constitutional difficulty might be overcome provided only the Government would condescend to get the authority of Parliament for a measure of that kind. When they became better acquainted with those troops he thought they would take a more favourable view of them. In regard to the financial aspect of the question—how it was proposed to raise the money by which the Vote was to be met—he was afraid, from the statements which had dropped from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was not proposed to raise it, but to borrow it. The present Estimate amounted to £750,000; but he did not doubt that the other charges not yet brought into the account would bring the amount up to £1,000,000, or more; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would do well to recast his Budget, and raise more money by taxation.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words ''a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the cost, direct and indirect, of Her Majesty's Indian Troops serving beyond the old Indian limits east of the Cape of Good Hope,"—(Sir George Campbell,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

COLONEL STANLEY

said, it was unnecessary for him to trespass long on the time of the House, for on an examination of the Resolution which the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had moved, it seemed to him that there was very much to which the Government could agree. And although, in point of form, it might be necessary to demur to and to negative that Resolution as an Amendment on going into Supply, he was prepared, subject to certain reservations, to grant the greater portion of what the hon. Member proposed. The hon. Gentleman had pointed out, with great truth, that, as the Report of the Committee of that House, which sat about 11 years ago, under the Presidency of his noble Friend then Viscount Cranborne, referred to a date now considerably remote, some revision might now have become requisite in the terms under which those troops might be employed. Moreover, however carefully that Committee might have examined that question, and whatever might have been the value of the evidence it took, its Report, nevertheless, was one rather of a speculative character, and pointing rather to what might be done under certain circumstances than dealing with the actual facts. Now, accepting the facts as they now stood, it seemed to have become very expedient to inquire most carefully into that matter, to see where faults might have occurred, and what remedies could be proposed, and, above all, to weigh very carefully the financial effect of the measure and its indirect effects on the other Estimates of the year. The Committee, which was moved for by his late lamented Friend (Colonel Anson), examined into that subject very generally. It was appointed, if he recollected rightly owing to a Report that was made by a Committee which sat in a previous year, and which dealt with the case of China, in which a very remarkable mortality of European troops had occurred. That brought the matter prominently before the notice of the House; and, taking advantage of it, his late hon. and gallant Friend thought the time had come for endeavouring to obtain from this country the assent to a more general employment of Native troops out of India. Well, that Committee examined the question of employing those troops rather as a matter of every-day necessity than in the mode at present proposed to the House; and it undoubtedly intended that they should, in the first instance, be employed mainly in climates where it was not desirable to employ Europeans. That might have given the Report of the Committee a bias in a particular direction, and the circumstances were now so far different that there might be points upon which further inquiry had become necessary, and where a Committee, carefully selected, might present a Report that would prove of value to the country. He had, indeed, so far anticipated the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), that he had intended, as soon as the fact had been ascertained of all those troops having arrived at Malta, and the arrangements had been fully carried out, that a Departmental Committee should be appointed to examine very much the same question, and to see where shortcomings and defects had arisen, whether the arrangements as to employing European and Native troops, or as to employing both together, required modification, and, in fact, to bring all the knowledge that was required on the subject up to the present day. He thought that matters of detail could be more properly dealt with later in the evening; but while he conveyed, on the part of the Government, their assent to the appointment of that Committee, it became his duty to say that he did so mainly in the direction indicated by the hon. Member's proposal as it stood on the Notice Paper—namely— To inquire into the cost, direct and indirect, of Her Majesty's Indian Troops serving beyond the old Indian limits east of the Cape of Good Hope. The hon. Gentleman had argued some of the questions of which he spoke with reference to a very much wider range of subjects, and appeared to consider many matters that were not strictly included in the terms of his Resolution. As to the whole organization of the Native Indian Army, that was a question which itself would occupy a Committee for a considerable time, and it was hardly one which could be tacked on to an inquiry which, in the first instance, was evidently directed to another point. In the same way, the operation of the Staff Corps rules, he submitted, were rather subjects for an inquiry apart from the question of the employment of those troops at home, and still more would the question of the civil employment of officers in India form no proper part of the inquiry before that Committee. It was not only undesirable that the scope of that inquiry should be made too wide, but he would point out that if the field were made so diverse, it would be impossible to present the recommendations in such time that practical effect could be given to them. One lived long enough to be surprised at nothing; but, considering what had recently occurred, he confessed his surprise at hearing the hon. Member absolutely propose that the Indian troops should serve not only at Malta and Gibraltar, but that they should actually be brought nearer home. However desirable that might be from the hon. Gentleman's point of view, that was a hypothetical question which he preferred to put aside for the present; and all he would do was to join him in saying that it could only be done with the distinct assent of Parliament. Though it was his duty to demur to the form of the Amendment, the Government were willing, in substance, to agree to the Motion for a Select Committee. He thought it necessary to point out that the Committee could not be appointed for some little time, as most of the information already received as to the financial and commissariat arrangements had come by telegraph. No doubt, when the troops had arrived at Malta, there would be numerous small questions to be adjusted which were not as yet before the House; and, after their arrival, it would be necessary for them to settle down before an inquiry could be conducted satisfactorily. He would not refuse an inquiry, though he was obliged to oppose an Amendment to the Motion for going into Supply.

MR. C. BECKETT-DENISON

said, he was glad that the Government had thought fit to accept the proposal for the appointment of a Committee, because he believed that the ground of investigation was of great importance to the future military power of this country. He was one of those who hoped to see Parliament elaborate a system by which the Indian Army might become for Imperial purposes more generally useful than it was now; but it was impossible that this could be brought about so long as the enormous discrepancies now existing between the pay of the Indian Army and that of the British Army were allowed to continue. They had always adopted the principle of paying European officers highly—he would not say too highly—for service in India, and they had also admitted the principle that when the Indian regiments were expatriated they also should receive extra pay. He believed a great deal of the enthusiasm recently shown by the regiments for foreign service was intimately connected with the extra pay which they would receive; but what could not be permitted to endure was their employment, with great variations of pay, in the various ranks of the Service. Possibly the Committee that was about to be appointed would be able to devise some remedy. He trusted the proposed Committee might be able to propose such a scheme as would make general service on the part of the Indian troops out of India not the exception, but the rule, and that in these days of speedy communications India would be reckoned, not as bounded by its own narrow limits, but as an integral part of Her Majesty's Dominions, sharing the joys, sorrows, and glories of the Empire. He believed that the recent discussion on this subject would help to clear away many prejudices against the employment of Native troops.

MR. HAYTER

said, that as a Member of Colonel Anson's Committee, he wished to remind the House of the terms of Reference to that Committee. He confessed he had heard with considerable surprise the announcement of the Secretary for War that within 10 years he had thought it necessary to appoint another Committee on this subject. It was the intention of Colonel Anson, in moving for this Committee, to inquire into the duties performed by the British Army in India and the Colonies, with the view of ascertaining how far it was desirable to employ certain portions of Her Majesty's Indian Army in Colonial service, or to organize a Force of Native troops for general service in European climates. Colonel Anson himself thought the first question indicated by the terms of Reference was too large for the Committee to enter upon; and the first paragraph of the Report, written by its Chairman, Lord Salisbury, showed the necessity for limiting the terms of Reference. That paragraph was to the effect, that the Committee had thought it best to limit their inquiry to the consideration of the duties of the British Army in India, so far only as they affected the Native troops; and their inquiry had no reference, as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) had said, to the employment of these troops in unhealthy places. Much of the evidence also taken by the Committee related to the transport of Indian troops to Malta and Gibraltar; and one of the principal questions was, both how they were likely to be received in those fortresses, and what would be the expense to this country of garrisoning them with Indian troops. The main objection to the proposal was the great expense which would be involved in their transport and pay; that was the point at issue now, and the House would have to decide whether the objects proposed by the Government could not have been effected at a less cost by the employment of White regiments taken from the Mediterranean garrisons. As for the proposal to bring any of the Natives to this country, there were many objections to that course, specially the fear of blood feuds, the practice of mutilation from a fancied insult to their women, and other objections, which need not now be specified. Colonel Anson himself, one of the bravest and most gallant spirits in this House, was yet not sufficiently brave to make the proposal of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy—namely, to bring over Probyn's or Fane's Horse to relieve Her Majesty's Life Guards at Buckingham Palace. It had cost £750,000, or rather more than £100 per man, to move these troops, and the question really was, whether the Government could not have effected its political objects at much less cost by the employment of White troops moved on from other garrisons to Malta. Perhaps the most extraordinary part of this matter was, that the Commander of the most expensive Expedition, in their experience of little wars of late years which they ever had, was the only General officer called in to advise the War Office and the Home Government. Upon this they had had a lesson before; for in the Abyssinian War they fought a barbarian King, whose troops never came into the field but once—namely, at Arogee—when the English troops apparently did the fighting, and the Natives did the running away, and an expenditure of £9,000,000 was incurred; whilst in the Ashantee War, where two or three day's desperate bush fighting took place, the struggle was brought to a successful issue within the time and expense estimated by the War Minister—not for £9,000,000, but £900,000. He recommended that fact to the consideration of the electoral body of this country, when they came to judge of the enormous expense incurred, in following up their policy, by adopting the extravagant Estimates of a distinguished Indian General.

MR. RYLANDS

I regret that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) should have brought forward this Motion on the present occasion. He is, of course, within the undoubted exercise of his right, and the Motion is both valuable and important; but it would have been equally appropriate if introduced upon an ordinary occasion on a Motion for going into Committee of Supply. I regret he has persisted, because it has prevented a number of hon. Members from uniting together and challenging the opinion of the House upon the direct issue raised by the Government, that we should go into Committee for the purpose of voting a considerable sum of money to meet an extraordinary expenditure. That is the question more immediately before the House at this moment; and while, no doubt, it would be very proper at some future time, or at some remote period of the Session to which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War (Colonel Stanley) looks for ward, to hold an inquiry into the merits and efficiency of Indian troops as compared with European troops, yet that is a question which any hon. Gentleman can answer for himself without the assistance of a Committee. We do not want a Committee to prove that the use of Indian troops in Europe is, to say the least of it, a piece of gross extravagance. It would have been of more advantage to the House if we had had no bye-issue raised. We are asked by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go into Committee to vote a large sum of money for an Extraordinary Public Service; and I think we are entitled, before we go into Committee, to be satisfied by the Government that this large sum of money is intended for a Service necessary for British interests; and I think we have also the right to be satisfied that, if necessary, it is proposed to conduct the expenditure in the most economical manner. If the Government does not satisfy us on these points, the House is entitled to reject the proposal made by the Government, that we go into Committee of Supply to grant them this money. I venture to say the Government have entirely failed to satisfy the House on these points; and we are without information that would justify us in the opinion that this Extraordinary Service is one necessary for the maintenance of British interests, or calculated to promote peace in Europe. In fact, the Government came and asked the House to take a most important step blindfolded. We know how on a former occasion, on a question of home policy, the Prime Minister described his policy as a "leap in the dark." He is now asking us to take a "leap in the dark" as regards foreign policy. We are not treated by the Government in a fair and candid spirit, when they thus seek to commit us to an important act of public policy without any reasons to justify it. When we met this proposal with criticism, and urged objections, we were told by Members of the Government, in language of injured innocence,—"Our mouths are closed; regard for British interests imposes silence upon us; but if we could our tale unfold, it would satisfy every critic, would remove every objection, and prove to an admiring country how necessary were our measures for the interests of the Empire and the welfare of Europe." Of course, when we are appealed to as a matter of confidence to support the Government, that appeal is received in a very different spirit on the two sides of the House. The hon. Members on the other side display a child-like simplicity in their confidence, and are prepared to accept anything, and to give the Government carte blanche to spend any amount of money, and for any purpose. But we, on this side, hold a very different view. It was, I think, Lord Chatham who said confidence is a plant of very slow growth; but to have any growth of confidence at all, there must be some root for it. When we look back for the last two or three years, we do not find that Government have given any grounds for confidence. We are now told there are prospects of the meeting of Congress, and hopes of peace, and I am sure we all receive that intelligence as satisfactory and encouraging.

MR. SPEAKER

I must point out to the hon. Member for Burnley that the question immediately before the House is the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. In the event of that Amendment being negatived, the Question will be put that I do leave the Chair, when the observations of the hon. Member will be in Order; but they do not now appear to be directed to the immediate subject of debate.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

said, that any inquiries with regard to the mere expense of the troops would be comparatively worthless in connection with a settlement of the larger and more important question of uniting the Armies of the East and the West. At present, such an experiment as his hon. Friend had advocated could only be tried upon a small scale, when they considered the existing constitution of the Indian Army; and hon. Gentlemen should not hurry off with the idea that, because of the movement of a small Force from India to Malta, the larger and more important question had been in any way settled. He did not deprecate such a trial, considering it a mere experimental measure; but the Army of India must be placed on such a footing as would enable the experiment to be fairly tried. At the same time, he was of opinion that, for political and financial purposes, it was undesirable that they should have a homogeneous Army in their Eastern Empire, as it might be a danger to the State.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

said, he was glad to learn that this Committee would be granted; for he believed the result of the inquiry would prove that, except in an emergency, Indian troops could not be employed in Europe with any advantage—military, political, or economical. He trusted, he might add, that the appointment of the Committee would not be delayed very long, but that it would enter upon the proposed inquiry, if possible, within the present Session. The Estimates before the House for the movement of the Indian troops amounted to nearly £750,000; but there were several points which had altogether been omitted from consideration. It had been stated that 7,000 troops were to be brought from India; but he could not ascertain that more than 6,100 would be available for that vast charge. The average cost of each would be about £123; whereas they might, he believed, obtain from the resources of this country and the Colonies soldiers for an outlay of not more than half that sum.

MR. A. MILLS

I wish to know whether the hon. and gallant Member is in Order in discussing a question which might be more conveniently debated on the Vote itself?

MR. SPEAKER

said, the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman were relevant to the Question before the House.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

said, that another matter which had not been mentioned was, that four batteries of British Artillery were to be brought from India, which would involve a considerable expense. There was also another matter to which he wished to direct attention. He had had the honour of commanding some of the troops which were now on the way to Malta, and should be the last man to say anything in disparagement of them. Properly officered, they might be fairly matched against any troops that were likely to be brought against them. He dissented, however, from the views of those who wished to see any portion of those troops as an organized body introduced into this country. If any advantages were to be derived from the movement they were political, and he would not say one word to diminish their effect. As Malta was an island, and England was an island, the Native officers might form their opinion of England from Malta alone; and he thought, therefore, that the suggestion of his hon. Friend behind him, that some of those troops—selected officers only—before their return to India—which he hoped would be in a few months—should be brought over here, so that they might carry away with them a proper idea of the power of this country. That idea might, if acted upon in a judicious way, be productive of advantage.

MR. A. MILLS

said, he believed the result of any inquiry would be to show that the employment of Indian troops might be carried out with advantage to this country. Under the present system, anomalies and inequalities existed between officers of the Indian Army and those who commanded regiments not serving in India, which gave rise to much dissatisfaction; and he hoped that any official investigation would have the effect of putting an end to them. He trusted, also, that the inquiry would result in giving direct encouragement to a policy which, if not financially objectionable, was, in his opinion, politically most desirable—that which would draw, in case of need, upon our Indian troops for Imperial purposes, thus reminding them that they were part of one great Imperial Army, and members of one nation.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he did not clearly apprehend how much of the question it was proposed to refer to the Committee. The Committee of 1867 had dealt with the whole subject both in its political and financial bearings, and their inquiry, which had lasted over a whole Session, had been of a most exhaustive character. No point was left untouched in the inquiry, as far as the employment of the Indian troops out of India was concerned. The Committee dealt with the subject under several heads—first, the question of pay; second, the difficulty of using Indian troops side by side with British; third, the cost of providing the kind of food to which they were accustomed; and, fourth, the comparative value of the British soldier and the Sepoy; and the conclusion they arrived at was that it would be "unwise to make any considerable change in the direction proposed;" but that in certain Colonies where sanitary conditions were unfavourable to Englishmen, Indian troops might be used by way of experiment. He fully admitted that since 1867 circumstances had greatly changed—the Suez Canal, for instance, had been opened, and the telegraphic system had been extended; but he confessed he had great difficulty indeed in seeing the precise points which the Secretary for War considered as requiring fresh elucidation. However, if undertaken, it ought to be conducted in the most thorough manner, and the terms of Reference ought to be stated with extreme precision, that no room might be left for doubt as to the duties of the Committee.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that after the concession which had been made by the Secretary of State for War, he should wish to withdraw his Amendment. ["No, no!"]

Question put, and agreed to.