THE EASTERN QUESTION—THE RESERVE FORCES.—OBSERVATIONS. (Hansard, 28 March 1878)

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON
Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or some Member of the Government, will be able to take this opportunity of giving the House some information with reference to a statement which it is understood has been made in "another place." I understood it has been announced that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to advise Her Majesty to avail herself of powers which She possesses under certain recent Acts of Parliament, and to avail Herself of the services of the Reserve Forces. Sir, it is not, I think, very generally understood whether that statement applies to all the Reserve Forces, or only to a certain portion of them; and I think that it would be desirable that this House should be informed, with the least possible delay, whether it is the intention of the Government to advise the immediate embodiment of the Militia, or only to call out the Army and Militia Reserves? Perhaps, also, the Government will be able to state to the House what course it is intended to take in Parliament with regard to these measures? I believe it was announced that a Message would shortly be delivered to Parliament bearing on this subject. It might be convenient to the House if we were informed on what day it is probable that that Message will be presented.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY
As the subject to which the noble Lord has referred belongs rather to the Department I represent, I would inform him that under the Acts alluded to it is necessary, on calling out the First-Class Army Reserve, and the Militia Reserve, that a communication should be made to Parliament, if Parliament is sitting. On that communication being made, a Proclamation should be issued, calling out the whole, or such part of the Reserves as may be needed. That course is to be adopted. The communication to Parliament will probably be made on Monday next; but I am not able to state the exact day. That, of course, would be followed by a Proclamation in the terms I have mentioned. This will not affect the question of the embodiment of the Militia, which is subject to altogether different rules, nor will it 171 have the result of calling out the Militia for training. It will simply put Her Majesty in a position to use the Reserves for filling up Her Regular Forces, for which they were intended.

§ MR. DILLWYN
asked that the Government, in taking the Vote on Account, should give some assurance that an opportunity would be given for discussion of the items before it was too late in the Session to discuss them calmly and without undue haste. These Civil Service Estimates had now assumed serious proportions, and they were the Estimates of all others which the House would be desirous to have discussed. While he trusted that there would be no obstruction to this Vote, he also hoped the Government would give an assurance that they would enable the House to discuss the Estimates before the end of June.

MR. GOLDSMID
said, he had suggested to the Government last Session a plan for facilitating the discussion of the Civil Service Estimates. The suggestion led to some observations from the Chair with regard to the practice which might be adopted by the House. It was that a statement should be made by the Secretary to the Treasury upon these Estimates, comparing them with those of the previous year, and showing where the excesses were; and, in fact, giving a general history of the Estimates. Such a statement was made last year, and he believed it was found exceedingly useful, and did much to facilitate discussion in Committee of Supply. He would ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether he proposed to adopt the same course this year; and, if so, when he proposed to make the Statement? The Secretary to the Treasury had shown a reasonable desire to bring on the Civil Service Estimates this year. They had been put down on the Paper on several occasions, and he might have had reason to expect that some of the Votes would have been discussed before to-day. In that expectation he had been disappointed; and he (Mr. Goldsmid) was not surprised that he should have been disappointed when he found, for instance, that one hon. Gentleman had put down for the same day three Notices of Motion on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Service Estimates. If every Member of the House were to indulge in so many Notices of Motion, it would 172 be impossible for the Estimates ever to be discussed; and, consequently, although he, for one, had on more than one occasion in former years expressed his opposition to Votes on Account, he could not say that this proposal of the Government, which was to take a Vote on Account for two months, was at all unreasonable, and he would be happy to give every facility to the Government to obtain the money they wanted.

MR. J. COWEN
desired to ask the Secretary of State for War a Question in elucidation of the information he had imparted to the House. He understood from the right hon. Gentleman that the Army Reserves and the Militia Reserve were to be called out. Could the right hon. Gentleman say what number of men was embodied in these Reserves?

§ MR. CHILDERS
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that Question, perhaps he will allow me to ask another in connection with the same point. The right hon. Gentleman named two of the three Reserve Forces—the Militia Reserve and the Army Reserve. By exactly the same process by which the members of those two Forces are brought into the Army, the Militia itself, or a portion of the Militia, may be embodied. It will be satisfactory to the House to know whether the machinery provided by the Act, which is identical in the three cases, is proposed to be applied to the Militia Reserve and Army Reserve only, or whether it will be applied to embody the whole or part of the Militia?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY
With respect to the Question of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen), I have to inform him that as nearly as I can recollect the First Class Army Reserve amounts, in round numbers, to about 13,000 men, and the Militia Reserve is between 25,000 and 26,000. As to the right hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Childers') Question about the embodiment of the Militia, of course the Militia will necessarily be embodied in the case of any expedition being sent out of the country. In that case, the Militia regiments linked with the regiments to be sent out would be embodied. Until such an occurrence as that, I shall not propose to embody the Militia.

§ COLONEL STANLEY
thought the House and the Government alike recognized the difficulty in which they were placed with regard to the Civil Service 173 Estimates, and he was sure the Government had no right to complain after the very frank way in which they had been met by hon. Members on the other side, and the desire they had shown to assist the Government in their present difficulty. The Government were reluctant to ask the House to accede to any Vote on Account which might be unnecessary. He might be allowed to refer to the fact that the Vote now to be proposed was to be taken for two months instead of three months. There was a desire on the part of the Government to avoid any further Vote on Account; but this was a matter very much in the power of hon. Members themselves. The hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Goldsmid) had pointed out that the Government had sought an opportunity for bringing these Votes before the House on several occasions. That opportunity had, from various circumstances, not been afforded to the Government; and though he was not able to give any positive promise—he could not predict the circumstances of the Session so far as to promise—that no further Vote would be taken on account; but the Government would use their utmost endeavours to avoid the necessity of taking one. As to what had been said about the Motions made on going into Committee of Supply, it was for hon. Members, in the exercise of their discretion, to decide what Motions they should put down; but he hoped, after the expression of feeling that evening, that the House might rely on that feeling to help the discussion of the Estimates forward. He was asked as to his making a statement on the Estimates. He had considered this matter carefully, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they had come to the conclusion that the financial circumstances of the collective Civil Service Estimates of this year were not of such an unusual character as to involve any question of policy, or to render it desirable to invite the House, at a moment when time was precious, to a discussion on abstract matters connected with the Estimates. In most of the Votes there was a decrease. He would frankly add that, not having the financial ability or the eloquence of his right hon. Friend who preceded him, he did not wish to trespass on the time on the House, but preferred rather to confine himself to such explanations of the 174 Votes as the House might express a wish to hear from him.

§ MR. PARNELL
thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman's (Colonel Stanley's) explanation of the intentions of the Government with regard to further Votes on Account was satisfactory. There was no doubt that in past years the House lad been deprived of a Constitutional right of discussing Items of Supply. It appeared this was not to be the case in future. He did not know why the Government desired to take this Vote on Account to-night. Some of the items of the Vote required lengthy discussion. The Irish Members felt it to be their duty to discuss and oppose the items for the Queen's Colleges and University. He did not think that the proper time to bring in a money Vote of this kind. The Government were pledged not to bring on this Motion at an unreasonable hour. He would make a suggestion to the Government. He might say for himself and his Friends that they did not intend to offer any opposition to the Marine Mutiny Bill in Committee. As the Government had apparently thought it necessary to take a Morning Sitting for that Bill, he proposed that the Government should postpone the Vote and give the Irish Members an opportunity of directing attention to it at the Morning Sitting, when their observations might be reported in the newspapers. This appeared to him to be a reasonable request.