COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 25 March 1878 vol 238 cc1976-2031

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Gathorne Hardy.)

COLONEL HAYTER

asked whether the Secretary of State for War would take this opportunity of stating the course he intended to pursue, with reference to the Bill? There were some points in it which required to be altered, while it contained clauses which had now become obsolete. One related to the billeting of the Guards in Westminster. That was entirely obsolete, seeing that there were two large barracks, and in all probability that system would not again be resorted to in that part of London. Then there were the clauses referring to the punishment of officers and soldiers for going out without leave. The clause which gave courts martial the power of inflicting corporal punishment on soldiers was contradicted by Clause 72, which said that no court martial could subject any soldier to corporal punishment. Two of the most important recommendations of the Royal Commission, which sat in 1869, had not been carried out; one was that the power of imprisonment given to commanding officers should be extended from seven days to 21 days, and the other was that cases of embezzlement which were not tried by the Civil Courts should be relegated to military tribunals. Last of all, there were cases of desertion. He would be very much gratified if the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would inform the House as to the mode in which he intended to constitute the Committee for the revision of the Mutiny Act, and also what were the powers which would be entrusted to it?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, he had intended, on the postponement of the Preamble of the Bill, to have made the explanation now called for; but the present moment was quite as opportune. It would be remembered that last year Sir Colman O'Loghlen had called his attention to the necessity of revising the Mutiny Act, and the question had also been considered in the time of his Predecessor by the War Office, but no conclusion had been arrived at. It seemed to him an extraordinary objection to make, that the subject was not a proper one to be referred to a Select Committee, as the Bill must go through a Committee of the House; and, when it was appointed, what he proposed to do was to submit to the Committee, through the Parliamentary draftsman, the draft of an efficient and practical measure thoroughly sifted by the legal and military authorities. When revised by the Committee, it would then come before the House with the additional weight of their authority. It was quite true that in some respects the Mutiny Act did require revision; and, for one thing, he thought it very desirable that the Committee should take into consideration the best mode of dealing with the question of its annual renewal. There were many portions of the Act which did not require annual renewal. The points which had been adverted to by the hon. and gallant Member might also be fairly considered by the Committee. There was not, however, time for inquiry this year, as it was essential that the Bill should be passed by the 25th of April; and he appealed to the House, as there would be full opportunity at another time of bringing forward Amendments, to take the Bill this year without Amendment. For this reason, he had himself put down no Amendments, as he had thought that any Amendments which might be proposed by the War Department should go before the Committee, along with those which hon. Members might desire to make on their own account. Next year, after the Bill had been before a carefully - selected Committee, it could receive whatever discussion the House might think proper to give it, before coming to a conclusion, for the permanent government of the Army. The poaching clause was designed to prevent officers taking game wrongfully when they were located where it was preserved, even though they had certificates, and he did not think that clause exposed officers to any hardships; but this question, and the expediency of relegating trials for embezzlement to civil tribunals, might safely be left to a Select Committee. With regard to the question of deserters, that was one which must be carefully considered, and a Committee would be able to investigate the different forms which desertion took. He thought that the number of men who wore at present imprisoned for offences which were not of a disgraceful character was excessive; and it would be an advantage if they could be sent to some useful employment, and kept, of course, under strict discipline, instead of being sent to prison. He trusted they might strike a Committee which would give satisfaction to the House, and to those most interested in the amendment of the Mutiny Act.

COLONEL MURE

remarked, that it was satisfactory to know that the Mutiny Act had at length engaged the attention of the authorities at the War Office. As far as he was aware, it had never been the practice to submit the provisions of an Act of Parliament for consideration to any other tribunal than a Parliamentary Committee. There was one point to which he wished to direct attention. The Commission, which in 1869 inquired into the subject of courts martial, recommended that when non-commissioned officers were reduced to the ranks, and subsequently, in consideration of their good conduct, re-instated in their former position, they should not forfeit any advantage they might have derived during the time they had been non-commissioned officers. That was a point which should receive attention, for one of the great difficulties with which they had to contend in the Army at present was to get good non-commissioned officers. Great consideration should also be given to all the provisions in this Bill which affected these officers. He wished to make an appeal to his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gal-way, who had an Amendment on the Paper. He understood that another Irish Member intended to move some 40 Amendments; but he hoped that it might turn out that he had been misinformed. He thought that the wisest course to pursue would be for the House to go into Committee at once and pass the Bill through, and defer the consideration and discussion of Amendments until the Act was referred to the Select Committee. He would, therefore, earnestly appeal to the hon. and gallant Member for Galway not to persevere with his Amendment.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, he could not withdraw his Amendment, as when he had done so on previous occasions the Government had ignored the question altogether. He was sure that before long the country would agree with him on the matter; and, therefore, as he should lose his chance if he did not bring it forward that evening, he could not adopt the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

thought before the Speaker left the Chair the House should be asked to realize the position in which those who desired to oppose the Bill were placed by the present stage of the Bill. An hon. Friend who desired to offer some Amendments was told the other night at the Table that he could not put them down, as the Bill was not marked for Committee. Considering that the second reading was taken unexpectedly at 12 o'clock on Friday night, no opportunity had been offered for putting down Amendments. This was very much to be regretted; because those who heard the protracted discussions on the Mutiny and Marino Mutiny Bills last year must be aware that considerable feeling existed in the country as to the present state of the law for the punishment of soldiers and marines. The Secretary of State for War recommended that they should at once go into Committee, and then out of Committee to pass these Bills. He stated that in future the Bills would be left to a carefully selected Committee, and that the House was not expected at any time to go minutely into the character of these Bills, as they came from the hands of persons skilled in the working of martial law. He (Mr. O'Connor Power) could only say that the condition of the Mutiny Acts, as they had existed for the last 40 or 50 years, was certainly not calculated to inspire confidence in any persistency in what the right hon. Gentleman would call the dual course. They had found that any attempt to improve these Bills, except by full and ample discussion in the House of Commons, had not been successful. If they went into Committee, he should be inclined to propose 11 or 12 Amendments. So far as words went they were very simple; but they were all in the direction of those reforms which they called for last year, and which were resisted by the right hon. Gentleman. He did not intend to refer to the case of the military prisoner, whose sudden death after his release created such deep public feeling in Ireland. He observed that the morning papers expressed a hope that they had heard the last of the case, but they had not heard the last of it. When the hon. and gallant Member for Galway had an opportunity of calling attention to the subject, he would be able to show that it was a very serious case, and that the inquiry which took place with regard to the ill-treatment of M'Carthy, who wasamili-tary prisoner, could not be looked upon as a satisfactory inquiry. Some years ago, when an inquiry arose as to the treatment of O'Donovan Rossa, and two other prisoners, two police magistrates were appointed to inquire as to whether O'Donovan Rossa had been handcuffed for 35 days in prison. The gentlemen hurried back with a Report that the statement was utterly unfounded. Later on the Government were obliged to appoint a Royal Commission, and their Report stated that it was perfectly true that O'Donovan Rossa had been handcuffed for 35 consecutive days. These Motions were fully discussed last year; and he, for one, fully expected that the right hon. Gentleman, during the Recess, would be able to devote some of his valuable time to the suggestions then made, and that the Bills introduced this year would have come before them with several of these barbarous provisions eliminated from them of which they complained—provisions in respect to flogging and prolonged solitary confinement. It would not be fair to omit reference to the statements of our military prisoners who had just been liberated. There was the case of Thomas Chambers, who had published a statement of the punishments which were inflicted. Before quoting that statement he would remark that, as the law now stood, there appeared to be no distinction made as to the offences for which soldiers were imprisoned. Insubordination and theft were offences differing widely in their character, and yet there was no distinction to mark the degree of irregularity involved. In these offences the only distinction was that for a certain class of offences you got a moderate punishment, and that for more serious offences you got a severe punishment. Insubordination had not attached to it the same moral stain as drunkenness or theft, and he contended that some distinction ought to be made. Soldiers convicted of insubordination pure and simple should not be made to herd with soldiers convicted of the more criminal and disgraceful offences—of theft and drunkenness. He also referred to the statement of Thomas Chambers, who averred, among other things, that he was refused permission to see either a Catholic priest or a Protestant clergyman. There never was a time when Her Majesty's Government should be more anxious to attract to the Army men who were not the scum of the great towns, and who from their high spirit were not unlikely to be guilty of offences which did not involve the moral stain which attached to those with whom they would, if imprisoned, be compelled to herd. Unless the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War showed that he was fully alive to the necessity of altering the existing state of things, great disappointment and dissatisfaction would be felt amongst the Army and Navy.

LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL

asked if the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been called to the recent Correspondence from South Africa, which had been laid on the Table, to the recommendations of Sir Arthur Cunyng-hame and Sir Bartle Frere, that the local forces should be placed under the Mutiny Act?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, that in the case of the Cape such a provision would be inoperative, that Colony having its own Legislature, with which it rested to make such a regulation.

MR. P. A. TAYLOR

observed, that some years ago a clause was inserted in the Mutiny Act under which a soldier was rendered liable for the support of his wife and children. As the Act now stood, however, that provision was practically nullified by a subsequent one. Now, as the Mutiny Bill was to be submitted to the consideration of a Committee, which he had no doubt would be carefully chosen, next year, and as the question to which he referred would, as a matter of course, be submitted to that Committee, it would, he felt, be a waste of the time of the House to enter further into the subject on the present occasion.

MR. O'DONNELL

complained of the advantage taken by the Government in reading the Bills a second time on Friday night, when many hon. Members were under the impression that they would not be proceeded with until the time fixed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The practice of pitching Bills headlong into Committee prevented hon. Members maturing their Amendments. He himself did not see the utility of waiting for the Eeport of the Committee when many of the anomalies were so apparent that they ought to be removed at once. He would suggest that, as there were many hon. Members who took an interest in the provisions of the Bill, the Committee upon it should be postponed until Thursday next, especially as the Government might proceed with the Civil Service Estimates at once, and no time would thus be really lost.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

thought the Government had not been well advised in pursuing the course which they had followed in regard to the Bill, and expressed his disapproval of the policy of submitting questions of great public importance to Private Committees. The Bill had attracted considerable attention for some years past, and it was impossible to discuss the Amendments to the Bill until those Amendments were on the Table. There had been an unfortunate misunderstanding as to the course of procedure on Friday; and many hon. Members were under the impression that the second reading of the Mutiny Bill was not to be taken on that day, but on Monday. It would greatly facilitate the progress of Public Business to go into Committee now as a matter of form, and then report Progress, with the view of taking the discussion on Thursday.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

explained that the Chancellor of the Exchequer never intended to mislead the House. He had been asked what would be the Business for Monday, and he replied the first thing taken would be the Mutiny Bill, moving the Committee, as the second reading was on the Orders for the night on which he made the statement.

MR. BIGGAR

observed that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer fixed the Mutiny Bills for Monday, many hon. Members were under the impression that they would not be taken on Friday.

Question put.

The House divided: —Ayes 128; Noes 12: Majority 116.—(Div. List, No. 65.)

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Preamble postponed.

Clause 1 (Articles of War made by Her Majesty to be judicially taken notice of, and copies printed by the Queen's printer to be transmitted to judges, &c.)

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, he wished to propose an Amendment to the clause on page 2, to leave out from line 13 to the end of the clause. An exception was made there that the Mutiny Act should not in any way control the decisions of the Indian Government. In fact, the Government of India was left almost perfectly free to make provision of the nature made by this Act for the Indian Army; but they were exempt from the control of that House and of Parliament. One of the provisions of the Mutiny Act said— Provided, also, that nothing in this Act contained shall affect any Articles of War enacted or in force under the authority of the Government of India. So that, in regiments commanded by Native officers, reference was to be had to the Articles of War framed by the Government of India. He did not think it was desirable that the Indian Government should get complete authority in this matter, and therefore he would move the excerption of this provision from Clause 1.

Amendmen t proposed, in page 2, line 13, to leave out from the word "Act," to the end of the Clause.—{Mr. O' Connor Power.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, that the Department of War in England had no control over Indian forces—Natives of India. Therefore, it would be a most improper thing for them to legislate for an army of which they could not know anything and could not take under their own control. The Viceroy made Articles of War for the regulation of the Natives. With regard to English soldiers in India, those came under the Mutiny Act.

COLONEL MURE

remarked that the Indian Government paid these soldiers; and, of course, if they paid these soldiers, it was necessary they should control them. It would be a monstrous proposal if the hon. Member understood the question he was dealing with; but it seemed to him that the hon. Member utterly misunderstood it.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, there could be no doubt that at present and for past years the situation in India had been as represented by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War; but he did not know that that was any reason for maintaining the existing provisions. He took it that if that House wished to extend the provisions of its own Mutiny Act to the Native Army in India, this House of Parliament would have quite sufficient authority fully to carry out their intention. It was hardly true, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had just spoken (Colonel Mure) had said, that the Indian Government paid for the Indian Army. Taking it as more exact that the Indian people did pay for that Army, the question was whether this House, having certain respect for Constitutional rights and the liberty of the subject as parts of our great traditions, and being desirous of protecting those traditions—the question was, whether this House would not be a much better judge of the rights of Native soldiers in India than the Government of India? It was said that this House knew nothing about the condition of its Native Army in India. If this were so, and the authorities of this House and the Government did not know enough of the Native Indian Army to be able to lay down some principle of rule in dealing with Native soldiers, it must be extremely difficult for some gentlemen or noblemen whom the Government chose to send out there as Governor General, and who could have only five years' experience of a country of 200,000,000 of people. It would be very strange, indeed, if these gentlemen could know so much more of the wants of the Native Army than this House, which had opportunities of obtaining information from the accumulated experience of many generations. Besides, many events had happened to shake the confidence of the House in the good government of these gentlemen. He might remind the House, also, that, on general principles, the officials and the Government in India were much less suited to deal in the last resource with the Natives of India now than they were some time ago. The mere economic changes, the mere progress of science and invention, had rendered the Government in India much less suited to deal with such important Indian questions as the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) had raised than former Governments and former officials in India. Gentlemen in India no longer looked upon India as a second home. They no longer thought of spending their whole lives there. They were no longer bound up with the people of India in the manner they used to be before rapid passages by steam enabled them to run home so often that they never formed any abiding tie with India. They always possessed more of the home feeling of Englishmen than of the Indian feeling of Indians in the sense of fellow-countrymen. If he were to remind that House of something very startling, he could only throw in a distant way a light on the present situation. But he would beg to remind the House that, under the military authority exercised in India during the Mutiny, severities were practised by Indian military authorities, the undying effect of which had been to embitter the races of India against English rule. He was quite sure that a good effect would be produced if the government of Indian military matters was subject to that House. There would then be no more of those frightful butcheries and blowing away from cannon, which alienated the population from military rule.

GENERAL SHUTE

rose to Order. He thought these allusions were rather beside the subject at issue, and did not come within the scope of the Mutiny Bill.

THE CHAIRMAN

It is no part of my duty to say whether the arguments of hon. Member for Dungarvan are reasonable; but it appears to me he is not out of Order in discussing the punishment inflicted on mutineers in the Indian Army under a clause for excepting India from the jurisdiction of the Mutiny Act.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, it was, of course, no part of his object to unduly fetter the hands of the Indian Government in case of emergency. That being granted, the concession did not exonerate that House from what he considered to be its duty in exercising such political control over the forces in India as would ensure for the Native soldiers in the Army in India that regard for the fundamental rights which was the birthright of every subject of Her Majesty. At present, this clause expressly exempted from the presumably humanitarian and just provisions of this Act the entire Native Army of India; and he did not think that at this time of day the House could allow that to pass with- out very considerable protest. The division between the European and Indian inhabitants of India was quite sufficiently broad and deep, without any artificial distinction of this kind being created. If, in the course of the discussion of this Bill, the Government could give any reasons for this exemption, he, as a Member of the House, would be ready to take these reasons of the Government into consideration. The Bill asked the House to exempt the Natives of India from the benefits of this entire Mutiny Act.

GENERAL SHUTE

rose to Order. This was not an Indian Mutiny Act, and yet they were discussing Indian troops who were not under this Act.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. and gallant Gentleman appears to be not aware that the present clause lays down the exemption of the Indian Army from these Acts, and the observations of the hon. Member appear to me to be pertinent to that question.

MR. O'DONNELL

observed, that the hon. and gallant Member was under a misapprehension as to the scope of this Bill which had just been corrected. It seemed to him that the Government should show the necessity for exempting the whole Native Indian Army from British legislation. Some effort should be made to equalize the rights of subjects of Her Majesty who happened to be in England, Ireland, or Scotland, and the same subjects of Her Majesty who happened to live in Bombay, Madras, or Bengal. Military administration in India produced a military catastrophe which was very nearly depriving Her Majesty of her Indian Dominions. Yet 20 years had been allowed to pass without subjecting the Indian Army to a proper Act. Hon. Members who recollected the utter incapacity of officers on Indian affairs during the Indian Mutiny would not, he hoped, be so completely misguided as to hand over the Army unchecked to the Indian Administration. On the grounds of common sense and public justice, he could see no reason why this exemption should be maintained. He hoped the Government would give some intimation of its intention to render the provision less sweeping, and would say that it did not intend to hand over the entire control of the Native Army in India to supreme officials, who were more ignorant even now than many Members of that House. He would not say that such a proposal was ridiculous; but it would be as nearly ridiculous as anything could be that was uttered by an hon. Member of that House. The gratitude of India would not be gained by this indifference to the rights of her people.

MR. ONSLOW

said, he would not have risen but for the remark that the Mutiny was due to military incapacity. He merely rose to defend that military system and those officers, and to give them credit for the way in which they overthrew that Mutiny. It was not necessary to go into discussion; but he should be sorry if any remark in that House went to show that the House did not appreciate the services of those officers. It should be remembered that the Rules for the Army were not laid by officers, but by the Governor and Council and the Commander-in-Chief, by whom military affairs were thoroughly well discussed. This Mutiny Bill was made at a time when there was scarcely any Indian Army, and never was intended, even in a small degree, to apply to the Army in India. If separate clauses were to be introduced into this Bill for the Army in India, the Mutiny Bill would have to be much larger than it was at present. He could not but think that the remarks of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. O'Donnell) were out of place. When the Mutiny Bill was first passed there was scarcely any Indian Army, and what troops there were in India were under a separate jurisdiction and a separate military system. If regulations were introduced into all the clauses to meet the case of the Native Army in India, the Mutiny Bill would become three or four times longer than it was now.

MR. BIGGAR

said, it was the duty and the privilege, and it was also to the interest of England, that the penal laws imposing punishments upon the Native soldiers in India should be as moderate as possible. If a small sprinkling of civilians were added to the Military Council, it would temper their decisions with moderation. The use of unnecessary severity would tend to alienate the Indian soldiers from the interest of this country; but it seemed that the sole object of hon. Gentlemen connected with the Army was to make the Service as unpopular as possible. The most un- reasonable and absurd rules had been imposed upon the Native Indians; and, at times like the Indian Mutiny, scandalous severity, such as blowing from guns, was used. The Indian officers acted as if they had not, in a very high degree, the honour of England at heart, but thought more of gratifying their revenge.

MR. PARNELL

observed, that the regulation of the Native Indian troops was a subject upon which the House might fairly legislate. The Mutiny Bills for the Army and Navy had been introduced year after year with little alteration; and, if the matter were undertaken, there would be little difficulty in framing laws for the Native Forces in India similar to those provided for British European troops in all parts of the world. It was necessary that there should be some provisions for the preservation of discipline in the Military and Naval Forces. But when they came to consider the position of the people of India with regard to the question, there was necessity for a very careful and cautious application of the Mutiny Acts to them. By the clause in question, the House handed over the right of dealing with these very serious matters to the Governor General and Council. The recollection of the manner in which the Indian military authorities suppressed the Mutiny must be in the minds of all men; and, though the gallantry of the European troops was incontestable, yet there was no justification for some of the retaliatory measures adopted by them. Such punishments were not authorized to be inflicted on European soldiers by the Bill; yet the Indian officials were empowered by it to impose any punishment they pleased on the Native troops. The House would fail in its duty if it neglected that opportunity of providing for the proper maintenance of military discipline in India. He begged to support the Amendment, and hoped the question would receive the attention of the Select Committee, which, he understood, had been appointed to consider the whole matter.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

had heard nothing from hon. Members, either on the Treasury Bench or elsewhere, which could induce him to abstain from going to a division upon this question. He knew well from experience that his following in the Lobby would be but small; but he was willing to bear the odium of the minority, as he considered that the arguments he had raised had not been fairly answered on the other side.

GENERAL SHUTE

said, the Mutiny Act was most fully debated last Session. The Secretary of State for War had also promised that a Select Committee should be appointed to go thoroughly into the whole subject of the administration of military law. Under these circumstances, he thought that hon. Gentlemen opposite, might leave the matter to be dealt with when the proper time arrived. He might mention, for the information of the House, that the Indian Mutiny Act was a more lenient one than that enforced in this country. As an instance, corporal punishment was done away with in the Indian Army in 1832 by Lord William Bentinck, more than a quarter of a century before the same course was adopted, in the English Mutiny Act. In other respects, also, the discipline had not been so severe, which, in the opinion of many officers, was one cause of the Mutiny in Bengal.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

was quite unprepared to say whether the Mutiny Act should be applied to India without having a great deal more information on the subject. India was one of the countries held by conquest, which was not represented in Parliament, and whose condition could not be considered at the same time as that of England. He did not at all know that, considering caste and religion, the present Mutiny Acts would be at all applicable to India. If the Amendment were pressed, he should not vote for it; and it would have been much better if the subject could have been adjourned until Thursday, when Members could have had Notice of the Amendments that were to be proposed.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

remarked, that at the time of the Indian Mutiny the European troops rather erred on the side of mercy. In his opinion, the Amendment proposed was a mere piece of obstruction.

MR. PARNELL

said, that the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) had referred to India as a conquered country, and had given that as a reason why the same Constitutional law could not be applied there as was enforced in England. The same argument would apply to Ireland, which was as much a conquered country as India. He submitted that what had just fallen from the hon. Member for Galway was entirely inconsistent with every utterance he had yet made in the House. The course which the Government had taken in pressing the Bill into Committee was exceedingly inconvenient, and did not afford opportunities for discussing the principles of the measure. Moreover, the second reading was taken unexpectedly on Friday night. He hoped the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) would press his Amendment to a division.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

had always understood that Ireland was not a conquered country, and that, therefore, she would not submit to the laws which were imposed upon conquered countries. He should understand that Ireland was in the same position as India, when he found India returning Representatives to Parliament. It was unreasonable to ask that the crude notions of hon. Gentlemen with regard to this Bill should be applied so as to affect the position of the Native Forces in India.

MR. MACDONALD

was unwilling to support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Mayo, but wished strongly to deprecate the language used with reference to it by the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew (Colonel Mure). As he understood the language used, it amounted to this—that he would consider the Amendment worthy of his attention if the hon. Member for Mayo understood anything about the question; and he further added that he looked upon his proposition as monstrous. That was not the first time language of a similar character had come from the same quarter; and it would tend to raise a good deal of obstruction to the progress of the Bill. Though personally he could not support the Amendment, he felt bound to say that, so far as he had seen, the hon. Member for Mayo never spoke on a subject that he did not fully understand. If the Ministry felt flattered by the support of the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrewshire, he, for one, feared they made a mistake.

MR. BIGGAR

said, the only object of proposing the Amendment was to point to what the framers of it believed to be defects in the Bill.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

remarked, that it was unfair to ask the House to apply the present Bill to India, without first explaining what was the present state of the law in India.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, that the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. -Mitchell Henry) did not appreciate the scope of the Amendment. What the hon. Member for Mayo objected to was not the existing state of the Indian law on this subject, but the withdrawal of the military law from the cognizance of Parliament. He could not conceive why the hon. Member for Galway deserted his own principles in this flagrant manner. The hon. Member objected to different races being mixed up under the same rule; but that hon. Member was in the constant habit of urging Irish Members to seek to extend to Ireland Bills adopted for England. It was quite certain that England would never give any other country better laws than she adopted for herself. It might, therefore, be assumed that the Indian Mutiny Act was worse than the English law on the same subject. Having denounced the conduct of the English authorities in the suppression of the Mutiny, in regard to blowing from the guns, in condemning condemned men to act as hangmen and otherwise, the hon. Member said that these things rendered it necessary to supervise closely the conduct of the Indian military authorities. With every admiration for the military virtues and conduct of our troops in India, it was necessary to take precautions against the repetition of cruelties such as those he had mentioned. It was most important that they should extend, both to the English Army in India and to the Native Army, those improvements in military administration and the administration of military justice which had been introduced into the Mutiny Act with reference to the English Army at home. The provisions of the Mutiny Act had lately been adapted to the Colonial Forces in South Africa; and he did not see why that in this case it should not also be extended to Ma-hommedans, Radjpoots, and Gourkas. If they could pass over diversities of race in South Africa, he did not see why they should regard them in India, in regard to subjects of the Queen, serving under the same flag. The exception of India from the operation of this Act was inconsistent with the general extension to the Army of the Queen.

DR. KENEALY

said, that he had heard no reason yet why the Mutiny Act should not apply as well to soldiers in the Indian Service, as to those who were in our Home Service. It would be a wise measure if there were one and the same military law for India and for the United Kingdom, and he should support the Amendment unless he heard some good reason why different laws should prevail in the two countries. He was surprised, also, why this Bill should have been forced on by, what he would not call "sharp practice" on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, but by what he considered an undue exercise of a course that he could not commend. The conduct of the Government last Friday was one that was open to observation. It was perfectly well known that the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) had an Amendment on the Paper, to which both he and other Members attached importance. In his temporary absence, without any notice, and to the surprise of everyone, the right hon. Gentleman had suddenly carried the second reading of the Bill, and had thus got it smuggled into Committee without debate. If this had not been done hon. Members would probably have been more inclined to give way. At present they felt that they had not been fairly treated. Hence, they felt that they were fully entitled to use all means, not of obstruction, but of legitimate opposition. He himself was opposed to this clause on the broad ground that the time had come when the people of India, military as well as civil, should be legislated for in the same manner as the people of England; nor could there be any real loyalty in India until this was so. The people of India had not the same boundless faith in the Indian Government which might be desired. On the contrary, he believed that the whole of Hindostan was at this present moment in a state of hidden disaffection, if not of smothered rebellion, and that it only waited for the right hon. Gentleman to be at war with Russia for that feeling to break out in a dread explosion. Our insolence, our injustice, our tyranny in Hindostan would produce fruits of blood. He was sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman the Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) speak of India as a "conquered country." Without expressing any opinion as to how that may have been, he hardly thought it wise, just now, to anger the Natives by thus wounding their pride, and reminding them that they were slaves. Language of this kind, impolitic conduct, and perhaps gross ignorance of the East Indian Government, coupled possibly with Russian intrigue at the bottom, had forced India into revolt before; and our present management of that great Dependency was well calculated to do the same again. He repeated his belief that the right hon. Gentleman had brought the whole of this opposition on himself by smuggling the Bill through as he had.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

deprecated the tone in which the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Dr. Kenealy) and the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) had approached the consideration of this measure. The only conclusion he could come to upon hearing their remarks was that they had not mastered the A B C of the question. So far as there was anything like consecutiveness or relevancy in the remarks made by the latter hon. Member, he gathered that he believed our Indian Forces were excluded from the operation of this Bill because they were subjected to a code of discipline heavier and more severe. But exactly the reverse of this was the case. The soldiers in our Indian Army were in a totally different position from the rest of our Forces; and if their opinion were asked upon the matter, it would be found that about the last thing they would propose would be to be brought under the operation of this law. The regulations under which our Indian soldiers served were in all respects more lenient, more genial, and more paternal than those applied to English soldiers; not because there was any invidious distinction between soldiers serving in India and England, but because, from the industrial conditions of the two countries, it was found that while here we had difficulty in maintaining the number of our soldiers at the proper complement, the state of civil life being so prosperous; whereas there, there was not seven, but 14, men waiting to enlist upon the occurrence of every vacancy for a private soldier. A good deal of unnecessary excitement had been expended by certain hon. Members upon this Bill, not, so far as he could see, by reason of any concern they might have in its merits; but because, by a lapse of their own, they found it necessary to explain to their constituents why, although the second reading of the Bill was taken at an early hour comparatively on Friday night, they were not in their places to raise their promised debate. But that was not the reason why their Amendments were not now received by the Committee—the Amendments themselves were utterly impracticable and without weight.

MR. O'DONNELL

felt bound to express his obligations to the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland (Sir Henry Havelock) for the attention with which he had condescended to notice the part he had taken in the debate. Doubtless the hon. and gallant Gentleman, not having placed his sword at the disposal of the Emperor of Russia, thought it right to occupy his leisure in lecturing Members for Irish constituencies upon the position they should assume in matters coming before that House. He would not say, in reply to the hon. and gallant Member's statement, that laughter was the fitting answer to him, or that "empty laughter betokeneth the empty mind;" but he would point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the manner in which he had contributed to the debate would not be likely to raise his character for calmness and statesmanship. The fact was adduced that there were many candidates for every vacancy in a regiment in India. But one of the reasons which was more than suspected to lie at the bottom of the applications for service in India was the increasing desire of the warlike caste to pass through that very efficient school of military skill and science—the British Native Army of India. If hon. Members would consult some of the most recent works on military administration in India, they would find that men desired to pass through the Native Army of India, because, having done so, they were eagerly sought for by Native Potentates, who gave them high positions in their armies. A dangerously large element in the Native independent armies of India was composed of men who had entered our Service for the purpose of qualifying for service with Scindiah, Holkar, and the Nizam. It was said the administration of India was of a paternal character; but that was simply the smooth word for arbitrary government, which was one of the very things from which they desired to relieve the Native Army of India. Why was it that Colonial and Native Forces in our Dominions in other parts of the world, composed of races as diverse from our own as any represented in India, were to be brought, or might be brought, under the operation of the Mutiny Act, when the Natives of India were excluded from it? This was not all. The British officers in the Native regiments could appeal to a different code of law, and be tried by a different procedure, from those applicable to their brother officers of a different colour. Thus, officers of British birth were separated by this exclusive legislation from real comradeship with their brethren in arms. Native officers complained of this discrimination, and he appealed to them to remove the complaint by removing the grievance.

DR. KENEALY

said, he did not know what right the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland (Sir Henry Havelock) had to set himself up as lecturer or monitor-general to Members of that House. Neither his military nor political position entitled him to do so. He presumed to attack Gentlemen who were no place-hunters, who were not political adventurers, nor hunters after mean and miserable promotion. On the contrary, they were persons of honour, of independence, of patriotism; and they were as proud of hating Russia as the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland was of being her devoted admirer. Yet the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland had presumed to warn them as to what their constituencies would do when the Election time came. He knew a little of Sunderland, and he conveyed a similar warning to its Member, whose constituents, he believed, were considerably disaffected towards him, and would let him know what they felt at the proper time. The course which he had pursued with reference to Russia had excited a feeling of disgust among his constituents which he would find to his cost at the next Election. The language used in that House by the hon. and gallant Member showed what sort of persons were in the Indian Army, and what they might do there, when they thus spoke here.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member must know that he cannot, on the Question now before the Committee, use language impugning generally the personal character of officers in Her Majesty's Service.

DR. KENEALY

said, he was not impugning the character of officers in Her Majesty's Service; he merely spoke-of the language which had just been used by the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member has used language which appears to be disrespectful to the general character of the officers of the Indian Army. I must require the hon. Member not to repeat that language.

DR. KENEALY

said, he was sorry if he had been out of Order; but he must maintain that the whole conduct of the officers of that Army during the Indian Mutiny was calculated to do the greatest possible injury to the interests of British rule in Hindostan. ["No, no!"] The hon. and gallant Admiral called "No." Perhaps he had not studied the subject very deeply. The hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland had followed the assertion of the hon. and gallant General the Member for Brighton (General Shute), that the Indian Mutiny Law was milder than our own; but he had offered no proof of that extraordinary statement. For his own part, he could not credit it. And if it were true, to what did it amount? Why, to this— that our own soldiers were so much worse than the Native soldiers that they required more severe, stern, and cruel discipline. A worse censure on English soldiers could not be passed. This debate was not calculated to serve us in the East. When he was interrupted he was about to show how the people were insulted in India, as exemplified by the language of the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland—language which did not certainly come from any great military authority; for although the hon. and gallant Gentleman bore a great name, he would pardon him for reminding him that he was only a very small shadow of that great name. The arguments which had been advanced in this discussion had, he might add, received no answer from the Treasury bench, whose occupants were greatly mistaken if they thought that they derived any particular honour or advantage from the peculiar style of oratory, or the services of the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland.

SIR HENRY HAVELOCK

did not think it necessary to take up the cudgels for the Services assailed, for they re- quired no defence at the hands of anyone. Nor would he follow the hon. Member (Dr. Kenealy) further, than to say this. The hon. Member (Dr. Kenealy) assumed to know the feelings at Sunderland. He had reason to know something of them; for on a late occasion he encountered a reception there which proved to be the harbinger of many similar receptions he had met with all over the country. He (Sir Henry Havelock) was never prouder of the people of Sunderland than when they thus treated the hon. Member according to his merits. As for himself, believing that he understood his constituents on this question, he should meet them with pleasure whenever it was necessary.

MR. PARNELL

said, that on Thursday last he entertained apprehensions that the engagement entered into on behalf of the Government would not be kept. On Thursday night he went to the Clerk of the House, and asked that official to take some of his Amendments in Committee.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY,

interposing, said, the hon. Member for Meath had not thought it inconsistent with the duties of an hon. Member to say that he understood and felt that the Government would not keep an engagement which they had made. He denied that the supposed engagement was made; but if the hon. Member for Meath used such language, he must call upon the Chairman to put an end to it.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, he had not understood the hon. Member for Meath to say so. If the Chairman's recollection were the same as his own, he would ask him to rule that the Secretary of State had not sustained his point of Order.

THE CHAIRMAN

observed, that the hon. Member who had just spoken desired to raise a different issue from that which was raised by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman, rising in his place, objected to certain words which appeared to him to impute a deliberate breach of faith to Her Majesty's Government. He thought the words used would bear that construction, and in any such sense he must require the hon. Member for Meath to withdraw them.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

wished to know whether it was out of Order to attribute a breach of faith to Her Ma- jesty's present Government, or whatever Government might be in power? His recollection served him perfectly, and he could state that the noble Lord now at the head of Her Majesty's Government had repeatedly, in his hearing, attributed in that House deliberate breaches of faith to the Government in the conduct of the Business of the House. He had heard the noble Lord do this over and over again.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, he could offer no opinion on the matter just referred to by the hon. Member for Galway. He desired to point out, however, that if any language wore used attributing a breach of faith to any Gentleman in that House it was out of Order.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

objected altogether to being placed under the disadvantage of having his point misunderstood. His hon. Friend did not attribute any deliberate breach of faith to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. His hon. Friend spoke of the Government, and of the Government only. To say that the Government itself had not kept faith with the House was a totally different thing from saying that a particular Member of the Government had been guilty of a breach of faith. There was a great distinction to be drawn between a Government and the individual Members of which it was composed. His hon. Friend said he believed the Government had no intention to keep their promise to give him facilities for the discussion of this Bill. In his judgment, there was in this nothing personal to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, the hon. Member for Galway might take his own view of what was insulting. The hon. Member for Meath had said that he (Mr. Hardy) had personally given an engagement, and he added that he foresaw it would not be kept. He took that as an insult. He was perfectly satisfied with the position in which the matter stood, and he now asked that the debate might be proceeded with.

MR. PARNELL

observed, that in stating the reasons why his Amendments were not upon the Paper, he explained that he felt apprehensive on Thursday last that the engagement would not be kept which he understood the Govern- ment had entered into in reply to a Question put by him early in the Session to the Secretary of State for War. That engagement, as he understood it, was that the Government would afford an opportunity of discussing the principle of this Bill on the second reading. The right hon. Gentleman now stated that he never entered into such an engagement. That being so, of course he had nothing more to say on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman had the best right to interpret his own words, and, of course, he must now consider that the right hon. Gentleman did not enter into the supposed engagement.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, he must point out to the Committee that the language used by the hon. Member for Meath was of a somewhat ambiguous character. It was interpreted by the right hon. Gentleman as conveying a direct personal affront to himself. For his own part, he was of opinion that the words did not necessarily bear that construction. The Committee would remember that, when appealed to on the subject, he placed the matter before the hon. Member for Meath in such a manner as to afford him an opportunity of disavowing any intention to give personal offence. He understood that the hon. Member for Meath did make this disavowal.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, he did not give an engagement that the Bill would not come on on Friday last. It came on at a quarter-past 11 o'clock—? not a time unsuited for discussion—and it must be borne in mind that he was not responsible for the Bill not being discussed.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

asked, whether he must understand that no such thing as a breach of faith on the part of an English Government was possible? Let the Bill about the Transvaal last year answer that question.

MR. PARNELL

remarked, that the matter had resolved itself into a difference of opinion between the Secretary of State for War and himself. He did not think a quarter-past 11 was a right time to bring on such a Bill as this on a Friday night.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, it was admitted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the Mutiny Bill would be taken on Monday. It had been explained to-night that the right hon. Baronet meant that it would be taken in Committee on Monday. But surely, when hon. Members heard it announced that a Bill would be taken on Monday, they had a right to assume that the second reading would be taken on that day.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

I said the Mutiny Bill would come on to-day—that was, of course, in whatever stage it happened to be.

MR. BIGGAR

was referring to this subject, when—

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the question raised on the point of Order was as to certain words which had been used by the hon. Member for Meath. It was out of Order to discuss answers given by different Members of the Government.

Question put.

The Committee divided: —Ayes 137; Noes 9: Majority 128. —(Div. List, No. 66.)

Clause 2 (Persons subject to this Act).

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, it was not quite clear how far the Militia would be affected by this clause, even when they were not actually embodied. It appeared to him that it was very injudicious to include the Militia in a clause of this character, and to place them under the provisions of this Bill. He therefore moved the omission of the words "or the Militia," the effect of which Amendment would be to exclude the Militia from the operation of the Bill.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 26, to leave out the words "or the Militia."—{Mr. C Connor Power.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'or the Militia' stand part of the Clause."

MR. PARNELL

hoped the Secretary of State for War would give some explanation of the meaning of this clause, which, he believed, was introduced for the first. time last Session. He did not see much objection to the clause if it only extended to the Militia when they were embodied.

Question put.

The Committee divided: —Ayes 145; Noes 8: Majority 137.—(Div. List, No. 67.)

On Question. "That the Clause stand part of the Bill?"

MR. O'DONNELL

called attention to the fact that a large number of persons who were practically civilians — store directors, surveyors, draftsmen, storekeepers, veterinary surgeons, medical storekeepers, apothecaries, and other non-combatants —? were apparently included in the provisions of the Act. He wished to know whether this ought to be the case, and whether such persons ought to be under the ordinary laws of the Army in time of peace?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, the persons referred to were parts of the Army just as much so as the combatants who were engaged. He might add that these persons would feel themselves aggrieved if they were not so regarded.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 3 (Provisions of this Act to extend to Jersey, Guernsey, &c), agreed to.

Clause 4 (Colonial and foreign troops in Her Majesty's pay to be subject to provisions of this Act).

MR. O'DONNELL

said, he noticed that the clause applied to all soldiers who were enlisted in distant parts of the Empire with the exception of India, and he wanted to know why they also were not included?

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

replied that wherever Her Majesty's officers raised a contingent abroad they were treated as parts of the Regular Army, just in the same way as though they were English, Irish, or Scotch.

MR. O'DONNELL

could not see why the same rule should not apply to the Native troops employed in the Indian Army.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 (Provisions as to the militia or yeomanry or volunteer corps or reserve forces) agreed, to.

Clause 6 (Power to contribute courts martial).

MAJOR NOLAN

wished for information as to the exact powers of the Maltese Army, enlisted and enrolled on the Island. He asked this mainly in view of officers in that force being chosen to sit upon courts martial.

MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK

replied that the officers in the Maltese regiment, whose pay was provided for in the Parliamentary Estimates, were members of the Regular Army of the Queen to all intents and purposes. It followed, therefore, that any officer in the Maltese regiment was perfectly competent to sit as a member of a court martial.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 (Powers of district of garrison courts martial).

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

moved, in page 6, line 8, to omit the word. "seven," in order to insert the word "five." The hon. Member said, his object was to reduce the number of officers who should form a court martial. He thought a court of five would be sufficiently large to meet all the ends of justice, and that a court so constituted would be much less expensive than a court of the larger numbers. The appointing officers to courts martial, also, had the effect of withdrawing them from their regimental duties, and the regiments suffered in consequence. This was the more important by reason of the fact that many of the regiments were short of officers, owing to the working of the depot system, which had disarranged the whole service of the Army. He thought it ought to be left to the Generals in charge of districts to fix the number of officers at either five or seven who should form district courts martial, such determination to be fixed in accordance with the number of officers who could be spared.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

opposed the Amendment, as being one which had simply been drawn in order to relieve officers from some of their duties which they found rather onerous and disagreeable. He did not know what officers would do in time of peace if they were not employed in looking after the discipline of the Army. He protested strongly against any diminution in the number of the tribunals before which the gallant fellows who served the Queen should be tried, and by whom they might be deprived of liberty and degraded in rank. It was found convenient to empanel a jury of 12 men for the trial of a civilian charged with a criminal offence, and he saw no reason why a soldier should be tried by a jury of five without a Judge. The Amendment was a reactionary one, and was altogether opposed to the principles of modern reform.

MR. PARNELL

also opposed the Amendment, on the ground that the powers given to garrison and district courts martial were too wide to be exercised by a smaller number of officers. He should certainly have thought the hon. and gallant Member for Leitrim (Major O'Beirne) would have striven rather to increase than to diminish the number of a court martial.

MAJOR NOLAN

did not think the private soldiers would be aggrieved by the fact that they were tried by a court smaller in number than seven. It had not been the custom of late to include young officers in courts martial; and it was not, therefore, necessary to put on old and experienced officers to instruct them in their duties. To decrease the number of officers would save much trouble and expense, and would also set many officers free for the instruction of the men.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 10 to 15, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Judgment of death may be commuted for penal servitude or other punishments).

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

called attention to the number of successive days on which solitary confinement might be inflicted upon offending soldiers, and moved, in page 9, line 8, to omit the word "seven," in order to insert the word "three." The effect of the Amendment would be to render it impossible to inflict solitary confinement on more than three successive days.

Amendment proposed, in page 9, line 8, to leave out the word "seven," and insert the word"three."—(Mr. O'Connor Power.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Clause."

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

was sorry he could not accept the Amendment, particularly at the present time, when it was intended to refer the whole subject-matter of the Bill to a Select Committee. What was called solitary confinement, he was informed, as it used to exist, existed no longer. The prisoners were kept in separate rooms; but persons were admitted to them for all kind of purposes, and they were not kept in extreme solitude. All he could now say was, that the provisions in regard to discipline would be under the General Prisons' arrangements.

MR. PARNELL

said, this had not been done at present, although the regulations under the Prisons Act had been issued. There was also a considerable difference between solitary confinement inflicted as the consequence of a court martial, and the same class of punishment when it was inflicted for a breach of prison rules. If the punishment was to be similar to that inflicted in penal-servitude establishments, it would be very severe indeed. Mr. Michael Davitt, who had recently been released from penal servitude, had given an account of his experiences, which showed that except a prisoner was, physically, very strong, he could not endure the punishment without suffering terribly in health. One solitary spell of such discipline inflicted for a single offence was vastly different from several spells of seven days' each, with only seven days of interval, extending over a long term of imprisonment or penal servitude. He hoped the Select Committee which was to sit upon the question would carefully consider the matter, and would see their way to making some humane suggestions which might prove acceptable to the Secretary of State for War. He would, therefore, suggest as a temporary means of settling the question, that there should not be more than seven days of solitary confinement in any period of 28 days' imprisonment. This would, he thought, be a sufficient concession, without substituting, as it had been proposed to do, three days for seven as the period for which solitary confinement could be inflicted.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

hoped the right hon. Gentleman would postpone the clause, in order that an inquiry might be made as to what was the real nature of solitary confinement; because the right hon. Gentleman had told the Committee that this punishment was not what it used to be, and that it was not by any means of so severe a character as some hon. Members seemed to suppose. But, on the other hand, his hon. Friend (Mr. Parnell), who had made himself acquainted with this subject, stated that solitary confinement meant solitary con- finement as it was ordinarily understood—namely, absolute seclusion in a cell, with bread and water for diet, and without the prisoner seeing any human being except the person who brought him food. That description did not accord with the right hon. Gentleman's explanation of the nature of the punishment; and if his hon. Friend's account was correct, surely the right hon. Gentleman would admit that three days was quite a sufficient period for such torture as that. This question of solitary confinement had been thoroughly investigated in America, at the instance of philanthropists, and it had been given up there, because the severity of the punishment drove so many prisoners into insanity. If it was the fact that the sentence of solitary confinement meant a solitary cell, water, and 15 ounces of bread for each day, and no communication with a human creature, he put it to the right hon. Gentleman whether that was a punishment which he would wish to be prolonged beyond three days? Under the circumstances, it was not unreasonable to ask the right hon. Gentleman to consent to the postponement of the clause.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

observed, that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mitchell Henry) seemed to suppose that there had been no inquiry upon the subject. The fact was, that he had, as Secretary of State for War, made inquiry of the Director of Convict Prisons, who informed him that, for a very long time, what was called "solitary confinement" was really not different from the punishment of the other prisoners, with the exception of the exercise being taken alone, and not with the other prisoners. He understood the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) to refer to the punishment for prison offences, with which this had nothing to do. He had not made inquiry into the punishment for prison offences. The sentences given by the courts martial were treated separately.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

referring to the last remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, reminded the Committee that flogging was one of the punishments inflicted in convict prisons. The object of the clause was to enable courts martial, in addition to the term of imprisonment, to determine that that imprisonment should partake of solitary confinement. He could not accept the statement of the Secretary of State for War exactly as the right hon. Gentleman had given it. His reason for not accepting that explanation was, that he had himself been to see the cells at Chatham, where prisoners had been recently confined. During his visit there, his attention was drawn to one of the cells. "Solitary" was the term applied to those cells, and they had been accurately described by the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell), with this addition—that the cells were almost completely dark, the windows being covered over, save a few perforations in the iron shutter, through which very little light indeed was admitted. Courts martial might not only order a man to be flogged, but they could also add this most extraordinary and painful solitary confinement described by the hon. Member (Mr. Parnell). The Secretary of State for War had stated that he would undertake that the punishment should be carried out according to the Prisons Act passed last Session, or in compliance with the Rules framed under that Act. Those Rules had been recently printed; and, for his part, he must confess, after looking over them, that he had no confidence in the Home Secretary's desire to introduce rules on this subject. After all the discussions which had taken place in the previous Session, the Prison Rules laid on the table of the House afforded no guarantee whatever, to his mind, that the punishment of solitary confinement, whether in the Army, Navy, or anywhere, could be safely regulated according to the principles embodied in the Rules. Therefore, he thought he and his hon. Friends would be justified in taking the opinion of the Committee on the question. This clause was of a most serious character, for it provided that offenders might be ordered to be kept in penal servitude for any term not less than five years, or to suffer a less term of imprisonment with or without hard labour or with or without solitary confinement. Take the case of a military offender. He was sent to Chatham, for instance. The sentence was five years' penal servitude; but the court martial said a portion of the time should be spent in solitary confinement. He supposed the right hon. Gentleman would admit that it was fair to assume that solitary confinement at Chatham would be carried out according to the practices and rules of that prison. If so, the inference was perfectly clear that the solitary confinement contemplated in this clause was of a very severe and painful character. If the Committee had before them a list of the number of men who had been driven mad from the effects of this punishment they would be astounded. The only word in the English language that fitly expressed this kind of punishment was"torture"—it was a system of torture, which he, for one, strongly denounced; a system which neither reformed the criminal actually brought under it, nor deterred the intending criminal. He was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman had not yet seen his way to the adoption of an Amendment which would meet the views of the Committee on the subject.

MR. PARNELL

said, the statement of the Secretary of State for War, that solitary confinement did not, in fact, mean solitary confinement as ordinarily understood, was, to a certain extent, less unsatisfactory than might be expected. The Secretary of State for War did not seem to know what was the treatment received by soldiers and marines who were sentenced to solitary confinement. The right hon. Gentleman had told the Committee that he had been assured by the Director of Convict Prisons that it meant separate confinement—that the treatment was that which prisoners received who were sentenced to separate confinement. In the Rules laid on the Table by the Home Secretary, there were not any relating to penal servitude establishments, and the Committee were, therefore, entirely in the dark as to what this particular treatment really was to be, when a prisoner received sentence of solitary confinement. Members were entitled to the information. Would, therefore, the Secretary of State for War lay on the Table Copies of the Rules which regulated the treatment of prisoners sentenced by courts martial to periods of imprisonment accompanied by solitary confinement? When such Rules were laid on the Table, the House would have an opportunity of considering them. If the right hon. Gentleman would assent to that course, he thought his hon. Friend the Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) would not object to withdraw his Amendment. They knew some instances of the effect of the treatment of which they complained. One example was the case of Gunner Charlton, who was sentenced to solitary confinement, whose feet were bitten off by frost, and who afterwards died in the streets—a victim of this kind of punishment. The Committee knew, also, what solitary confinement meant as a punishment for breaches of discipline; but they did not know what it meant as part of the sentence of a court martial under this Bill. That was the information which they wanted.

MR. DILLWYN

said, the Committee seemed agreed on this point, that solitary confinement was too severe if the punishment extended over a lengthened period. Therefore, it was suggested that the period should be diminished, if solitary confinement meant what was ordinarily understood by the expression. If, on the other hand, it meant, in this instance, only separate confinement, that entirely altered the question. The Committee ought to be distinctly informed what solitary confinement really was in the present instance. Probably the period defined by the Act of Parliament was a very proper period for separate confinement, as explained by the Secretary of State for War; but many hon. Members agreed that the term was too long for solitary confinement, taking that expression in its common acceptation. Therefore, it was only reasonable that the right hon. Gentleman should give clear information on the point, and set the minds of hon. Members at rest.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

suggested that, if the description of solitary confinement, as given by the right hon. Gentleman was correct, the difficulty might be met by simply substituting the word "separate" for "solitary."

DR. KENEALY

asked the right hon. Gentleman to explain the distinction between separate and solitary confinement. How could they justify solitary confinement, as described by hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House, for seven days, during which time the prisoner was entirely separated from all human society, and fed with 16 ounces of bread and water every 24 hours? At Chatham it meant being incarcerated in a dungeon, into which light was admitted only by a small aperture, so that the prisoner was not only half-starved, but kept in darkness for a whole week. The state of the case, however, was rendered far more lamentable when they were told that the tendency of solitary confinement was, after a certain time, to induce insanity. In America solitary confinement had been discontinued for that very reason. He joined in the appeal for the postponement of the clause until some investigation was made into the subject. In every county in England lunacy and insanity had been on the increase; whether that fact was due in any way to the number of prisoners kept in solitary confinement he did not know; but he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, on the grounds of humanity, to consider the request now addressed to him. The right hon. Gentleman would suffer no loss by allowing the matter to be deferred.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

could not agree with the hon. Member who had last spoken, that he would lose nothing by delaying this matter until the Report of the Committee. On the contrary, from the view which appeared to be taken of this Bill by some hon. Members, he did not know that he had a moment to spare in pressing it on. Therefore, instead of postponing any clause of the Bill, he thought it would be necessary for him to ask the House to take some steps for an extra Sitting, in order that the Bill might be passed in time. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power), he was sorry that he could not accede to it. There was no such term known in prison regulations as "separate confinement." He had made careful inquiry as to the mode in which these prisoners were dealt with who were subjected to what was called "separate confinement." They were not, as some hon. Members seemed to suppose, shut up alone in their cells and left entirely to themselves; but were treated, visited, and fed in the same way as other prisoners. They took their exercise solitarily, and not with the others, and that was the only difference— so he had been assured by the Director of Convict Prisons; and, such being the case, he must insist upon the passing of the clause as it stood.

MR. SULLIVAN,

speaking from some little experience in connection with prisons, said, that solitary confinement was a practice observed in Ireland, for he had heard a governor threaten prisoners With "solitary" for a week if they committed a breach of the rules.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

explained, that he had admitted that solitary confinement was a punishment applied for prison offences.

MR. SULLIVAN

urged the right hon. Gentleman to introduce into the clause some Amendment which would embody his own view of solitary confinement under this Bill.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, the right hon. Gentleman had remarked that the word "separate" was not expressed in the Prison Rules. If it was not, surely it could be expressed as easily as "solitary." He was surprised at the right hon. Gentleman's perseverance in opposing this most reasonable Amendment.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

thought the Government were not treating the Committee fairly in connection with this matter. There were hon. Members on that side of the House who were as anxious that the Mutiny Bill should pass as hon. Gentlemen were on the opposite benches. For his own part, he had dissociated himself from those hon. Members with whom he usually acted, and had voted with the Government because he thought the Amendments, on. which the Committee had divided, were unreasonable proposals. But now it appeared that the Government had made up their mind that the Bill should pass verbatim et literatim; and, that being so, they could not be astonished at the opposition which they had provoked. The right hon. Gentleman had now informed the Committee that solitary confinement differed from ordinary punishment only in the fact that the criminal took his exercise alone. Why was not that explanation given before? If that was the meaning of solitary confinement— and the right hon. Gentleman, he was sure, believed it was the correct meaning—he would be quite content, for his own part, to let the clause pass; but he did beg the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact, that in Chatham there were a number of military prisoners confined; and his belief was that solitary confinement there did not mean merely that the man took his exercise by himself. When this clause passed, he hoped that his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Connor Power) would take the earliest opportunity of moving for a Return on the subject, showing the exact nature of the punishments inflicted in all military prisons, whether by solitary or separate confinement.

MR. PARNELL

thought the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken in supposing that the term "separate" was not understood in prison parlance. As a matter of fact, Millbank Prison was entirely devoted to separate confinement; and if solitary confinement meant, in the present Bill, only separate confinement as adopted at Millbank Prison, he should be satisfied; but what it really did imply should be stated, in black and white, in this Bill. Every prisoner sentenced to penal servitude underwent a probationary period of separate confinement—that was to say, he was confined in a separate cell for nine months. The Secretary of State for War seemed to indicate that that was the confinement which these military prisoners received when they were sentenced to solitary confinement. If the right hon. Gentleman meant nothing more than that, then let it be stated in the Bill. The objection of the right hon. Gentleman to any change of the term appeared to be, not that the punishment would be changed, but that the term itself was not known. Then, let it be known, for what objection could there be to the term being known? This Act was administered not only in convict establishments under the immediate supervision of the Home Secretary, but in every part of the world wherever there was an English soldier liable to be sentenced to imprisonment accompanied with solitary confinement; and there, he believed, solitary confinement, as ordinarily understood, would be the punishment inflicted, and not seperate confinement, as explained by the right hon. Gentleman. A concession on this point would more materially facilitate the progress of the Bill than an extra sitting of the Committee.

MR. DILLWYN

said, that the term separate confinement did not appear to be well understood—its former meaning having been altered, and the right hon. Gentleman had explained to the Committee what it meant. Therefore, if it was not a well understood term—and the right hon. Gentleman had explained the meaning of it—the explanation might be accepted and introduced into the Bill.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

thought it would be far better to leave the question until the Committee which was to meet had had an opportunity of considering the whole of these punishments and into the general question of Prison Rules. That Committee was about to sit, and the moment this Bill became an Act, it would have an opportunity of considering all the suggestions which hon. Members had made, and of bringing them before the House in a satisfactory shape. At present, his information was that these punishments were not of that severe character which some hon. Gentlemen seem to suppose them to be. The Director of Convict Prisons did not think they were unnecessarily severe.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, the question was not what was satisfactory to the Director of Convict Prisons, but whether the matter was not one which the Committee ought fully and fairly to consider. The right hon. Gentleman, who had stated his view of the question succinctly to the Committee, had not, he believed, objected to the use of the word "separate;" and he could not understand why the fact of the introduction of the word "separate" into the clause should not meet the wishes of those who were opposed to the present system of solitary confinement, and thus facilitate the passing of the Bill.

MR. H. SAMUELSON

thought it was perfectly clear, from the language of the clause itself, that it was the solitary system to which it was intended recourse should be had under the operation of the clause. It was also of importance that it should be borne in mind that the clause would have to be put in force in prisons which were not arranged on the modern principle, but which were furnished with separate cells, in which sometimes healthy, strong men were confined, only to leave them perfectly broken down. It seemed to him, he might add, that some hon. Members were disposed to take too lenient a view of the offence of insubordination; but, for his own part, he did not think a soldier could be guilty of a much more serious offence.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

had no wish to offer any unnecessary opposition to the Bill. He should like, however, to know whether, if the word "solitary" were allowed to remain in the clause, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would undertake to pre- pare Prison Rules which would define the nature of the punishment which would be inflicted under the name of solitary confinement. If he would do that, the Bill might stand as it was; while there might be such a definition of what was meant by the words "solitary confinement" as would meet the views of his hon. Friend who moved the Amendment.

MR. SULLIVAN

thought it better that the question at issue should be frankly dealt with at once. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had stated that the words "solitary confinement" did not mean that sort of punishment to which he and his hon. Friends near him so strongly objected. That being so, why should not the right hon. Gentleman give effect to the noble and humane view which he entertained by embodying it in the Bill itself?

Mr. O'CONNOR POWER

(amid loud cries of "Divide, divide,"and "Order, order!") said, he was quite willing that those who only contributed to the debate in the manner they had just heard should have an opportunity of gratifying their feeling. He did not object to the contribution the hon. Baronet (Sir James Elphinstone) had given to the debate. He merely rose for the purpose of reminding the Committee that they were constantly hearing from Ministers profusions of sympathy with their views—professions of humanity. Really the Secretary of State for War had been routed from every position which he had taken up in the present discussion. [Sir JAMES ELPHINSTONE: No, he has not.] He left the hon. Baronet to make good his position; and if he could cover the retreat of the right hon. Gentleman in right honourable fashion, he would be- glad for the reputation both of the Army and the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman had given the Committee his definition of solitary confinement, but when asked to embody the definition in the Bill he refused. The Secretary of State for War, he might add, had no authority whatever to frame the Prison Rules. That was a duty which devolved upon the Secretary of State for the Home Department; so that the Committee would really have no security that those rules would give effect to the wishes of those who were opposed to the form of punishment prescribed by the clause. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would agree to the very reasonable Amendment which he proposed.

SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA

said, that if the Secretary of State for War would draw up a minute which would make it perfectly clear to the prison authorities that what was really meant by solitary confinement was that which the right hon. Gentleman himself had stated, he should not like to persevere in opposing the Bill. Otherwise he thought the Committee would be stultifying themselves if they allowed to remain on the Statute Book words conveying a different meaning from-that which the right hon. Gentleman desired to put upon them.

Question put.

The Committee divided: —Ayes 190; Noes 45: Majority 145.—(Div. List, No. 68.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

MR. PARNELL

pointed out that there existed at present no rules by which the proper treatment of prisoners could be secured, and that the whole matter would seem to be left entirely to the discretion of the prison authorities. Prisoners were consequently left very much at the mercy of the warders. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War would lay upon the Table of the House Rules bearing upon the treatment of those prisoners who would come under the operation of the Punishment Clauses of the Bill.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, he considered the statement which had been made to him by the Director of Prisons as to the alleged harsh treatment of prisoners was one upon which he was bound to rely. He had no power, he might add, to frame Rules for the prisons in question. They were not under his jurisdiction. They were the general prisons of the country, and the military prisons were occupied for short periods. The latter, even, were practically speaking, not under his jurisdiction, but under that of the Inspector General of Convict Prisons. He would, however, confer on the subject with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who might, in conjunction with Sir Edmund Du Cane, be able to give effect to the wishes of the hon. Gentle- man and his Friends, so that they might be assured that the punishment of solitary confinement was carried out in the way in which it had been represented to him it was.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, he was perfectly willing to communicate with Sir Edmund Du Cane on the subject. He could assure hon. Members that things not only were as they had been represented to his right hon. Friend, but that they would continue to be so.

MR. PARNELL

said, he was very glad to have the assurances which had just been given to the Committee by the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for the Home Department; for though he might trust them, that was an entirely different thing from trusting Sir Edmund Du Cane, whom he considered entirely unworthy of confidence.

COLONEL MURE

rose to Order. The hon. Member had stated in that House that a man holding the very responsible position which Sir Edmund Du Cane occupied was unworthy of that position, without alleging any reasons to justify such a statement. He should like to know from the Chairman whether the use of such language was not an infringement of the rules of debate?

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the point to which the hon. and gallant Member referred was one which frequently occurred in the course of debate. Hon. Members on their own responsibility—and, it must be presumed, with a full knowledge of the circumstances of the case—made charges against a person who was in the employment of the Government, and who was not present to rebut those charges; but he was bound to add that the House had accepted, on the part of its Members, the belief that they would not make such charges without a full sense of the responsibility which they incurred. He need not point out to the hon. Member for Meath that there were other occasions for making such charges when they could be made the subject of debate, which they could not in the present instance; but if the hon. Member believed the charge was one which he would not wish to withdraw, he could not say that the language which the hon. Member had used was contrary to the Rules of the House.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, he could not allow the statement which the hon. Member for Meath had made with regard to Sir Edmund Du Cane to go forth to the public without giving it a complete contradiction. He had watched Sir Edmund Du Cane ever since he had the honour of holding the office which he now occupied, and he did not believe that a more humane man existed, or a more valuable public servant. But as a Commission was at present sitting to inquire into the conduct of convict prisons, it would, he thought, have been wiser, more charitable, and more in accordance with the feeling of the House, if the hon. Member had waited until the Re-port of that Commission had been presented to the House before making such a charge. He could not, however, permit it to be made without assuring the Committee that he did not believe a better officer than Sir Edmund Du Cane existed.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, that, while he was willing to accept the assurances of the Secretary of State for War and the Home Secretary without the slightest reservation, he was at a loss to understand what the charge was which the Chairman seemed to think his hon. Friend the Member for Meath ought to withdraw.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that the point of Order which had been raised had been decided in this way—that the hon. Member for Meath, acting on his own responsibility, was at liberty to withdraw or adhere to the charge which he had made against Sir Edmund Du Cane. It was not, he might add, for the hon. and learned Member who had just spoken or any other hon. Member to enter, on the present occasion, into a discussion of the motives or the assertions of the hon. Member for Meath.

MR. SULLIVAN

wished to know, for the information of the Committee, what the charge was which the Chairman said it was for his hon. Friend the Member for Meath to withdraw or adhere to? He was not aware that his hon. Friend had made any charge.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that he had already stated twice to the Committee that he did not call upon the hon. Member to withdraw the charge.

MR. PARNELL

thought the hon. and gallant Member who had risen to Order (Colonel Mure) had entirely misunderstood what he really had said. What he had said was, that although he could put confidence in the statement of the Secretary of State for the Home Department or the Secretary of State for War, yet he did not feel himself called upon to extend the same confidence to Sir Edmund Du Cane. He would not go fully into a question of the kind on that occasion. An opportunity would shortly be afforded him of entering into the subject of convict treatment, and of that opportunity he meant to avail himself to the fullest extent, to prove the justice of that which he had stated that evening. The Committee had, he might add, received an undertaking from the Secretary of State for War that he would take care that the treatment of prisoners sentenced to solitary confinement should be such as it had been represented to him by Sir Edmund Du Cane to be. He did not exactly know what representations Sir Edmund Du Cane had made; but he wished to be satisfied that the prisoners received the ordinary prison diet who were placed in separate confinement, and that they were not put on short rations of bread and water.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

said, he knew from experience what solitary confinement meant; and his belief was that no man, however strong, could endure it for a period of seven days without material injury to his constitution. The period of such punishment should, in his opinion, be reduced to two or three days at a time, or the punishment itself should be altogether abolished.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

said, the Secretary of State for War had described, in distinct and positive terms, what was the kind of solitary confinement which he understood was inflicted in the prisons in question, and had stated he would feel bound to see that the description of it which he himself had given to the Committee would be carried into effect. That being the case, any further discussion of the question was, he thought, unnecessary, and he hoped it would not be prosecuted any further, for he had the fullest confidence in the right hon. Gentleman's assurances.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, he could scarcely give his assent to what had been stated by the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. He must inform him that it was not open to Sir Edmund Du Cane to violate the Prison Rules, and that solitary confinement was what it had been described to be by his hon. Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell). There was no use in fencing over the matter. Solitary confinement meant a diet of bread and water. He therefore could not, for one, assent to the clause, and must record his protest against such barbarous legislation. As to the manner in which Sir Edmund Du Cane discharged his duties, perhaps, as the Secretary of State for the Home Department had undertaken to defend that officer, the Committee would allow him to call their attention to the evidence of one of the witnesses mentioned in Sir James Ingham's Report. Corporal Thomas Chambers who, when he first was sent to prison, was a strong, healthy man, stated that his health had become so broken by the treatment to which he was subjected there that he could scarcely, when writing, guide his pen. The witness added that he had several times petitioned the Secretary of State for the Home Department to order an inquiry to be made into the exceptional treatment under which he suffered, but that he had always received "no ground" for an answer. Another man had been done to death by the treatment which he had received. He might be told that the police magistrate's report entirely contradicted that statement; but he would remind the Committee that the report, which stated that it was incorrect to say that O'Donovan Rossa had been handcuffed, was afterwards shown to have been completely unfounded.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that the case of O'Donovan Rossa had nothing to do with the conduct of our military prisons.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, the prisoner from whose evidence he had been quoting had been confined in a military prison, and that he had referred to his case in order to let the Committee see what value was to be set on the reports of police magistrates. Corporal Chambers' evidence went on to show that complaints made to the governor of the prison were entirely useless, and that they only led to the infliction of extra suffering. That was really the state of the matter; and he could assure the Secretary of State for the Home Department that the system of denying every statement of the kind which was brought forward in that House was a fatal system. He, for one, was not prepared to accept such denials, because the facts in opposition to them were overwhelming. Ha hoped, he might add, that with a view of effecting an improvement in a barbarous enactment, the Committee would vote against the clause.

DR. LUSH

said, he trusted no further obstruction would be offered to the passing of the clause. He, for one, was perfectly satisfied with the assurance which had been given by the Secretary of State for War, and should feel it to be his duty not to vote against it.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, he could not possibly record his vote against the clause, inasmuch as he would thereby be doing what in him lay to do away with the power possessed by a commanding officer of commuting the sentence of death.

MR. H. SAMUELSON

said, he thought the Committee ought to be satisfied with the assurance of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that for the future what was known as separate, as opposed to "solitary," punishment should be carried out.

MR. O'CLERY

said, he quite concurred with his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Galway (Major Nolan) in the opinion that in voting against the clause the Committee would be recording its decision against the power of a commanding officer to commute the sentence of death. He must, at the same time, observe, that he did not think any hon. Member by voting against the clause would err very much on the side of cruelty, for a soldier in the French Army would prefer to be shot rather than to be flogged or confined, as soldiers were in England.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he had in the last division voted with the minority; but he should now, after the assurances of the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, vote with the Government. He felt confident that these assurances had not been given without the sincere intention to carry them into effect.

MR. BENETT-STANFORD

said, he merely rose to protest against the language of the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) with respect to the prisoner M'Carthy. If M'Carthy had been murdered at all, it was owing to the over-kindness of his friends in Dublin.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, that so long as the Prison Rules remained as they now were, it was not in the power of the Government to make any such concession as some hon. Members seemed to think had been made. If, he might add, the clause were passed in its present shape, nothing could be done for the next 12 months in the way of altering that odious form of prison discipline against which he and his hon. Friends near him had over and over again protested.

MR. PARNELL

said, it must not go forth to the public that he and those with whom he acted were refusing to accept a reasonable concession. It was, in reality, the Government who were open to that charge. It was for the Secretary of State for the Home Department to give an undertaking that he would lay on the Table of the House Rules regulating the treatment of the prisoners in question while suffering solitary confinement. If the right hon. Gentleman would do that, in conformity with the assurance of the Secretary of State for War on the subject, he, for one, would be satisfied.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, any further opposition to the clause ought, in his opinion, to be waived, for he entertained no doubt that the assurance which had been given by the Government would be faithfully carried into effect. The Secretary of State for War would, perhaps, before the third reading of the Bill, lay on the Table of the House a Minute embodying the view on the subject which he had stated that evening.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, the Committee seemed to him to be placed in a somewhat awkward position. The personal assurances which had been given by Ministers in the course of the discussion, though made no doubt with perfect sincerity, were, he thought, entirely unsatisfactory. The Director of Prisons must obey the Rules laid down for his guidance, so that the emendation suggested by the Secretary of State for War could not be carried out without a change of those Rules. That being so, the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) had suggested that a Minute should, before the third reading of the Bill, be laid on the Table of the House, embodying the proposed emendation; but, notwithstanding all that had been said by him and other hon. Members, the Government sat dumb. When the right hon. Gentleman gave them to understand that he was going to bring some influence to bear upon Sir Edmund Du Cane, they knew right well that the only way in which those suggestions could be acted upon was by embodying them in a binding rule. His words were straightforward enough; but why did he not make his acts to correspond?

MR. O'SULLIVAN

asked his hon. Friend not to press this Amendment to a division, because, if they succeeded in rejecting this clause, they withdrew from the commanding officer the power of remitting the punishment of death.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

said, the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) had made an impracticable suggestion. The Home Secretary had told them that he was obliged to lay the Prison Rules upon the Table of the House 40 days before they became law. Last year they endeavoured to obtain from the right hon. Gentleman a pledge that he would obtain the sanction of the House to these Rules; but he resisted, and said he would leave them on the Table 40 days before they became law, and then any objection could be raised to them; but everybody knew how futile it was to expect that a small minority could alter the Rules, and get the right hon. Gentleman to accept their terms. If they allowed this clause to be passed in its present shape, nothing could be done to improve the punishment of this class of offenders for the next 12 months; and what guarantee had they that anything would be done then? None whatever. The hon. Member for County Limerick (Mr. O'Sullivan) had repeated the expression of the hope entertained by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Major Nolan) that they should not deprive commanding officers of the power of commuting death sentences. It was merely a question of whether a man was to be shot and die in five minutes, or whether he was to be subject to a daily death for 12 or 15 years. It was no mercy at all to commute the death sentence; and, therefore, not one of these appeals should have weight with those who wore anxious to oppose the clause.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

thought this opposition to the clause was rather unfair after the Ministerial assurances which had been given. The Secretary of State for War had told them that "solitary" meant "separate" confinement, and that the only way in which it differed from ordinary imprisonment was that the prisoner took his exercise by himself and not with other persons. Then, the Homo Secretary, who had to make these Rules, had also given his personal assurance to the Committee that this Rule, as stated by the Secretary of State for War, should be carried out. How was the Business of that House to be carried on if they were not to accept the assurance of two of the principal Members of the Ministry, given personally before the Committee on a matter of that kind? For his part, he should, of course, vote with the Government if the question was unwisely pressed to a division. If, when fair concessions were made, they were not to be accepted, he could not see any hope of doing any real good in that House, as they would turn every hon. Member against them.

MR. PARNELL

said, the doctrine of the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) might be suitable for an evening tea-party, but not for obtaining concessions from the Government or the House. The hon. Member was actuated by the best intentions; but they all knew where such intentions generally led to. His hon. Friend had a great belief in the Government; but why did not the Government show some little belief in itself? All that he, and those who acted with him, asked was that the views and intentions of the Government should be put in the form of a Rule and laid on the Table of the House, so that they might know what their views and intentions really were, and not have to wait until another military prisoner died by slow torture in penal servitude. This might be called a course of opposition; but he said it was a reasonable course of opposition, and one in which they would persist, whenever the Mutiny Bill was brought forward in its present fiendish shape.

MR. O'DONNELL

ventured to observe that, so far, the declarations of the Secretary of State for War and the Home Secretary were satisfactory. They were deliberately choosing an unconstitutional method of carry out their reforms. They declined to introduce a necessary Amendment in terms into this Act; but they engaged, without the sanction of the law, so to interfere with the carrying out of the Prison Rules that, in practice, there would be nothing to complain of. To maintain a bad law on the condition that that bad law should not be acted upon in its bad features, was a most unsatisfactory and unconstitutional manner of meeting the requirements of the country. No matter how humane the Secretary of State for War or the Home Secretary might be, they ought to take steps to show their readiness to meet the wishes of hon. Members around him in a legal manner, and not leave them dependent upon mere personal assurances.

Question put.

The Committee divided: —Ayes 214; Noes 5: Majority 209. — (Div. List, No. 69.)

Clause 17 (Embezzlement, &c. of stores punishable by penal servitude, or by fine, imprisonment, &c.)

MR. O'DONNELL

asked what was the necessity for including minor offences in the provisions of military law? He thought that mere petty offences— such as felony or embezzlement—should be dealt with by the civil tribunals, except when in case of war there were no civil tribunals at which the soldier could be tried.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, it must be obvious to everyone that' the discipline of the Army could never be maintained at all unless there was rapid punishment for soldiers guilty of felony and embezzlement.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 18 (As to execution of sentences of penal servitude in the United Kingdom).

MR. O'DONNELL

proposed to add the words— Provided, always, That soldiers convicted for military offences shall not he imprisoned and shall not undergo their term of penal servitude in company with ordinary prisoners. He urged the principle, which was becoming more and more generally recognized amongst all civilized people at the present day, outside the ranks of the Government Party, that there should be as much classification of criminals as possible, so that criminals guilty of very slight offences should not be thrown into the company of hardened convicts—that persons guilty of an offence which, however serious to the State, was not a degrading offence, should not have to work out his punishment under degrading and brutalizing conditions fit only for the ordinary ruffian. He would remind the Committee of the evidence coming before the House in connection with Sergeant M'Carthy, as to how far his death was accelerated by his prison treatment. M'Carthy was almost a perfect type of the brave, loyal, and discipline-abiding Irish, soldier. No one, however opposed to the principles for which M'Carthy sacrificed everything, even his military obligations, could read the simple medical account of his wounds received in defending the British flag, and in the performance of acts of valour, without feeling that such a man deserved personal respect. No doubt, he had laid himself open to punishment. The ordinary military mode of execution—that of having a man shot by a platoon of his comrades?—? was consonant with the military character; but what could be said to making a stainless soldier—a man of brilliant valour like M'Carthy—herd with the lowest and vilest criminals, the scum of civilization? Why, everyone must admit that it was an uncalled-for aggravation of his punishment, which it was neither common justice nor Christian charity to inflict. If hon. Members would consult the report—the very imperfect report —of Sir James Ingham, with reference to the treatment of M'Carthy, they would see that this political soldier had had to perform the basest and most menial offices, in company with burglars, commuted murderers, ravishers — in short, every species of the worst scoundrels. One of his tasks, for instance, was to remove the night slops of the filthiest ruffians. Surely, every honest man must feel that that was not a punishment which really met the objects contemplated by the Legislature, or which ought to be inflicted on a soldier guilty of a purely political offence. So far from acting beneficially, it was calculated to excite sympathy with the offender, and to deepen the popular detestation of a Governmental system of punishment which had to rely upon such abominable methods. What he wanted was a classification of offenders, which should not shock that natural sense of justice which forbade us, no matter at what Governmental dictates, to associate a military offender with an ordinary ruffian. Here he -would give the Government a little historical reminiscence. However dangerous military offences and military treason might be, they had, in their day, done good service to the cause of Constitutional freedom in this country—as, for instance, in the Revolution of 1688. He begged to move a Proviso to the effect that soldiers convicted of purely military offences should not be imprisoned or undergo terms of penal servitude in company with ordinary criminals.

Mr. O'CONNOR POWER,

having already expressed his opinions on the subject of the classification of prisoners, would not weary the Committee by a repetition of them. He would only express a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to take some step in the direction indicated by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell).

MR. PARNELL

also trusted the right hon. Gentleman would give his attention to the subject, which was one of great importance. It was a great anomaly that there should be no attempt in this Bill to distinguish military from civil offenders, or, rather, military from civil offences—for, of course, there was a great difference between the soldier who was guilty of a mere breach of discipline, and one who robbed his officer's quarters. Considering the great variety of offences, some system of classification was clearly required. He did not say that the Amendment proposed was exactly the right one — but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the subject.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, some system of classifying prisoners would, no doubt, be adopted. However, he entirely objected to the Amendment. The hon. Member seemed to consider military offences as quite different from other offences; whereas military offences were sometimes marked by the worst characteristics, and did not entitle their perpetrators to treatment at all different from that of ordinary criminals.

Amendment negatived.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

thereupon moved to report Progress, seeing that they had been discussing the Bill since 6 o'clock. The perception of hon. Members was not improved by these long sittings; and he thought it would be well if they came fresh to the consideration of the remaining clauses of the Bill. No doubt, the necessity for passing these Mutiny Bills was urgent; but he believed he was correct in saying that no harm would be done if they passed any time before the 25th of April. There was no class of Bill which it was more undesirable to press through at a late hour; and, as they had still two weeks before them for discussion, he trusted the Committee would not object to his Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."— (Mr. O'Connor Power.)

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, no one was more conscious than he of the number of hours spent over this Bill. Without imputing motives to anyone as to the reasons he might have had for opposing it, he would undertake to say that on no occasion, or, at all events, very rarely, in the history of Parliament had opposition of such a kind been offered. Certain hon. Members had spoken eight or nine times on the same point, not merely to call attention to it, but in long speeches, embodying arguments that had already been used; and if those hon. Members thought proper to continue to discuss the clauses of the Bill in the same manner, there would hardly be an hour or a minute to spare of the time available for discussion before the date at which the Bill must pass. On Friday night the Committee on it was fixed for Monday evening. Then, as hon. Members knew, it was objected to, because somebody or other was absent. But was the Business of that House to be regulated by two or three people? Was a Committee to be postponed to suit the convenience of some hon. Member who might be in a distant part of the country? It was not his (Mr. Hardy's) business to inquire whether hon. Members were present or not—his business was to put the Notices on the Paper, and to act on them; and he felt bound to say he had been much surprised at some of the language used respecting him, because he had simply followed the ordinary course of proceeding. In consequence of the objections raised by certain hon. Members to this Bill, which had previously been regarded almost in the sense of Supply, he had promised that a Committee should investigate the whole subject of the Law of Mutiny and Discipline in the Army, and that their conclusions should duly come before Parliament in the form of a Bill. Yet he was met by just the same opposition as last year—an opposition which had surprised him even from some of the hon. Members who offered it. Amongst other things, it was proposed—he could hardly mention it without smiling—that the Bill should be applied to the Native Army in India, without any attempt being made to show ground for such a step, or for the extension of a system which one hon. Member had said made it disgraceful to enter the English Army. He was not going to put the Committee to the inconvenience of walking to and fro in the Lobbies as before. A time might come when such a course would be necessary. It might be necessary, indeed, to take further steps. At present, however, he would content himself with proposing to take the present clause, and the succeeding ones, until an Amendment was reached, when Progress would be reported, and a Morning Sitting fixed for that day.

MR. DILLWYN

reminded the right hon. Gentleman who had just brought so serious an indictment against hon. Members, that last week the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised that the Mutiny Bill should not be taken till Monday, whereas it was read a second time on Friday night.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

explained, that what passed was this. On Friday night he was asked what Business would be taken on Monday; and his reply was the Mutiny Bill and Supply. Now, that was exactly what had been put on the Paper. The Mutiny Bill stood for second reading on Friday night; and, assuming that the second reading would be agreed to, he said a discussion upon it would take place on Monday on going into Committee, which was the fact.

MR. DILLWYN

contended that the natural interpretation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on Friday was, that the next stage of the Bill— namely, the second reading—would be taken on Monday. At all events, that was the understanding on his—the Opposition—side of the House, and the consequence was that hon. Members had not been able to put down the Amendments the Committee had been discussing that evening. He did not approve of the conduct of certain hon. Members; but he did not think they were altogether open to the serious imputations made against them by the Secretary of State for War.

MR. MONK

thought it due to the Government to say that he and other Members on that—the Opposition—side of the House had fully understood that it was the next stage of the Mutiny Bill after the second reading which was to be taken on Monday. The second reading on Friday night was moved at a reasonable hour; and hon. Members, in his opinion, had had ample time to put down Amendments.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

did not understand what motive the Secretary of State for War had in giving them such an extraordinary summary of the Business as he had done. It had been stated that hon. Members on that side of the House had misunderstood the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday evening; but the Secretary of State for War entirely ignored that fact for the purpose of creating a prejudice against certain hon. Members. Now, he (Mr. O'Connor Power) protested against such conduct. The right hon. Gentleman, furthermore, said that no reasons had been given in support of the proposal to extend the Bill to India. Now, the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) proved in his speech that he knew more of the subject than the Secretary of State for War, and all the hon. and gallant Gentlemen present. During his speech, the hon. Member for Dungarvan was improperly called to Order by two hon. and gallant Gentlemen, whose notions on the subject were evidently very confused.

THE CHAIRMAN

pointed out that the hon. Member was travelling away from the question before the Committee.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

then expressed his concurrence in the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman that the Committee should stop at the first Amendment, and consented to withdraw his Motion.

MR. PARNELL

remarked, that the Secretary of State for War had used something like a threat, as he had also done in a speech he made during the Recess, when he said that certain hon. Members, if they persisted in their course of conduct, would be crushed. Now, he was well aware that unless the Irish Members agreed to model their ideas on those of hon. Members opposite, the power of the House would be set in motion against them. But it was they who had induced the right hon. Gentleman to agree to the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman took credit to himself for the good the Irish Members had done, while, at the same time, he denounced their conduct as unheard of. If the Irish Members were not to have the rights and privileges of other Members, the fact should be plainly stated, and they would know what they had to deal with.

MR. O'DONNELL

complained that the Secretary of State for War had misrepresented his (Mr. O'Donnell's) statements with regard to India. He (Mr. O'Donnell) distinctly admitted that there were many clauses in the Bill which could apply only to white regiments; but he stated that he had reason to believe—and he adduced some reasons for believing—that the adoption of the Bill would effect a great improvement in the state of affairs in India. He protested, not against the right hon. Gentleman's infirmity of temper, but against what he considered the very remarkable inaccuracy of his statement.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 19 (As to execution of sentences of penal servitude in the colonies, India, or elsewhere out of Her Majesty's dominions.)

MR. O'DONNELL

inquired of the Secretary of State for War, whether notice had been taken of complaints which had appeared in Indian papers as to undue severity being shown to white soldiers in their removal from one prison to another? They were said to be marched in a public manner, manacled; and it was alleged that there was no necessity for manacling them in the great majority of cases. Attention had also been called to the matter in some of the English papers.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, no complaints of the kind had reached him.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

moved that the House meet To-morrow, at 2 o'clock.

MR. RYLANDS

protested against such a Motion being made without due Notice—a course which he characterized as most unusual and most inconvenient. If a Morning Sitting were absolutely necessary, the House would not refuse it; but the Government had another day at their disposal this week—namely, Thursday—which they had assigned to the County Government Bill, for which there was no urgent necessity at all, and which might just as well be taken after, as before, Easter. He suggested that the Mutiny Bill should be taken on Thursday, and that the County Government Bill should stand over.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

assured hon. Members that a Morning Sitting was quite as inconvenient to the Government as to them; but it was absolutely necessary to resort to it on this occasion, inasmuch as they had no choice but to pass the present Bill and the Marine Mutiny Bill before the Easter Recess. After a whole night's discussion, they had not got through one-fifth of this Bill, and the Marine Mutiny Bill was still to come. In addition, they had a certain amount of Supply to get through, and Monday next was already promised for a Bill in which great interest was taken. The time at the disposal of the Government for the passing of these Mutiny Bills was, therefore, extremely limited. The hon. Member spoke about Thursday; but it might be necessary to have Thursday as well as the Morning Sitting now asked for, and, possibly, Friday morning as well. If the ordinary Business of the House was to be proceeded with at unusual length, it was necessary that the House should sit at unusual hours.

MR. PARNELL

hoped, that whatever was done, a fair opportunity would be afforded him of stating his views. He wished his constituents and the public to know what he had to say on these matters. A month ago he gave Notice of his intention to discuss the details of the Mutiny Bill, so that the Government ought to have been prepared for the discussion which had taken place, and ought to have made their arrangements accordingly.

MR. WHITWELL

remarked, that this was a most unusual period of the Session at which to take Morning Sittings, and that the inconvenience of this course was all the greater from its being taken without Notice. He trusted that if the Government took the Morning Sitting they would not devote Thursday to the County Government Bill.

MR. DILLWYN

also complained of the Motion being made without Notice, remarking that this was an unusual course to take at any period of the Session.

Motion agreed to.