HC Deb 19 March 1878 vol 238 cc1657-72

in rising to move— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse Her assent to the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Poors Estate, in the parish of Leeds, in the county of York, said, the estate in question was one of three ancient charities managed by the same body, the two others being the Highway Estate and the Free Grammar School Estate. In 1825 their several incomes were found by a Commission of Inquiry to be, Highway Estate, £818; Poors Estate, £153; and Free Grammar School Estate, £1,595; but, owing to the increase in the value of property, the income of the Poors Estate was now six times greater than it was at that time. For many generations the money of this Estate had been distributed in overcoats and petticoats to the poor; but the Endowed Schools Commissioners, in the scheme they had sanctioned for dealing with it, proposed that £700 should be applied to the maintenance of scholarships in the Leeds Grammar School, and an exhibition at one of the Universities, and that the remaining £270 should be given in doles as heretofore. Now, the Poors Estate was what its name implied, a charity for the benefit of the poor; but one-half of the £700, which it was proposed to devote to educational purposes, would be for the benefit of the well-to-do. During the past year, although the scheme had not yet passed the House of Commons, no fewer than 24 of the new scholarships had been awarded, some of them to scholars in the Leeds Grammar School, amongst whom was the son of the head master—a gentleman receiving £1,300 a-year—a clergyman's son, and also the son of a surgeon in large practice. Now this, to his mind, was unbecoming, if not illegal; and if such things were done in the green tree, what would be done in the dry when, the House having sanctioned the present scheme, the Trustees would have full power in their own hands? Surely, it was rather a risky thing, to say the least of it, to entrust them with the power which it was now proposed they should have. He objected to the scheme, also, on the ground that the Grammar School was enjoying advantages beyond the average of such institutions. The interest derived by the school from its investments was about £3,400, and the fees paid by the scholars yielded £2,400 a-year more. Although it was called a free grammar school, it charged pretty highly for the education it gave. The minimum fee was 10 guineas, which, in round numbers, would represent a total number of 240 scholars, and these 240 scholars cost £24 17s. 6d. per head. Now, he put it to the House whether they would like to entrust this scheme to men who sanctioned such an expenditure as that? He entreated the noble Lord (Viscount Sandon) to consider whether, before this scheme was carried out, the Leeds Grammar School, the Leeds Poors Estate, and the Highway Estate trusts should not be inquired into with a view to the framing of a more comprehensive and more beneficial scheme. Meanwhile, he begged to move that an Address be presented to Her Majesty in the terms of his Notice.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse Her assent to the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Poors Estate, in the parish of Leeds, in the county of York."—{Mr. Burran.)


in opposing the Motion, begged the House to remember that the question before them was simply the administration of the Leeds Poors Estate. The funds of this estate were about £1,000 a-year, but up till a few years ago they only amounted to £270. No records existed as to the trust under which these funds were originally left by the pious founder; but for the last 200 years or so, the money had been applied to the distribution of clothing to the poor of Leeds at Christmas. A few years ago it was suggested that it should be devoted rather to improving the education of the poorer classes, and the matter was brought before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster), then at the head of the Education Department. The new scheme received great consideration from the Trustees, and the main features of it obtained the approval of the Commissioners, and also, he believed, of the right hon. Gentleman himself. However, it was dropped, and was not re- vived till about a year and a-half ago, when the funds of the Poor's Estate had increased to the extent named. The Trustees decided that they should continue to apply the original £270 to the distribution of clothing to the poor at Christmas, and that the remaining £700 should be devoted to educational purposes. Sixteen senior scholarships were accordingly founded. One-half were applicable to boys educated, in the first instance, in the elementary schools of Leeds; but there was no indication as to how the remainder, representing a sum of £320, were to be applied. They were, accordingly, open to all boys who might choose to compete for them. In addition, there were 16 junior scholarships, open partly to boys educated at the elementary schools of Leeds, partly to all other natives of Leeds; and a University exhibition, also confined, in the first instance, to boys educated for a certain number of years in the elementary schools of Leeds. The 30th section of the Endowed Schools Act of 1869 provided that where doles had been applied to educational purposes regard should be had, in the first instance, to the class of life of those who had been accustomed to receive the doles or—and the "or" here was of importance—to the area from which they came. Now, the Trustees thought that in laying down this scheme they were acting with considerable liberality and with full regard to the class of life of those who had been accustomed to receive the doles. It was rather insinuated in some quarters that the Governors of the school—who, he might say, were no less anxious to promote the cause of education than his hon. Friend—had laid down a standard of examination so high as to prevent children educated in the elementary schools from obtaining the scholarships. Well, the scheme had been in operation about a year and a-half; and the House would probably be interested to know that, according to the head master's report, 14 of the boys from the elementary schools had sent up the best Latin. That, surely, showed that the boys of the elementary schools were perfectly able to take care of themselves, and that the standard of examination was not so high as to debar them from the scholarships. The hon. Member objected to £320 of the £700 being applicable to others than the particular class receiving the doles. But everyone connected with large towns knew that there was a section of the middle class who were in quite as much need of assistance in the matter of education as the lower classes—poor clergymen, for instance, and poor shopkeepers—who had a great struggle for existence. These were not the people who received or accepted doles; but no one could deny that their children had as much claim to assistance as the children of artizans themselves. He had lived in Leeds for many years, and he could certainly say that no class more needed help than the lower middle class there. The hon. Member objected to the Grammar School because of its fees; but those fees were in consideration of education given in addition to the education of the foundation. With regard to the 16 senior fellowships, he rather agreed with the hon. Member in thinking that they should all be limited to natives of Leeds, seeing that the fund was originally intended for the poor of Leeds. He believed the Trustees would agree to make that alteration in the scheme, so as to bring it into harmony with the section. They were all gentlemen connected with Leeds, and who had long lived there; and he could say for them, as he could for himself, that there were none more anxious to promote education in the town. As soon as the state of the funds would allow them, they would willingly take into consideration the case of girls also; but at present there was no girls' school at Leeds to which scholarships could be granted. There was a body called the Leeds Educational Council which, in the course of last year, did offer four or five scholarships for girls, and a certain number of girls came up for examination; but he was sorry to say not one of them reached the required standard. That was a misfortune, however, which he hoped the girls by-and-bye would remedy; and he was quite sure there was no body more anxious for their improvement than the Trustees.


fully acknowledged that the Trustees had throughout been actuated by the best motives; but, at the same time, he thought the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. Barran) had made out a case to which there was no reply. As to the funds of the old trust, although there were no records as to the purposes for which they were originally intended, they might be regarded from usage as being applicable to the poor of Leeds, without distinction of sex. The Trustees had prepared a scheme, by which they declared it, in their opinion, to be advisable that the system of doles should in part cease; and by which they proposed to apply some £700—by far the larger portion of the trust—to the advancement of education. Now, it seemed to him the money expended for education ought to be expended for the use and enjoyment of the class of persons who had from time immemorial been receiving the benefit of the doles. A system of educational endowment was unquestionably superior to a system of doles, and to that extent the scheme of the Trustees was commendable; but the question was, whether the fund might not be still better and more equitably administered in view of its original objects? His own opinion was that it ought to be devoted to the poor, regardless of sex. Now, the last speaker had not attempted to deny that about one-half of the £700 was to be applied to scholarships for which children of all classes, but only of one sex, were allowed to compete; so that the fund was not applied to educational purposes for the benefit of the class for which it was originally intended. The question was not merely one of justice but one of law. He entirely dissented from the hon. Member's reading of the 30th section, that the Trustees might apply the whole or larger part of the fund for the educational benefit of persons within the locality of Leeds, and that they might entirely ignore the educational interests of persons of the class which had been benefited by the immemorial distribution of that fund. The hon. Member had held out two promises. In the first place, he proposed to confine the scholarships to residents in Leeds. Well, that was not a promise of any value. What he (Mr. Stansfeld) and his hon. Friend (Mr. Barran) cared for was that they should be confined and appropriated to the class for which they were originally intended—namely, to the poor of Leeds, regardless of sex. The hon. Member had promised, in the second place, that as soon as the state of their funds permitted it, the Trustees would do something for girls. He (Mr. Stansfeld) did not know what value could be attached to that promise; but he had been given to understand that the estate had arrived at its maximum value, and that there was no probability of any considerable increase to come. In that case, the promise could not be of much value. He could not admit, under these circumstances, that the Trustees, whatever their motives or intentions might have been, had, in the words of the 30th section, paid "due regard"—which ought to be interpreted as "full regard"—to the interests of those for whoso benefit the trust was intended; and he, for one, would support the Motion.


pointed out that what had been done in this matter was a voluntary effort on the part of the Trustees of the Leeds Poors Estate, which was the only estate that the House was dealing with at this moment. There had been a voluntary effort on the part of the Trustees to lay before Parliament a scheme which should have the advantage of being of some use, especially to the classes for whom the charity was originally intended. Supposing the plan were rejected to-night, it would simply have to go back to the Trustees; and the House did not know whether they would present any other scheme for the acceptance of Parliament. That was the position in which the matter now stood. He differed from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) about the mischievous effect of these doles. They were told that the poorer classes were not sufficiently looked after in this particular scheme; but he thought the hon. Gentleman who said that entertained something like a desire to ignore the old-fashioned element of doles, and the advantages they conferred on the poor. He (Mr. Wheelhouse) confessed he was not one of those who considered doles to be mischievous. On the contrary, he thought they had been of great use in times past, and he trusted that no proceeding on the part of the House would ever be supposed to shut the door against the granting or bequest of doles if the donor thought fit to give them. There ought to be no mistake between the two sides of the House as to the issue now raised. This opposition came from the Dissenting element of Leeds. ["No!"] He knew that that was the truth, and he was anxious that the House should know it. The Grammar School and the Leeds Trust, which had to apply this particular dole, had hitherto been—as he trusted it would be for years to come—in the hands of persons who were attached to the Established Church. He was as anxious as anyone could be for the education of the girls; but as far as this plan was concerned, there was no recognized educational institution which would be sufficient for the education of girls in the circumstances in which girls were now placed in Leeds. He was rather surprised to hear the right hon. Member for Halifax assert that the Trust Estate might have already reached its maximum value. Why, the estate had been increasing in value for many years; and to suppose that it would stop at its present value was the idlest idea in the world. Possibly there might be a chance hereafter of the girls of Leeds having an incorporated school of some kind or other; and when the estate had still further increased in value a new scheme might be formed in case such a course were deemed necessary. An attempt had been made to throw discredit on the scheme because it was supposed not to be in favour of the poor. He asserted, however, that from beginning to end it was, practically, a "poor" scheme. It was, of course, an educational scheme as distinguished from a dole scheme; but that it was a poor scheme, no one who took the trouble to read it through could deny for a moment. The House had been told, somewhat artistically, in the first instance, that the main object of the scheme was to provide something for the upper classes. In point of fact, the scheme proposed that 16 senior scholarships should be awarded, four in each year, and each of the yearly value of £20, and tenable for four years. These scholarships were to be competed for, in the first instance, by boys who had for not less than three consecutive years attended some public elementary school in the town of Leeds. Did this mean that the scholarships were intended for boys of the higher class? He apprehended that it did not. If we took the term applicable some time ago to the Education Act, passed under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster), public elementary schools meant schools for children who were supposed to be collected in some measure from the streets and brought in for education. Therefore, it was obvious that the scheme was not intended for the higher class of boys. The next part of the scheme provided that 16 junior open scholarships should be awarded, four in each year, and each of the yearly value of £10 10s., tenable for four years. These scholarships were to be competed for, in the first instance, by boys who were natives of Leeds, or of persons residing there, or by boys residing in Leeds with persons who stood towards them in loco parentium. Surely there could be but one opinion that every boy in Leeds under 16 years of age, whatever might be his status, could come in and compete for these scholarships. It was possible that a boy belonging to a higher class in life might have had a better preliminary education than a boy who came in from a board school; but he maintained that the language of the scheme implied that all the boys in Leeds were placed, so far as they could be placed, in exactly the same position, whatever their previous rank might have been. The scheme could not convert a peasant boy into the son of a Peer. That was, of course, impossible, and they must take the impossibilities of this world with the possibilities, instead of talking nonsense about them.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,


observed that under the scheme eight junior scholarships were to be awarded, four in each year, and each of the annual value of £20, tenable for two years. Those scholarships were to be competed for, in the first instance, by boys who had for not less than three consecutive years attended some public elementary school, or schools in the borough of Leeds, and who had passed the examination of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools in the highest standard for the time being recognized by the regulations of the Education Department for the examination of pupil teachers. Was there anything that could be more fairly laid down for the poor of the borough of Leeds? Those scholarships were to be, in the first instance, for the benefit of those natives of Leeds who from their antecedent education might be assumed to belong to the very poorest class in the borough. Another proposition in the scheme laid down was that no boy should hold more than one of the said scholarships at the same time, and that provision, he thought, would be deemed equitable and reasonable by hon. Members on both sides of the House. In order to complete the scheme, there was a provision for an exhibition of the annual value of £50, tenable for four years, at some University in the United Kingdom. That provision, it should be observed, was not confined to Oxford, Cam-bridge,[and Durham; but left the choice open to the London University and to Dissenting Colleges, as well as to Universities which were attached, more or less, to the Church of England. In that case, likewise, a preference was actually given to the children of the poor. He did not know what the Public Elementary Education Act was intended to do, unless it was to provide for the education of the very class of children who would be primarily benefited by that provision. Such were the propositions which the Governors laid down, and again he must call the attention of the House to the fact that this scheme was voluntarily propounded by the Trustees. They had laid it on the Table to be accepted or rejected, as the House might think fit. If the House chose that night to reject it, the chances were that no such scheme would be proposed for many a long year to come. For his own part, he was not anxious that anything should interfere with the present system of doles to any unnecessary extent. He did not entertain the now utilitarian notions which some persons held with regard to them. His idea was that the wishes of the "pious founder" ought, under all circumstances, to be complied with, as far as was practicable; and he considered that there had frequently been, both in the House of Commons and elsewhere, an ignoring of the intentions of the "pious founder" in favour of some new-fangled ideas, which he would have been the first to repudiate. He hoped that in the future they would have less of this kind of legislation. For these reasons, he supported the present scheme most cordially, leaving to future times, when the fund should have increased, the task of providing for the education of the girls of Leeds.


said, he did not remember either this scheme or any other scheme from Leeds coming before him when he was connected with the Education Department. Most certainly this scheme could not have come officially under his notice; and, indeed, he had no recollection of seeing anything in regard to the scheme until it was brought before him within the last few weeks. It was quite true that the House was not in the same position with respect to this scheme as it would be in the case of a scheme for an endowed school. As regarded the latter, legislation was compulsory; whereas, in regard to this scheme, legislation was, to some extent, voluntary. His hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. Wheel-house) ought not, however, to dwell too strongly on this circumstance; because, if he did so, he would not be supported by his own constituents. He regretted to hear his hon. and learned Friend threaten the House—for it really amounted to a threat—that if they did not accept the scheme as it was brought forward, the funds should still be devoted to the old system of doles, whether that system were good or bad. He knew something about Leeds, and he knew that the educational feeling there was very strong. That feeling was not confined to one class or party; and he was quite sure that if the House wore to come to the conclusion that this was not the best scheme which could be produced, the Trustees of the Grammar School, who were also the Trustees of the Poors Estate, would not think of acting like the dog in the manger, and saying that nothing could be done. They could not follow the advice of his hon. and learned Friend who had just spoken; and if they did so, they would have the public opinion of Leeds against them, and they would greatly injure the successful Grammar School of which they were the Trustees. He was sorry that the House should have to debate the scheme, and for this reason—Leeds stood very high for its educational activity, and he regretted that there should be a dispute in that House in regard to any educational proposal emanating from Leeds. The House was placed in this position without blame being attributable to the Trustees or to anybody else. If the Trustees had to frame a scheme for Leeds with the full knowledge that there existed the greatest earnestness and desire on the part of the working classes to gain the advantages of education, he thought a better scheme would be presented; and he confessed that, in his belief, it would conduce greatly to the interests of Leeds education and of the Grammar School if the present scheme were sent back for re-consideration with a view to another scheme being presented to the House next year. There were two or three points to which, he thought, the Trustees would agree. In the first place, he believed they would feel that it was undesirable to pledge the scheme to £270 a-year for loans. Again, if they were not prepared to do something for the education of girls at the present moment, he thought they would leave in the scheme a power of dealing with this subject at some future time. In his opinion, the scheme, though, no doubt, quite unintentionally, infringed the provisions of the Act of Parliament. The 30th section of the Endowed Schools Act said that certain endowments might be applied to educational purposes. There was a Proviso that in any scheme relating to such endowment due regard should be had to the educational requirements of the same class of persons who enjoyed the benefits of the original charity, or of persons residing in the same locality. His contention was that the word "or" was never intended to apply to such a case as was now under the consideration of the House. This scheme, however, did neither one thing nor the other. Of the 16 senior scholarships, one-half were to be given to boys who had attended public elementary schools in Leeds; but the other half might be given to boys outside, not only of those schools, but of the borough of Leeds. He was surprised at what had fallen from his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Wheelhouse) concerning the 16 junior open scholarships. His hon. and learned Friend spoke in favour of giving to the poor gratuitous education. Well, here was an endowment which, for 200 years, had been devoted to the benefit of the poor, and yet his hon. Friend said one great recommendation of the scheme was, that certain scholarships were to be given to persons in any rank of life. That really was not the object of the charity, and he did not think it ought to be the result of the scheme. He would appeal to the gentlemen who were connected with the Grammar School. It had been a very successful school, but it ranked as a higher-grade school, and it was managed rather exclusively. In fact, the school was upon what might be called its good behaviour, and it would be a most graceful act if the Trustees made use of the whole of this fund to meet a great educational want at Leeds. He had been alluded to as having been Chairman of the Educational Council at Leeds. That he felt to be a high honour, and it had brought him into personal contact with the educational activity of the borough. One very great want was a ladder from the public elementary schools to the Universities. There were not very many boys, in proportion to the whole population, to whom it was desirable to give a high-class education; but, still, there were some, and in a population of 300,000 there would be a good many; and he believed that Leeds, though before other towns in educational matters, did not possess as many academical exhibitions as other towns. The Trustees might have provided almost a sufficient number of exhibitions to meet the whole wants of the borough. He thought the House would confer a great benefit on the Grammar School by sending the scheme back for consideration; and he believed that in future years the Trustees would be glad to have been able to earn that estimation among their fellow-townsmen which it was desirable they should possess.


I desire, in the first place, to express my regret to the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. Barran) if he has been subjected to any inconvenience in moving in this matter by reason of my unavoidable absence from the House. I am glad, however, that he has to-night had an opportunity for a full discussion. In the observations which the hon. Member addressed to the House, he did not make any attack on the action of the Government in this matter. I noticed that circumstance with great satisfaction, because it relieves me from a considerable part of my task in answering him. This is one of a class of subjects—such as doles, apprenticeship fees, the relief of poor persons by means of loans, and so forth—which cannot be compulsorily dealt with by any Government Department, whether it be the Charity Commissioners or the Education Department. The power of dealing with these matters has been left absolutely in the hands of the Trustees of the endowments. Therefore, the Government has no option in the matter, and we have to accept, with gratitude, any scheme, if we really think it is a good one, which the Trustees bring before us. I will just state how this scheme came before the Government; and, first, I may remark that it is not for the Government to consider whether schemes of this kind are abstractedly the very best that could be presented, although, of course, we should be perfectly wrong in passing any scheme which we did not regard as a good and a sound one. When this scheme was brought before us it came from the Charity Commissioners, with a note saying that no opposition had been started to the scheme from the locality—a fact, in itself, of considerable importance. After a while memorials were presented to us on the subject. And here I beg to assure the hon. Member for Leeds that these memorials were not treated by us with the least disrespect. The usual acknowledgment of their receipt was sent; but I will tell the hon. Member how it was that we did not think it worth while to enter into an argument with the gentlemen who forwarded the memorials. We considered whether or not we ought to regard the scheme as being, in general terms, a good scheme, and we found that, when carefully examined, it assumed very noble proportions. There were funds in Leeds which had only of late been developed, and which, it was stated, could be applied to the dole purposes. We found that out of these funds it was proposed to make provision for 40 scholarships of different kinds for Leeds. Well, that, I venture to say, is a very noble scheme in itself. In addition to this, there was to be an exhibition to a University of £ 50 per annum. Seventeen of these endowments, which were of a considerable nature, were divided into different classes, but they were all open to the whole of Leeds. But 17 were tied up to the public elementary schools, with which we are principally connected in the Education Department, the others being open to the whole town of Leeds, and eight of them to outsiders. Therefore, we thought that we had before us a very noble plan for the advancement of the education of Leeds. We looked into the different provisions, and scanned the words with regard to the exhibitions and the public elementary scholars; and we were assured by the Endowed Schools Commissioners that the scheme, in the first instance, tied the exhibitions, as far as they could be tied, to that particular class. If, as the hon. Member supposes might be the case, the Trustees were to endeavour to establish a preliminary prohibitive examination, the Commissioners would at once interfere and put a stop to any such unjustifiable prohibition. As I say, we considered the scheme to be generally a good one. We saw that it would be open to all the boys of Leeds, without question of religious denomination, an opportunity of deriving educational advantage from these noble endowments. We also thought it wise to look as to the precedents relating to the action of former Governments in matters of this kind. We found that during the time when my two right hon. Friends were responsible for the conduct of this Department of the Government, it had been the habit of the Education Department to allot this sort of dole endowments not entirely to the class of people who had been accustomed to receive the doles. It was the custom to divide the endowments between the middle classes and the poorer classes who used to receive the doles. For example, there was the case of Chesterfield. At Hkley, again, the charity consisted of doles, but the money was applied to the Grammar School, pure and simple. Then we found the famous case of Wigan, where £6,000 odd were applied to the Grammar School, and about two-thirds were given to boys in elementary schools. Again, at Stamford, large sums were taken away from the poor to whom they formerly belonged. In fact, we found that in the present instance the Commissioners had been following exactly the precedent which had been established for a very long time previously. We felt satisfied that the scheme itself was a very useful and a very noble one; and one, moreover, which followed on the lines sanctioned by our Predecessors. After receiving the memorials against the scheme, a letter was sent to us by the Chairman of the Board of Trustees. It stated that it was the deliberate and unanimous determination of the Trustees to refuse their assent to any radical change or modification in the scheme, which had been the result of many years' consideration. The subject, it was said, had been fully discussed in the town during the last few years, and yet no disapproval of the scheme had been expressed until within the last few weeks. At the same time, the Chairman added that the Board would be willing to consider the question of the educational interests of the girls when the income of the estate should have increased. With regard to the girls, I may mention that the inhabitants of Leeds, who memorialized us on the subject, withdrew their memorial because they were afraid of imperilling the scheme. The Lord President of the Council and myself had to consider whether or not, by stopping the scheme, we should be justified in imperilling so great a gain to the town. We were told categorically by the Trustees that they would not change the scheme at all, and we thought we were not justified in preventing so great a change. I think the House will agree that the position we took up was a proper one. Whether the scheme was the very best that could be devised I do not say; but considering the danger there was of losing this noble scheme, I think the House will be of opinion that we did right in passing it. There is a special clause at the end of the scheme, making provision for any alterations which may be hereafter thought necessary. The Charity Commissioners may, in their ordinary jurisdiction, provide such alterations as are not inconsistent with the Endowed Schools Act. This will not require the action of the Education Department; and I hope that if, after mature consideration, the Trustees think it desirable to make a change, they will not hesitate to approach the Commissioners for the purpose.


said, the speech of the noble Viscount conveyed to his mind the idea that the Government were not very fond of this scheme. Any scheme in reference to this subject must be originated by the Trustees. Now, it was quite true that the noble Viscount characterized this as a noble scheme; but that admission must be taken in connection with the letter from the Trustees, saying that they had made up their minds not to alter it. This must suggest that the Government had sent a communication to the Trustees expressing some dissatisfaction with the scheme. Surely in a scheme of this kind, some attention ought to be paid to the case of the girls. The original charity was devoted to both sexes; whereas, in this scheme, no pro- vision whatever was made for the education of girls. The University examinations were held at Leeds, and exhibitions might have been given to girls educated there. He trusted the House would pay no attention to the threat of the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. Wheelhouse). If the House were dissatisfied with the scheme, he believed the Trustees would try to make it more in accordance with the views which had been expressed that night.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 55; Noes 101: Majority 46.—(Div. List, No. 60.)