HC Deb 15 July 1878 vol 241 cc1545-64

(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £5,350, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and other Expenses.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

drew attention to what he considered the injustice to which certain classes of Staff officers were now subjected. There were some Staff officers, such as deputy quartermaster generals and deputy adjutant generals who were occupied from six to eight hours a-day working in an office. Their duties involved a great deal of correspondence and labour, and were of a very responsible character. The deputy quartermaster general had the superintendence of the removal of all the troops in his district, and was continually in correspondence with the War Office concerning trifles. Yet these hard-worked Staff officers only got the same pay as aides-de-camp, whose duties were of the lightest character. Four aides-de-camp were kept at Dublin Castle, and their only duties were at the Official Reception, which lasted but for a few hours at a time. To mark his sense of the inequality he had mentioned, he should move to reduce the Vote by the sum of £324, the salaries of those gentlemen.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £5,026, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and other Expenses."—(Major O'Beirne.)

MR. J. LOWTHER

did not think that the hon. and gallant Member had made out any case for the reduction which he sought. So long as the position of the Viceroy of Ireland was sanctioned by Parliament, he thought it could not be denied that the dignity of the position required the presence of those officers.

MAJOR O' BEIRNE

observed, that he wished particularly to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the gross injustice of giving those officers, who did nothing but amuse themselves, the same Staff pay—namely, 9s. 6d. per day—as a class of officers who were worked very hard. He should not take a division upon the matter; but hoped the grievance would be remedied.

MR. PARNELL

was surprised at the hon. and gallant Member making the suggestion he had, as he would never be forgiven by the ladies of Dublin.

MAJOR O'BEIRNE

begged to withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(8.) £20,178, to complete the sum for the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Offices.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

said, that he did not intend to propose the Motion to strike out the salary of the Chief Secretary, of which he had given Notice. The reason he had had for wishing to raise the question was, that the duties of the Chief Secretary were too multifarious for them all to be well done, even if the Office were held by a Gentleman so well qualified as the present Chief Secretary. But as this question must come before the House in its entirety before a very distant period, he should not now make the Motion of which he had given Notice.

MR. BUTT

said, that the Board of Works in Ireland and the Local Government Board ought to be presided over by Parliamentary Leaders, as they were in England. It was utterly impossible for any Chief Secretary—however good—to give his attention to all the offices of which he had charge, and the result was that the Departments were virtually irresponsible. He had already brought forward a Motion on the subject, and he could assure the Government that it would be pressed again and again until the system, by which the Chief Secretary was the nominal head of those Departments—which were thus made virtually irresponsible—was abolished. If any hon. Member would take the trouble to read the Reports relating to the management of the Board of Works in Ireland, he was sure he would agree with him. The Board of Works had not kept a proper minute-book for the last five years. When cross-examining the Clerk of the Board on a Committee, he said he held a minute-book, and produced it. But the first thing he (Mr. Butt) saw in it was a report of a speech of his own in Parliament attacking the Board. In his opinion, the details of Irish Government would be much better brought before the House, if the two Boards he had mentioned were presided over by responsible Ministers with seats in Parliament.

MAJOR NOLAN

remarked, that the Veterinary Department was included in the Vote for the Chief Secretary's Office, and for that reason he wished then to make a few observations with regard to its management. The Irish Veterinary Department was less expensive than the English, but it had not so good a reputation. The total cost of the Irish Veterinary Department was £1,954; on reference to page 90 of the Estimate, it would be seen that the expenses of the Veterinary Department in England amounted to £15,000. Last year there was also a Supplementary Estimate for the English Veterinary Department, making the cost of it altogether £29,000. Yet, although there was this contrast between the cost of the English and the Irish Veterinary Departments, there were more cattle in Ireland than in England and Wales together. In England £2,270 was voted for Inspectors, their salaries ranging from £100 to £460 a-year, and their number might be roughly put down at 20. In Ireland, on the other hand, there was only one Inspector. If there were much cattle disease in Ireland, it should be borne in mind that it was not because the cattle in Ireland were less unhealthy than in England, but because they were in greater numbers. In his opinion, the cattle disease would be much better dealt with by a central authority than a local one. Why should they not have 8, or 10, or 14 Inspectors in Ireland? They had half as large an area as England, and fully the same amount of cattle. It seemed to him that this was a matter of great practical importance. The Veterinary Department in Ireland was stinted, and at the same time the double inspection of cattle from Ireland was commented upon. He thought the Government ought to look into this matter, with a view to provide some mode of inspection in connection with the Central Department as in England, and that the Estimate for the Irish Veterinary Department ought to bear a more equal proportion than they now did to those of England.

MR. WHITWELL

wished to allude to the imperfect inspection of cattle coming from Ireland to England. Anyone acquainted with the circumstances of the case knew that from time to time in the county of Cumberland most grave results had followed from the improper inspection of cattle at Belfast. No doubt, foot-and-mouth disease would exist in Ireland as well as in England. But those who had paid attention to the subject might have read a valuable Paper of the Chief Constable of Cumberland, in which instances were given by him of cattle landed at Whitehaven and other places in Cumberland from Ireland, having brought disease into the county. What was required was a better inspection of cattle on the other side of the Channel. It was a great fault on the part of the Government of Ireland that they did not see the inspection of cattle better carried out. Only nine persons were employed by the Veterinary Department in Ireland; one of these was employed in cleaning an office, another was a messenger, and three were persons employed in the police. There was, practically, only one Inspector, at 8s. 6d. per day; and a Director, who could not be expected to be in more than one place at the same time. They wished to continue the importation of cattle from Ireland as freely as possible, but it was absolutely necessary that cattle should be properly inspected before they left Ireland. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman—now he had had his attention drawn to this subject—would see that the matter complained of was remedied.

MR. BUTT

agreed that there ought to be a more stringent inspection in Ireland. If there were, the dual inspection, which was so much objected to, would be avoided. He would have no objection to a rigid inspection at Irish ports. Then, unless disease were discovered, animals could be landed with- out examination in England, and trade would be facilitated between the two countries without creating danger or difficulty.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, the hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. Whitwell) was not correct in his supposition that his attention had not been called to the subject; because, during the last few days, he had been in communication with gentlemen on it, and it was likely to occupy the attention of Parliament at no very distant period. Several days in the week were set apart for the consideration of the Cattle Bill; and he, therefore, hoped that they would not be prematurely drawn into a cattle debate. The question raised had already been under the consideration of the Government, and their intentions would in due course be communicated.

MR. BIGGAR

said, before the Vote passed, he wished to point out to the right hon. Gentleman what he did not seem to be aware of—that in passing the Irish Cattle Plague Bill through Parliament great injustice was done to Ireland. A certain class of Inspectors in England were paid by the Department; but in Ireland this was not done, and as a consequence, the ratepayers of Dublin had to pay for the inspection of cattle which did not belong to their district, had nothing whatever to do with them, and did not benefit them in the slightest degree. He thought this injustice should be remedied.

MR. MURPHY

said, he did not intend to be drawn into a general debate on the Cattle Bill; but he only wished to remark that, so far as his experience extended, a most rigid system of inspection was practised at the ports, and no beast was allowed to be embarked without having been examined. He did think, however, some better regulations might be made.

MR. PARNELL

said, before the Vote passed, he wished to call attention to an item which seemed to him to be very extravagant. Under sub-head D, there were charges for journies to London and Dublin of draftsmen of Bills amounting to £480. He had in his hand a list of the number of Irish Bills prepared and brought in by the Government during this Parliament. They were very few in number, and chiefly Bills of a very formal character, such as Local Government Provisional Order Bills. He could only suppose, therefore, that the Go- vernment were about to turn over a new leaf, and, with the intention of bringing in a great number of Irish Bills, had given their draftsmen a good deal more work.

MR. J. LOWTHER

remarked, that the Government had desired to be as economical as possible.

Vote agreed to.

(9.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £1,568, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland.

MR. DILLWYN

wished to know whether the Government meant to go on any longer? He was informed that there would be a considerable amount of discussion on the next Vote, and that it was not at all likely that it would be finished that evening. He would, therefore, move to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."— (Mr. Dillwyn.)

MAJOR NOLAN

remarked, that the evening had been given up to these Votes.

MR. BUTT

said, he was going to move the same Motion, not with the intention of dividing on it, but merely in order that he might ask the Chief Secretary not to press the next Vote. He had every desire to assist the Government in passing the Estimates, but that Vote, at any rate, ought not to be passed without some conversation; and, therefore, he thought he was justified in asking the Chief Secretary to postpone it.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, they had now reached an hour when Supply was only taken by the indulgence of the Committee; and, therefore, he thought the request of the hon. and learned Member quite reasonable. So long as the Votes were not seriously contested, he hoped they might be allowed to go on.

MR. DILLWYN

very readily accepted the suggestion, and would withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(10.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £95,796, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board in Ireland.

MR. MELDON

said, some questions arose on this point which would not delay the Committee very long, but were well worthy of discussion. First, he wished to call attention to the staff of Medical Officers and Medical Inspectors employed. They had recently passed a Public Health Bill for Ireland through that House, and, in order that it should work satisfactorily, it was necessary that the Local Government Board should properly administer the duties confided to them by the Act. It was important in Sanitary Acts that there should be proper inspection. In England that was done most satisfactorily. If there was an outbreak of disease anywhere, a special officer was immediately sent down to inquire into the cause of the disease, and to ascertain what measures were necessary to put an end to it. In Dublin, on the other hand, they had had for some time past an exceedingly severe outbreak of small-pox; but, so far as he knew, the Local Government Board had taken no steps whatever to ascertain the causes of that epidemic, or the means by which it could be stopped. The Public Health Committee had, no doubt, been working exceedingly hard in this direction; but, at the same time, duties of that kind should not devolve upon it. If the Local Government Board had not done its duty in Dublin, what must be the case in remote country districts? Unless the Local Government Board was provided with Inspectors to send about the country and make inquiries, the Public Health Act would be useless. These Inspectors were necessary not only to inquire into the causes of epidemics, but to see that the sanitary officers in various places were discharging their duties. An officer often found great difficulty in discharging his duty in an efficient way. There were private interests which he might interfere with, and so injure himself. That rendered it all the more necessary that there should be some supervising officer to see that the work was done. These officers were provided in England; and, therefore, he hoped the matter would be attended to. Another matter to which he wished to call attention was the very great inducements and facilities for vaccination held out in England, as compared with Ireland. When he first moved in this matter, some four years ago, there was £300 a-year devoted to dispensing lymph throughout the country. That had now been increased to £1,200, but still the supply of lymph to the Institution in Dublin was not at all what it ought to be or what was at all sufficient for the requirements of the country. The quantity to be had in England was unlimited, and he did not see why it should not be so in Ireland—whereas, in fact, medical men could not be supplied there with all that they wanted. There was a certain amount of feeling against vaccination in England; but that did not exist in Ireland, and the Vaccination Laws could, therefore, be carried out in that country most effectually. He understood that the authorities in Ireland did not require the Constabulary to be vaccinated, and that in consequence small-pox was raging amongst them. If the statement were true, this ought not to be. In Ireland, nothing was given to encourage vaccination, except this paltry sum of £1,200, for the supply of vaccine gratuitously; whereas, in England, £16,000 was voted annually to medical men as gratuities for successful vaccination. This was very important, because they had had epidemics of small-pox of late; whereas, there was no doubt the disease could be stamped out if proper precautions were taken, and the vaccine were properly used. Again, the fee for vaccination in Ireland was 1s., no matter how far the medical man had to travel; whereas, in England, it averaged 2s. 6d. No doubt, this was a dry subject, but it was an exceedingly important one, and well deserved the attention of the President of the Local Government Board. He hoped that next Session they would see that the matter had received his careful consideration, and that something had been done.

MR. GRAY

said, the Local Government Board was in a very bad way. Last year he divided the Committee on the salary of one Commissioner, and this year, if nobody else did it, he should feel it his duty to divide the Committee on the salaries of all the Commissioners. He had some experience of this Board, and he was of opinion that it did not do its work in at all a satisfactory way. In England, the Poor Law Commissioners were converted, as the Local Government Board, into a real living, working effective body, officially represented in the House, and with many men of high official position upon it; but in Ireland three Commissioners, every one of whom had held his position for a very long time, were converted by a stroke of the pen into the Board. At first it was attempted to make a few clerks in the Chief Secretary's Office into the Irish Local Government Board, under the title of the Local Government Board of the Chief Secretary's Office. This failed, owing to the Act being badly drawn and unworkable. Then the three Poor Law Commissioners were made the Board, with the addition, pro formâ, of the Chief and Under Secretaries. From his experience as Chairman of the Public Health Committee of the Dublin Corporation, he said the Board was utterly useless. In England, the Board did its work, issuing Circulars, attending to outbreaks of infectious disease, and looking into various other matters; but in Ireland they did nothing, or as next to nothing as was possible. As a matter of fact, as a Sanitary Board, they did no sanitary work, exercised no supervision whatever, and did nothing to stimulate local bodies to attend to their duties. Unless they re-organized this Board, the Public Health Act that they had recently passed would be a dead letter. He would give them a sample of what kind of men this Board was composed of. One of the Commissioners sent a complaint to the Dublin Public Health Committee a little while ago. He said that his house was rendered unfit to live in, because of the public sewers not being ventilated; and gave them a pretty little disquisition how the sewer gas rose in an opposite direction to the fall of the liquid contents of the sewer, and entered his house by the house drain, causing his servant to get typhoid fever. The sanitary authority ventilated the sewer, and then investigated this Commissioner's own house. They found it in a condition simply frightful—in fact, when the basement was torn up, it was found to be little better than a cesspool. In this case it might have been said— "Doctor, cure thyself." But what hope was there of real sanitary reform with such men at the head of affairs. Last year, at the request of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick, a Commission investigated the Board of Works, and it was found to be in a very rotten state. He was convinced, if an impartial inquiry were made into the state of the Local Government Board, it would be found to be in an infinitely worse state. That being so, he would not divide the Committee against any one individual of the three composing the Board; but would move the reduction of the Vote by £4,200, the salary of the three Commissioners, because he believed they did no effective work.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £91,396, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board in Ireland."—(Mr Gray.)

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, he had carefully considered the position of these Commissioners as affected by the Public Health Act, and no doubt the new duties imposed on them would require consideration as regarded the staff. He certainly would inquire concerning vaccination. He was not aware at all that vaccination had been neglected in the Constabulary, until the hon. Member mentioned it, and he would inquire into the matter. He knew that the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Gray) felt strongly about the Commissioners; but he could only say that he knew those gentlemen were actuated by a sincere desire to do their duty, and he hoped the Committee would support the Vote.

MR. GRAY

said, it was well known that one of these gentlemen had done nothing for years upon years except sign his name on the back of cheques for his own salary. No mere re-construction of the Office, in fact, would do. These gentlemen had been where they were too long, and were now too old for work. The Chief Secretary was in error also in supposing that new duties had been imposed by the Public Health Act. It was little more than a consolidation of the law which the Local Government Board had neglected to put into effective operation.

MR. MELDON

said, everyone who came from Ireland knew the Local Government Board to be thoroughly useless. But even if they were not to blame that was no reason why a Parliamentary Committee should not be allowed to investigate the way in which they discharged their duties. The health of Ireland was a very important consideration. For months a tremendous epidemic had been raging in Dublin, and nothing whatever had been done to stop it, although the medical men of the city had foretold its coming long before. The hospital accommodation, too, was so bad that for some time people had to be nursed in wooden sheds, until something better could be got ready. The same thing had happened before; and therefore, he thought they were justified in asking for an inquiry, and should not be put off in the cavalier way they had been by the Chief Secretary. The statements they made about the Board of Works were verified by the Report now on the Table; and that, he contended, justified their asking for an inquiry into this Board also. He did not think there was a Member who knew anything of this Board who would not endorse the representations made that night on this very important subject.

MAJOR NOLAN

said, the experience of Dublin was not singular. In a small town in his county, 10 per cent of the population died from an epidemic, and he was quite sure half of them might have been saved if proper and prompt measures of repression had been taken. Whenever there was an outbreak of small-pox, they ought, at the moment, to know what to do, just as a General at the head of the Medical Department would act. There ought to be plans ready cut-and-dried. A small town in the county of Galway had furnished a striking example of the necessity of prompt measures being taken with regard to this disease. He thought the Irish Members ought to press their opposition; and if they persisted in doing so, he certainly would support them, for unless they pressed this question upon the consideration of the Government, the deaths of many persons in Ireland would lie at their doors.

MR. PARNELL

was reluctant to speak upon this question, because it was a serious thing to do, or say, anything which might diminish the confidence of the people of Ireland in the beneficial effects of vaccination; for there could be no doubt that such results had been arrived at, so far as he had been able to ascertain. But he looked with some concern at what he considered the carelessness which the President of the Local Government Board seemed to display in regard to the question of obtaining a supply of pure lymph; for now the medical men of Ireland were supplied with vaccine matter from English sources, and had not their own to go to, as formerly. In passing, he might observe that the medical practitioners in Ireland had always manifested the greatest desire to obtain pure lymph, exercising the utmost care in collecting it; and for this trouble they had not been at all recompensed. But all that had been changed, and now vaccine matter was sent to Ireland from England. That course had been adopted in compliance, he believed, with the request of the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry), who had complained of the difficulties the medical men laboured under, and asked that they might, in future, be able to obtain lymph for the purposes of vaccination from the Institution in England that collected the matter. But it was a remarkable circumstance that the outbreak of small-pox, to which reference had been made, occurred shortly after the lymph had been drawn from the new sources of supply; and it was certainly calculated to create considerable distrust in the minds of the people who had hitherto thought well of vaccination, when they observed that the sending of matter from England was followed by a severe outbreak of disease in Dublin, such as had not been witnessed for a considerable number of years. He should like to see greater attention paid, by those who were responsible, to the collection of lymph, and greater security given that it should not be the vehicle of disease. So far as he could gather from what had fallen from the President of the Local Government Board, there was no security attending the collection of this lymph. The people might, at any time, be blood-poisoned, or infected with diseases of the most horrible character, through impure vaccine matter being used when persons were re-vaccinated. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would be pressed to give some guarantee that the lymph they supplied was not likely to communicate any disease.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

scarcely thought he could have rightly heard the hon. Member who had just sat down, when he understood him to say that no adequate care was taken by the Local Government Board to secure lymph of a pure character. As he had already explained on a former occasion, the contrary was the fact. Every conceivable care was taken to obtain pure lymph for vaccination purposes; and he, therefore, defied any hon. Gentleman to point out a single case in which lymph sent out from the Local Government Board Office had been followed by any deleterious consequences whatever. Every specimen of lymph that was issued, whether to Ireland or elsewhere, was first subjected to the most minute microscopical examination; and where there was the slightest doubt as to its purity, the matter was rejected. He was not aware that any imputation had ever been cast upon the purity of the lymph supplied.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, after all, that was only a collateral issue. The main question was, would the Government institute an inquiry into the working of this Department, similar to that made into the management of the Board of Works. However unpleasant, the facts ought to be brought to light by an investigation. Certain statements had been made in the Committee that evening which could not be ignored. They had been made on the authority of the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Gray), and it became the duty of some Member of the Government to refute them, or else grant an inquiry. He appealed to the Government to intimate their intention of making some inquiry into the working of this Department.

MR. BIGGAR

said, it seemed to him that this Local Government Board was in a thoroughly demoralized condition; and that being so, he would not attempt to interfere with it. There was, however, a question raised in the early part of the discussion by the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) to which he should like to refer for a moment, as to the appointment of a further number of Medical Inspectors. For his own part, he was rather disposed to insist upon the present Inspectors per- forming their duty, and when it was found that they discharged their duty satisfactorily, the question of appointing an additional number might then be properly considered. He certainly should not think of doing anything more for these gentlemen, who received salaries, and gave nothing in return.

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) had described his answer as being of a cavalier character. For his part, he did not know what was the definition of the word; but he supposed the hon. Member meant that he had declined to commit himself to any opinion until he had had the opportunity of becoming personally acquainted with the details to which reference had been made in the course of the discussion. He had assured the Committee that he would make himself personally acquainted with the working of the Department, and he hoped to have an early opportunity of doing so. But as to a general inquiry, he did not wish to be understood as holding out a prospect of anything of the kind. He would make a personal inquiry, but beyond that he could not go.

MR. PARNELL

said, great good had been obtained from the inquiry, held last year, into the management of the Board of Works in Ireland; and he believed that good also would be obtained by an inquiry being instituted into the working of the Local Government Board in Ireland. Unless the Committee were prepared to put off for a whole year the benefits which would be derived from such inquiry, the Vote ought to be postponed; but if the Vote were passed, they were not likely to get the desired inquiry until that time next year, when the question would again come before the Committee. A whole year would thus be lost. With reference to the microscopical examination of lymph upon which the President of the Local Government Board relied for the purposes of insuring the purity of the matter supplied from that Office, it was a well-known fact amongst scientific men that no amount of microscopical examination was sufficient to insure that lymph was free from disease—in truth, no examination of whatever kind could guarantee that result. The only way in which they could insure that lymph was not diseased was by knowing all the people from whom the matter had come, or by tracing it to the original source of supply. The lymph was taken, in the first instance, from the calf, and if they knew it passed through no impure channel afterwards, then they might conclude that it was not contaminated. There was no other way that he was aware of for insuring the purity of vaccine matter.

MR. BELL

expressed his determination to support the Amendment, unless, upon the appeal of Irish Members, the Government held out some hope of clearing up this matter.

MR. J. LOWTHER

thought the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) had misunderstood what he wished to convey. What he wished to convey to the Committee was that, as President of the Local Government Board in Ireland, he had never yet had an opportunity of making himself personally acquainted with the individuals whose conduct of the Department had been impugned; and that he hoped, before long, to investigate the matter personally. Considering the state of Public Business in the House, it was hardly necessary for him to say that he could not hope to make that inquiry at present. He could not see his way to making a journey over to Ireland until the termination of the Session. If the Vote were postponed, of course the whole of the Medical Service would come to an end for the year, which result, he presumed, hon. Members opposite did not desire. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Bell) had said until this matter was cleared up he should be bound to oppose the Vote. He thought, however, the hon. Gentleman would agree with him that the Government would not be justified in consenting to a general inquiry until he (Mr. Lowther) had had an opportunity of personally acquainting himself with the matter. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would not insist upon the proposed inquiry.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

called especial attention to the answer just given, as showing the inconvenience of putting the whole of the State Offices connected with Ireland upon the shoulders of one man. He regretted that the challenge thrown out by the hon. Member on the Bench behind him (Mr. Gray), with reference to the Local Government Board in Ireland, was not to be accepted by the Government. From what he himself knew of the officers of the Local Government Board, he did not think they would object to such an inquiry being instituted as that which the hon. Member (Mr. Gray) had suggested. There might be defects in the operations of such a Department, for it was one difficult to work. It constantly came into collision with local authorities all over the country; but, on the whole, its work was generally good, and, consequently, would bear investigation. When the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. Lowther) did not pretend to know the details of the office sufficiently to enable him to deny the charge which had been made with regard to the working of the Department, it was really due, not only to the Local Government Board itself, but to the Government and Administration in Ireland, that an inquiry should take place.

MR. GRAY

said, this matter had assumed a somewhat serious aspect. He had no fault to find with the administration of the Poor Law by the Local Government Board in Ireland; but he did maintain that they failed in the administration of the new duties cast upon them by the Sanitary Acts. One of the Commissioners, the Hon. Mr. Bellew, never did anything. The Medical Commissioner, Mr. King, devoted no attention to the stimulating of sanitary authorities to action. The Local Government Board in Ireland was in the wrong in not constantly issuing Circulars, model bye-laws, advice, and suggestions of all kinds, which had the most beneficial effect in England. He had to get such information at the Local Government Board in London as could not be obtained in Ireland. The right hon. Baronet the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, and formerly Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), would remember a discussion which took place on this subject last year, when pressure was put upon the Government to consent to an inquiry as to the constitution and management of the Board of Works in Ireland, and also as to the Local Government Board in that country. He could not say that any distinct promise was made; but his recollection led him to believe that something in the shape of a hope was held out that the investigation should take place, and if any necessity for reform was shown, there should be a full and complete inquiry as to all branches of the subject. He would also remind the House—and in this he was also in the recollection of the right hon. Baronet—that in the Committee of which he was Chairman, the Secretary of the Irish Board was called, and was unable to give any information, so that it became necessary to call English witnesses to explain the meaning and working of the Irish Act.

MR. MELDON

thought it was not possible profitably to discuss so important an Amendment at that late hour—1.20 A.M.—and, therefore, he moved to report Progress. In doing so, he must express surprise that the Government would not assent to the appointment of a Departmental Committee to inquire into and report upon matters of so great importance as those involved in the Vote before the Committee.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Meldon.)

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, it was perfectly true that he was Chairman of the Committee which inquired last year into the working of the Irish Sanitary Acts, and he remembered that the Secretary of the Irish Local Government Board was summoned as a witness; but it was not from any inability on his part to give information that, after being in attendance for two or three days, the gentleman returned to Ireland. It was necessary that he should return, in order to attend to certain departmental work requiring his personal supervision. With regard to the members of the Local Government Board, he had had frequent personal communication, during his tenure of Office in Ireland, with Sir Alfred Power, and felt bound to say that he was one of the best, if not the best, officials in the service of the Irish Executive. It had been stated, broadly, in the course of the discussion, that Mr. Bellew did no work; but he should like to know what proof the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Gray) had for that assertion? No doubt, the members of the Board divided the work between themselves in the most convenient manner; but he believed it to be equally true that Mr. Bellew took a share of the work in his own De- partment, and discharged it in an efficient manner. The same remark applied, as far as his own observation had enabled him to form an opinion, to the other members of the Department. Since the Act of 1874 was passed, he had no hesitation in saying that the Irish Local Government Board had done all that was possible to spread a knowledge of sanitary law among the local authorities who had to administer it, and had themselves discharged thoroughly all the duties which the Act imposed upon them.

MR. GRAY

repeated, that he was perfectly accurate in saying that the Secretary to the Irish Board was not able to give information to the Committee, and appealed to hon. Members of the House who were also Members of the Committee for confirmation of his statement.

MR. BIGGAR

said, that in his opinion the gentleman was in a position of literally knowing nothing of the subjects in reference to which questions were put to him. In short, he might say that he had never met a more incompetent man. He could say nothing as to why the gentleman left the Committee; but he could say with confidence that he could give no information of the least value on the points which were put to him in the course of his examination.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, his recollection was perfectly clear upon one point—namely, that the hon. Member for Cavan, who had made these sweeping charges against Mr. Banks, was not present at more than two or three sittings of the Committee, which sat at least a dozen times.

MR. BELL

hoped that after the statement of the right hon. Baronet, the Amendment would be withdrawn.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 78: Majority 46.—(Div. List, No. 212.)

Original Question again proposed.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

, who thought it was time for the Committee to adjourn, moved that the Chairman leave the Chair. A great deal of Business had been got through, and he thought the Government ought to be pleased with that fact and assent to his Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. O'Sullivan.)

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, as there had been considerable discussion on this subject, he hoped the hon. Gentleman would allow the Vote to be taken, and the three others which were immediately to follow. There was, he understood, a general desire on the part of Irish Members that Class II. should be disposed of that night. Of course, if it was not the wish of Irish Members generally now to proceed, he would not press the Votes on. He hoped, however, that the Amendment would be withdrawn.

MR. BUTT

did not see what would be gained by postponing this question. It had been discussed, and he saw no reason why the Committee should not at once come to a final decision upon it. He hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Sullivan) would withdraw his Motion.

MAJOR O'GORMAN

had no objection to the passing of several of these Votes, provided that the Government would make the promise that the time occupied with the discussion of them would be taken from that wretched Sunday Closing Bill. He would not, by his own consent, allow the Government to get one penny until they had abandoned the principle which they had, up to that moment, adopted of giving every description of indulgence to those people who wished to make themselves Irish Home Rule coercionists.

MAJOR NOLAN

urged the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. O'Sullivan) to withdraw his Motion.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

said, as it was the general wish of his hon. Friends, he would no longer stand in the way.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Question again proposed.

MR. GRAY

expressed his intention not to divide the House on the present occasion. He hoped the Chief Secretary for Ireland would see reason to change his mind, and would grant the inquiry which had been asked for. Unless his own views changed considerably on this subject, he should consider it to be his imperative duty to press this question more strongly upon the Committee next Session. He hoped that the Govern- ment would consider the question between this and next year.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(11.) £4,524, to complete the sum for the Record Office, Ireland.

(12.) £12,659, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Office, Ireland.

(13.) £16,244, to complete the sum for the Valuation and Boundary Survey, Ireland.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;

Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.