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MR. MARK STEWART rose to call attention to the recent practice of the Scotch Education Department in giving grants to schools, where such grants are not necessarily required for the education of the population of the parish or district in which such schools are situated. The hon. Member had a Motion on the Paper, which, however, according to the Rules of the House, he was unable to bring forward, as follows:—
To call attention to the recent practice of the Scotch Education Department in giving grants to schools where such grants are not necessarily required for the education of the population of the parish or district in which such schools are situated: and to move that, in the existing circumstances of education in Scotland, it is inexpedient to continue the practice of giving grants where not absolutely required.
He said, that his motive in drawing attention to this subject was a very simple one, and one easily explained. It was well known that since 1872, when the Education Act for Scotland was passed, the whole of that country had been under school boards; and it had been one of the primary duties of these boards to see that proper and efficient schools were erected and maintained in every parish in Scotland. That had been done, at all events, in the whole of the Southern part of Scotland, and there were ample testimony and record, if necessary to produce them there, that the buildings which had been erected were very satisfactory. They were very large—indeed, he almost questioned whether they were not too large—because, while provision had been made for every child in a parish, it was a well-known fact that more than 10, 15, or even 20 per cent of children in many parishes could not possibly be present all at the same time. There could be no doubt, however, that the existing school arrangements, and the circumstances which had led to them, were such that there was ample accommodation. The regulations which had been laid down had been complied with by the boards; but this could not have been done without considerable trouble. There were difficulties connected with writing the Board of Education in Scotland, and then to the Education Department
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in London, and in other ways; and it was only after a considerable time had elapsed that the system had been perfected, or, at all events, completed. When that was the case, it was rather hard that any individual who chose to set up another school might come into the district and found what he might term an adventure institution, in defiance of the schools which had been already erected there under Act of Parliament, and which were fully furnished in every way. What was the result of doing so? It had happened in various places in Scotland, and the result had simply been this—that while there had been a school erected, say for 100 children, there was, a few yards distant, another school capable of accommodating 300 or 400. The latter's children were drawn from the parent school, so to speak, and to that extent the parent school suffered. Not only, too, had the board school been built out of the rates, but it had been erected on the understanding that an Education Grant for every child would be given to it by the Government. Such a school was fulfilling all the requirements of the education system. It was examined yearly by Government Inspectors, and it had its responsible master and teachers; but, in spite of all that, and many other considerations which he could adduce, another school was allowed to be put up, which drained the board school of its children, often for no reason except that of rivalry, and the consequence was, that the ratepayers had paid a great deal of money in vain, that the school teachers did not get what properly belonged to them—the grant of the Government, as well as the fees of the children; and that, as a result of that, the master of a board school could not obtain the same class of teachers in a parish, and that his power weakened. More than that, the present state of matters caused a feeling of injustice to rankle in the mind—a feeling that, after everything required by Parliament had been done, after the Conscience Clause had been observed with the greatest care, and after nothing whatever had been done to forfeit the Government grants, yet the latter had been taken away from them, as it were, and new schools were allowed to be erected alongside of the parent schools. That was obviously a great hardship, and had proved so in
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various districts in Scotland. Take the case of one burgh with which he was familiar. He did not find fault with any denominational system which could be found in operation in that burgh. It was well known that Scotland was a Presbyterian country, and that, while the Shorter Catechism and the Bible were used in the board schools, there was a Conscience Clause which prevented anything being done in the way of forcing religion down the throats of the scholars—a clause which, as he had already indicated, had been most honourably and uprightly observed. He had never known any school system in Scotland which had been carried on by proselytizing the children of the neighbourhood. The children came to their lessons if they liked; if they did not like, they remained away, but came at 10 o'clock and then received secular education. From the burgh to which he referred there was a Memorial sent up to the Education Department, in order to obtain a grant for a new school to be erected there, and the argument he had been using pressed very hard upon the ratepayers there. The teachers found in time that they were losing some 75 children. The ratepayers found that they had erected buildings to the tune of £1,500, which were, in part, no longer serviceable in the sense of being necessary, and considerable controversy had been occasioned in the town. He knew another case—that of a remote Highland glen—where a rival school was established, and the same thing happened. Feuds arose between respective families, and children who had been living together in the utmost possible harmony up to that moment, on finding a rival accommodation school set up within a few yards of that which they had been in the habit of attending, immediately began to fight and call each other names. There could be no doubt whatever that a grievance existed. He thought he knew what his noble Friend (Lord George Hamilton) would reply—that all this was done under an Act of Parliament, or, at all events, under the interpretation which was put upon the section of a clause in an Act of Parliament. But what he complained of was, that this was not done by an Act of Parliament at all, but by a rule established by the Education Department in London. Considering that the Conscience Clause was so well observed,
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and that ample provision existed in the localities for all children who were of age to attend school, he could not see how the clause, upon which the noble Lord would no doubt rely, could be made to apply so precisely as it appeared to be the wish of the Department to make it apply. He once more called the attention of the noble Lord to the extreme hardship of the case, that when a Board had done everything in its power to comply with the Government demands, it should be found wanting, not through any fault of its own, but because some private individual came into the district—no matter who or what he might be—and set up an adventure school. Sometimes such a man got children into his place by lowering the fees; and it was evident that, in such a case, he also lowered the standard of education throughout the country. He turned now to another point. He desired to give Notice that when the House got into Committee on the Education Estimates, he should endeavour, by moving the reduction of the Vote, to insist upon the Government saying what they intended to do with regard to the Scotch Education Department in London. The House knew very well that many Scotch Members had taken a keen interest in this matter, and that the time had almost expired when it would be possible to frame and pass an Act to restore the Board of Education in Edinburgh. That Board would expire on, he thought, the 6th of August; and he was bound to say that he thought the present system, when no longer under the Board of Education, would be in a most unsatisfactory state. There was no Scotch Department in reality in London. He was quite aware that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Lord Advocate, and Sir Francis Sandford—and no one was a better judge of Scotch matters, and especially of education matters than Sir Francis—were supposed to be always there. Sir Francis Sandford, he repeated, was a most attentive official; but he was not able to overtake all the difficulties of such a question as that which he had been narrating to the House, and it would be most desirable to have an Assistant Secretary told off in connection with Scotch business, and in connection with Scotch Educational Business specially. Sir Francis might have to go to one part of the country to-day
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and to another part to-morrow, and it was obviously impossible that he could give his sole and undivided attention to these questions which were continually cropping up for discussion before the House and the country. He gave notice—and he repeated the intimation—that in Committee he would move that no money be granted until there had been an explicit declaration made on the part of the Government on this question. But he hoped that the Government would be prepared to give a clear and decided answer on the point. There was an intensity of feeling on this subject amongst Scotchmen of which the noble Lord could hardly be aware. He would be bound to say that if a General Election took place to-morrow—to put it on no higher ground—a great many hon. Gentlemen would be questioned on the subject, and would have to say whether they desired to see something definitely established and settled on a really Scotch basis in regard to this particular matter. He thought he had said enough to show that there were points on which it was necessary to have a distinctly Scotch opinion, and on this question he was satisfied that he should have the support of many Scotch Members, if not of all.
§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEsaid, he could not agree in the sweeping terms of the Resolution which the hon. Member for the Wigtown Burghs had placed upon the Table, but which, by the Rules of the House, could not be put from the Chair; and which, if it could be put, could not be passed without being a violation of the Education Act of 1872. But he thought it lay with the Department itself to administer the Act in a manner which would even satisfy those who felt very keenly on this subject. The grievance was in many cases a practical one, for after a school board had been obedient to the law, and had made every provision for the education of the children of the neighbourhood, a private school might be started under the sanction of the Department. This might be justified; but to make out a justification it was absolutely necessary for the parties to show that they were aggrieved by the action of the school board. The words of the Statute were embodied in the Code, and after saying "grants shall not be made unless the debt is satisfied," &c., there were the words— 802
Due regard being had to the religious belief of the parents, or to any other special requirements of the locality.He did not conceive that that provision justified any person in coming forward and saying that no provision had been made for the religious education of the children. It must be more than that—namely, that the teaching supplied in the schools was of a kind that would deter them from sending their children to the schools. On its being shown that a school was conducted upon a religious system which would deter them from sending their children to the school, then, and then only, should the action of the Department come in as a protection to the conscientious scruples of those who felt themselves aggrieved. Having said this, he would say that this question touched one of the tenderest parts of the Scottish Education system, and it was far from his wish that the Department should be so tied up in its action as to be precluded from giving assistance under those circumstances. Roman Catholic schools had been referred to; but the grievance was not a specially Roman Catholic one. It would be felt by conscientious Presbyterians as well as by Roman Catholics. From the large powers given to school boards, it necessarily followed that power must be given to the Department to act in case of a school board using its powers oppressively towards the minority. He only wished the noble Lord and his Department would act with courage in this matter, and he was sure they would have the support of the great body in that House.
§ MR. RAMSAYsaid, he was glad the hon. Member for the Wigtown Burghs had raised this question, which was one that excited much attention in Scotland. It was not Roman Catholic schools, but schools of all denominations, that had been encouraged by grants from the Education Department, after the school boards had, in accordance with the law, provided adequate accommodation for all the population within the several parishes or burghs. The hardship could only occur where adequate accommodation had been provided; but the fact was that the school boards had been compelled in nearly all cases to provide adequate accommodation for all the scholars in the several parishes and burghs of Scotland. While he felt that there was a hardship, 803 he also felt that nothing which could be oppressive to the conscientious feelings of parents in matters affecting their religious belief should be sanctioned or countenanced in any way by the Department. It was very true that where school boards had carried out the rules laid down by Parliament for their guidance in respect of religious education, children of all denominations attended the schools in many instances; but, in Scotland, where the great majority belonged to the various Presbyterian Bodies, it was usual to have religious education provided in accordance with the standard in use in the Presbyterian Churches; and one could understand that where there was a sufficient body of Roman Catholics to fill a school, the Catholic parents might desire their children to be under, not a Protestant teacher, but a teacher of their own denomination. He thought the Department would act wisely with each case that came before them of an application for a grant for a denominational school, if they would endeavour, in the first instance, to get the school board to make the rules relating to religious instruction such as might remove the objections of parents, whatever denomination they might belong to. If that were done, probably there would be fewer cases of hardship. He now came to the constitution of the Department itself. Before they were asked to vote any money, it would be well to receive some explanations as to the position in which Scotland was to be placed. The Department had no tangible existence. It was no disrespect to the noble Lord to say that he must feel that he was very imperfectly acquainted with the educational condition of Scotland, or with the feelings and sentiments of the Scottish people. The noble Duke at the head of the Department might not always be there, and his immediate Predecessor was a Nobleman in whom the people of Scotland would not have had much confidence. They would not think that to entrust to a Roman Catholic the administration of the educational affairs of this country was a thing which they would have done. Now the Department, as he had said, might be spoken of as having no existence, because the noble Lord's immediate Predecessor (Viscount Sandon) answered a Question in that House, by saying that the Committee had not met 804 since the passing of the Scotch Education Act. He believed there had been a meeting recently for the purpose of appointing the present respected and trusted Lord Advocate as a Member of the Department. But this was but a mockery of the feelings and wants of the people of Scotland. It was not to be supposed that that learned Gentleman and the noble Lord his Predecessor were consulted much by the Department. Recently there was a discussion on a Motion by the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Pease), when attention was called to a change made in the Education Code, having strict reference to the Motion of the hon. Member for the Wigtown Burghs (Mr. Mark Stewart). The Department had taken on themselves to alter the express provisions of an Act of Parliament in relation to this very subject. The words of the Statute were—
Provided that the Parliamentary grant shall not be made in respect of a school established after the passing of this Act, not being a public school,but the Department had omitted altogether from the Code the words—"not being a public school." He believed that on that occasion some complaint was made that notice had not been taken of the subject when the Code was laid on the Table of the House; but he confessed he should never have believed that the Department could be capable of altering an express provision of an Act of Parliament, for he held that the Code was to be so framed when laid before Parliament as to carry out the Statute, but not to over-ride or ignore an express statutory provision. He did not imagine that if the two learned gentlemen who were members of the Department and Scotch lawyers had been consulted, they would have expressed an opinion that it was competent for them to introduce such a rule into the Code. This afforded an illustration of the want of a really Scotch element in the administration of the Scotch system of Education. Then there was another point in the instructions regarding sites for schools. The Department had included the Act 4 & 5 Vict., cap. 38, as one which was to guide those who were framing the titles to sites in favour of the school boards. Now, that Act, as he read it, did not apply to Scotland at all, and if it had been the wish of 805 the Department to obtain a legal opinion, they might have obtained it from the Lord Advocate or his immediate Predecessor. The 4 & 5 Vict., cap. 38, was put into his hands for the purpose of enabling him to frame a title for the school board in a district where he had property. When he looked at it, he found it only applied to those who held their lands on freehold, copyhold, or customary tenure, and they had no such tenure in Scotland. Although the Act, as framed by the draftsman, was intended to apply to Scotland, it was quite evident that it was not applicable. But there were more important particulars in which it was essential that they should have a national Scotch element in the Department. It was not enough that they should have able and talented men to administer their affairs. He fully admitted their ability and their courtesy. In the first Vote which they would be asked to sanction that night, he found that the officers of the Department were enumerated. They had the respected Secretary at the head of the Executive, and they had four assistants, one of whom, he believed, usually acted for Scotland; but he must, as occasion required, interchange his services with others who were only acquainted with matters affecting English education, and were usually employed in dealing with them. There were eight senior examiners, none of them, he understood, being at all employed in any work connected with Scotland. There were 19 junior examiners, and it was to one or more of that number that the Scotch schools were entrusted. He could not conceive anything more unsatisfactory than this. Apparently it had been resolved by Ministers that the Board of Education should be discontinued. He said nothing about that; but they had another Bill before the House, affecting education in Scotland—the Endowed Schools Bill, and he would urge that they must have some separate and distinct connection with the Department in London, or that the Board in Scotland should be perpetuated. He hoped the Government would give heed to the educational sentiment of Scotland, and would do nothing to lower the present standard of education. In fact, it was enjoined that in framing the Code care should be taken by the Scotch Education Department 806 that the standard of education should not be lowered. Well, that was a precautionary measure against the risk of that standard being lowered. He thought Ministers ought to see that it was elevated to the highest attainable point. But if Scotch education were put under those who were only acquainted with English sentiment, nothing was more certain than that the Scotch system would be deteriorated the moment it came under the exclusive influence of English sentiment on that subject. It was a fact, that the Scotch sentiment on education was so essentially different from that of England, that, whether in London or in Edinburgh, Scotch educational affairs ought to be administered by a separate and distinct body from that which administered the same affairs in England. He hoped that England at no distant day would come to be prompted by such a feeling as to education. He believed that would come about; but now they were to undergo a process of degradation of the standard of education, because of the desire to concentrate the administration of affairs in one body. Nothing more detrimental to the best interests of this land could possibly be done, and he trusted that Ministers would never lend themselves to such a system. He might as well allude to the fact that the provisions in relation to education and the endowed schools were not what he should have expected from right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were framing measures for promoting the best interests of the people of this country. He found nothing like an attempt to provide for that higher education which they all desired the people should have within their reach. He observed that the Home Secretary shook his head at that statement. He hoped they should be saved from any educational deterioration by persons being appointed to the Department to be employed exclusively on Scotch Business and acquainted with the sentiment of the people of Scotland, instead of the business being left to those who ignored that feeling, or regarded it with distrust, and would seek to place them in the same position as those who complained that attempts were made to elevate the standard of education in England. He would suggest that when the Endowed Schools Bill was before the House——
§ MR. M'LAREN rose to Order and wished to know whether it was competent to the hon. Member to discuss the Endowed Schools Bill?
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid, that it was certainly not competent for the hon. Member to do so. He would point out to the hon. Member that the Endowed Schools Bill was put down for consideration on a future day, and the discussion upon it could not now be anticipated.
§ MR. RAMSAYsaid, he did not intend to discuss the special provisions of the Endowed Schools Bill; but he was not surprised at the impatience shown by his hon. Friend in regard to any censure being passed on the provisions of that measure, seeing that it had so far received his sanction. He would suggest, however, that advantage might be taken of the measure before the House for the purpose of forming a body which should take charge not only of the higher education of Scotland, but of elementary education. He hoped that Ministers might avail themselves to some extent of his suggestion on two points. The first was, that if there was to be nothing in Scotland of the nature which he contemplated, and which he thought would be best, then that they should have separate officials in the Department here to whom Scotland could look and trust as being in accord with Scottish sentiments and feelings on the subject of education. He thought, moreover, it would be an advantage if, in addition to the right hon. and learned Gentleman who represented Scotland in the Department, they had men—and there were good men in that House—to act as a Council in the Department. The day was not far distant when they would require to appoint, not a President of the Council as the head of the Education Department, but a Minister who should devote his attention specially to the cause of education; and the more that was considered, the more necessary would it appear that education should be dealt with as a separate Department of the State, and in all respects placed on an equal footing with the other Departments of Government. He believed the noble Duke who was now at the head of this Department was as anxious for the welfare of their common country as anyone could be; but that he should at the same time be discussing the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill and measures 808 for the promotion of education was an anomaly which he thought right hon. Gentlemen opposite would not attempt to justify as that which was best if they were now to have a new system established. He thanked the House for having listened to him so long and so patiently.
§ MR. M'LARENsaid, he had the misfortune to differ with a great deal of what had been said that evening. He was not a believer at all in the deterioration of the education which was at present given in the schools in Scotland. He did not think that at any period was the education given in the common schools of Scotland better than it was at the present time. As far as he had been able to learn from the most eminent judges—such, for example, as the Chairman of the School Board in Edinburgh, the Rev. Dr. Scott, a man of great experience, and many others whom he could name, it was a mere delusion to suppose that there had been a deterioration going on in the education given in the schools of Scotland. He believed that, taking any test they liked, it would be found that there was a greater number of efficients in the higher branches than there ever were before. There was another point as to which he should like to state the impression on his own mind derived from such sources of information as he had had access to. It had been alleged that there was a great and general demand for an independent school authority in Scotland to regulate common schools of that country. He thought that the best thing that could be done with the school board authorities in Scotland was to leave them alone, and not meddle with them. They were all in working trim now, and in his opinion they needed no superintendence whatever. Everything was carefully laid down in the Act, and if they would just allow those authorities to go on, every benefit would be obtained which could be reasonably expected in the circumstances of the case. He thought it was a great mistake to suppose there had been a general outcry in Scotland for a Scotch Board of Education. What outcry there had been was got up very much by people more or less interested in this subject. It had not emanated from the great bulk of the people.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that his noble Friend the 809 Vice President would probably have occasion to speak before the Speaker left the Chair on other questions which might be raised in connection with his Department; and, possibly, it might seem wanting in respect to the Scotch nation generally if a few words were not said on the question raised by his hon. Friend, and which had been the subject of the last two or three speeches. The House might be well assured that the question of Scotch education was one which was in no danger of being neglected by the Government. They had felt that it was undesirable to maintain any longer the separate Board, which had been temporarily in existence in Edinburgh; but, now that that Board was coming to an end, it would, of course, be the duty of the Government to make proper arrangements for the due conduct of Scotch educational business. There did now exist a Scotch Education Department. At present its Members were the Lord President of the Council, the Vice President of the Council, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Gordon of Drumearn, and the Lord Advocate. That Education Committee did meet, or would meet, for business of an important character deserving consideration of the whole Board; and, no doubt, when the temporary Board came to an end, the services of the new Board would be more frequently required than was the case at present. In addition to that, of course, the great mass of the Scotch education business was done, just as the great mass of the English education business was, by the Lord President and Vice President. The Committee of Council on Education was summoned from time to time when important questions connected with English education arose, as, for instance, the bringing in of a new Bill or the making of any material alterations in the Code. And the case would be similar with the Scotch department. But what he apprehended the hon. Gentleman probably spoke in reference to was the administrative part of the business. It was certain that that administrative part of the business ought to be very carefully attended to, and it was the intention of his noble Friends the Lord President and the Vice President to organize the department, and to take care that Scotch business should be duly represented and conducted 810 by men who devoted themselves to that business, so as to acquire a proper acquaintance with it. Although, up to the present time, the Estimates had been so framed that all the administrations came together, yet it was intended in the Estimates for next year to place the Vote for one of the assistant secretaries, who would be specially engaged in Scotch business, and also so many examiners as might be necessary under the head of Scotch Education. So that there would be a Scotch administration, he would not say all composed of Scotchmen, but of men conversant with Scotch business. They would conduct the business under the general directions of the Lord President and the Committee which he had mentioned, and he thought there would be a thorough desire to treat Scotch business upon Scotch principles. If Scotch gentlemen desired to carry their Scotch principles to the extreme, he himself would be quite ready to make the grants in pounds Scotch rather than English. But they would not, perhaps, care to go that length. He could, however, assure hon. Gentlemen that the matter was receiving due consideration.
§ MR. LYON PLAYFAIRexpressed his gratification at the speech which they had just heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was useless crying over spilt milk. They had fought as gallantly as they could the fight of the Scotch Education Board, and they had been beaten. He did not intend to say anything to that; but he had been about to suggest what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with all the authority of the Leader of the House. To satisfy the Scotch people it would be necessary in future, in framing the Estimates, so to arrange the Scotch Business that they would know whom to apply to for the administration of the Scotch Department. Therefore what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman would give satisfaction when it was read in Scotland. As to the Scotch Education Department, that, as they all knew, was, like the English Education Department, very much of a myth. It was summoned to approve the decisions which were come to laboriously by the President and Vice President of the Council when a Code came in; but it was a merely formal meeting, and it very rarely had an effective charge of administration; 811 but the point to which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded, of a division of the Estimates and a distinct allocation of persons either in Edinburgh or in the Office to Scotch Education Business, would, he was sure, give great satisfaction in Scotland, yet he did not see why the Government should wait till next year to do that. Increased Estimates were not wanted, but only an adjustment of present Estimates. That was an administrative detail which Sir Francis Sandford could settle in a short time.