THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONSir, I have been under the necessity of communicating to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer the fact that I should think it my duty to put several Questions to him this evening upon several important subjects. The first of those Questions is, Whether the terms of peace demanded by Russia have arrived, and are known to the Government? and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will also be able to state at what hour they arrived yesterday? and also, whether Her Majesty's Government were aware that those terms were before the Porte, and were under the consideration of the Porte, at the time that the Notice which the Government gave yesterday was given? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman may also be able to state, whether there is any foundation for the rumour, which I believe has within the last hour or two been spread, that preliminaries of peace or an armistice have actually been signed by the Porte? Sir, I have further to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether he can inform the House whether any steps have been taken, or any instructions have been given, for measures to be taken, which have not yet been communicated to Parliament? And, Sir, I have further to ask—and this Question, I must admit, is based upon nothing but popular rumour and newspaper statements; rumours and statements which, however, I think it would be mere affectation to despise— whether there is any foundation for the report that more than one influential 465 Member of Her Majesty's Government has thought it necessary to tender his resignation? Sir, I do hope that the House will believe that in putting these Questions I am not actuated by any idle curiosity. On the contrary, I think it must be evident to the House that, if there is any foundation for such a statement, it must have a most important bearing upon the character of the measure which the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday announced it was his intention to propose for the consideration of the House on Monday. I have only, I think, one further Question to put to the right hon. Gentleman; but it is one as to which I shall have to ask the House to allow mo to enter upon a very short explanation. I must repeat the Question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman yesterday, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to lay upon the Table of the House any further Papers relating to their communications with foreign Powers? I thought that the object of the Question I put yesterday must have been perfectly obvious; but from the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it appeared to me that he did not altogether quite comprehend the object I had in view in putting the Question to him. Sir, the right hon. Gentleman told us the other day that it was a time to speak frankly. I entirely agree with him, and I shall endeavour to speak shortly, and at the same time frankly. The House and the public are, in my opinion, very much mistaken if it is not the opinion of Her Majesty's Government that some of the conditions upon which the neutrality of this country depends are at this moment being imperilled, and the country believes those conditions are conditions which relate to the occupation of Constantinople and the question of the navigation of the Dardanelles. Now, Sir, I am not about to discuss those conditions, but I must say that side by side with the declaration which was made upon these points last year was the declaration that those were conditions not solely of English, but of European interest. Now, Sir, it appears to me that what the House has a right to know before the Government commits us to a course which may possibly—although I hope not—lead us to go to war, is what are the relations of the Government with the other Powers 466 of Europe, in regard especially to those points upon which our conditional neutrality depends. The House has a right to be told whether the action which the Government proposes to take is taken with the knowledge of and with the assent of the other Powers; and if it is not so taken, the House has a right, in my opinion, to know how it has come to pass that those conditions which last year were asserted to be not questions of English interest only, but of European interest, have come to be entrusted solely to British guardianship. Sir, the necessity for the production of Papers which will throw some light upon those points is, of course, greatly increased if there is any truth in the rumours to which I have before alluded. I could conceive circumstances under which the Government might come down to the House and make an appeal to Parliament, and state that communications had passed between themselves and the other Powers of Europe, but which it was not in their power at present to submit to Parliament: and they might say that they trusted that Parliament, if it had any confidence in the Government at all, would believe that they would not make such an appeal as they were about to make without sufficient necessity and without the communications being of such a character that it would not be for the benefit of the country that they should be divulged. But the case would be very greatly altered if there is any foundation for those rumours which I have referred to. In that case, it would appear that some of their own Members —men not ignorant, as we are, of what is going on, but possessing the same knowledge as the Government themselves—consider that the action contemplated by the Government was not necessary. It is incumbent, therefore, I think, upon the Government to lay upon the Table of the House without delay such information as would enable the House to judge what is the condition of their relations with foreign Powers, and whether the action which they propose now to take is to be an isolated action, and if it is to be an isolated action, what are the grounds which have made isolated action on our part necessary. It has been pointed out to me that the Supplementary Estimate has not yet been laid upon the Table. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be 467 able to state when it will be in the possession of hon. Members.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERMr. Speaker, the noble Lord was good enough to make a communication to me this afternoon of his intention to put Questions of the character he has now addressed to me, and I will endeavour, so far as I can, to answer those Questions; but the noble Lord and the House must bear in mind that upon some of those points it is difficult, or indeed impossible, for me to speak fully and to answer every Question that has been put to me, because many of the points that have been raised by the noble Lord relate to matters of which we are not at liberty to speak fully without the assent of other Governments. Now, with regard to the first Question —or group of Questions, if I may so describe it—put by the noble Lord, I think they wore these—He wished to know, whether the terms submitted by Russia, or offered by the Turkish Plenipotentiaries, have arrived in this country, and have been made known to Her Majesty's Government? He further goes on—assuming the Answer to the Question in a manner which I am rather surprised at—he goes on to ask at what time those conditions arrived yesterday, and whether the Government were aware of them, and were aware that they were under the consideration of the Turkish Plenipotentiaries at the time when I gave the Notice I did?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONThat is not quite correct. I asked whether terms of peace were not at that time under the consideration of the Turkish Government.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI beg pardon. I understood your Question to be, whether Her Majesty's Government were aware that those terms were under the consideration of the Porte at the time that I made the announcement in this House of the Government's intention to propose a Vote?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONThe right hon. Gentleman is not quite accurate. What I asked him was whether the Government were aware that terms of peace were under the consideration of the Porte at the time he made his statement.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI beg the noble Lord's pardon, 468 but of course I do not pretend to quote the language in which the noble Lord's Questions were couched, as he has not given me in handwriting the terms of them. However, I think with regard to one or two of these Questions I hardly ought to have been asked them. With regard to the circumstances under which I spoke, I think the House would hardly suppose that I should have been guilty, or that Her Majesty's Government would have been guilty of such a suppression, and even more than a suppression, of the truth as would have been involved in coming forward and giving the Notice which we did give, and explaining it as I subsequently did explain it, and yet making no allusion to such a remarkable fact, as that we were well aware that terms of peace had been communicated by the Russian Government to the Porte and were under consideration by the Porte. Sir, the Government had no knowledge that anything of the kind had occurred. And now with reference to the Questions the noble Lord put, I am really unable even now to answer positively the Question whether the terms of peace have arrived and are known to the Government. Certainly last night nothing of that sort had occurred. Last night, up to the time the House had met, we had not had communicated to us the terms, and we were not in a condition to say what were the terms, or even whether terms had been communicated to Turkey. Nay, further, we are not even now in the position of saying that those terms have been communicated to us. The Russian Ambassador, I believe, had previous to the time when I came down to the House been in communication with my noble Friend Lord Derby, and we were aware that no communication of the terms had been made. Well, in the course of yesterday evening certain communications of a private, and not of an authentic or formal character, were made to us on the subject of those terms. We received them by communications from abroad, and those communications certainly led to the impression that matters had gone further than we had been informed of before. But those communications, as I have said, were not of an authentic character; and they have been supplemented by others which show that they were not altogether quite accurate, and that they were not at that time fully or tho- 469 roughly known. This morning my noble noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Derby) has received a communication from the Russian Ambassador, and the heads of certain bases have been communicated to Lord Derby; but whether we are in a position to make any communication with regard to them I am not able at this moment to say. They wore privately given, and it rests, therefore, with the Russian Ambassador to say whether we are to make any use of his communication. With respect to the next Question of the noble Lord—namely, whether we are aware that an armistice has been actually concluded, or preliminaries of peace agreed to by the Porte, I have to say that we are not aware of anything of the sort. That is the situation of affairs, so far as I am 'able to state them. The next Question put by the noble Lord was, whether any instructions have been given by Her Majesty's Government for steps to be taken which have not yet been communicated to Parliament. Well, I suppose I can divine to what particular kind of instructions the noble Lord refers. I presume it is to the movement of the Fleet—[The Marquess of HARTINGTON: Hear, hoar!]—which has been, I perceive, a matter of general comment. The case is this—On Wednesday evening we decided that orders should be sent to the Fleet to proceed to the Dardanelles to keep open the water-way and to protect British life and property in the event of tumults at Constantinople. But, Sir, in consequence of the communications to which I have referred— those private communications which we received late last night, a further telegram was despatched to the Fleet, ordering the Fleet, if they were at the mouth of the Dardanelles, where they had been directed to call for orders, to wait until they received further instructions. That is the position of affairs at the present moment. The noble Lord has put a Question to me with regard to other rumours which are afloat and as to the position of Members of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Lord has experience in those matters, and he will bear me out in saying, or will not be surprised at my saying, that I am not authorized to make any communication on that subject. With respect to the Question of the noble Lord as to the production of Papers, I said last night 470 that we would see whether there were any more Papers which could properly be presented. But the noble Lord now supplements that Question by indicating the kind of Papers which he thinks the House ought to be supplied with. With regard to those Papers, I may say that we have, of course, had many communications with foreign Powers of a confidential character, and it would be impossible, without the consent of other Powers, to publish Papers of that description. The noble Lord and the hon. Gentlemen who sit near him must be perfectly well aware how difficult it is to carry on diplomatic correspondence if you are liable at all times to be called upon to produce everything. So far as Her Majesty's Government, however, are concerned, there is not a line that they have written which they would have the slightest objection to produce. But the matter is not in our hands alone, and it would not be right to present anything without communicating with foreign Powers. The noble Lord asked one other Question—namely, as to the Supplementary Estimate. The actual details of the Estimate are at the present moment being drawn up by those who are conversant with the Departments concerned; but I may state to the House generally that the Estimate itself will be laid on the Table this evening, together with particulars, and it may be convenient that I should say at once that the amount which will be asked for is £6,000,000.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONPerhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to put another Question which arises out of his statement. I understood him to say that orders had been given to the Fleet—which have now been, at all events, suspended—to enter the Dardanelles. I am under the impression that under the Treaty that step would be an infraction of the Treaty, unless it were taken with the consent of the Porte; and I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether he is able to state that the consent of the Porte was obtained before that order was given? Perhaps I might be allowed to say one word in explanation. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that I conveyed some imputation upon him for want of candour in keeping back information when he made his announcement yesterday. I can assure the right 471 hon. Gentleman and the House that I had no such intention. A statement, however, has been published in all the Papers to-day, apparently on good authority, that yesterday afternoon the terms of peace, having been remitted by the Turkish Plenipotentiaries to Constantinople, were under the consideration of the Porte. I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman to deny now the accuracy of that statement; and if it was the fact, surely it was not unnatural to suppose that the right hon. Gentleman might yesterday afternoon have been informed of it through our Ambassador at Constantinople? Neither did I suppose that he would be chargeable with keeping back anything which it was essential for the House to know when he did not make that communication yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman, as I understand, is aware now that terms are or have been under the consideration of the Porte; but I do not understand him to have said it makes any difference in the line of policy which Her Majesty's Government have announced their intention to take on Monday next.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERAs to the last observation of the noble Lord, it has certainly made no difference in the line of policy which Her Majesty's Government feel it their duty to take in proposing the Supplementary Vote, but it did make a difference in regard to moving the Fleet. But I think it better to refrain from saying more on that point until I have an opportunity on Monday of explaining the reasons which induced Her Majesty's Government to give their Notice for Monday next. With reference to the point which the noble Lord praised as to the bearing of Treaty obligations on the admission of the Fleet to the Dardanelles, of course it is one which has not escaped the observation of Her Majesty's Government. But I think it will be more convenient if I abstain at present from answering the Question that he put until I have an opportunity of making my statement on Monday. I would repeat again that I had not the information referred to at the time I made the statement yesterday, and that I should myself have considered it a want of candour, especially as the Question was asked, if I had refrained from mentioning it.
§ MR. CHILDERSPerhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to put a Question to him in order to elucidate his previous Answer. The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday that he was about to place on the Table a Supplementary Estimate, and he has now stated that it would amount to £6,000,000. Now, a Supplementary Estimate must be an Estimate which is supplementary to some other Estimate; and what I have to ask is, whether this is an Estimate for the current year, 1877–8, or is to be supplementary to Estimates for next year which are not yet before us? On inquiry of the Clerk at the Table I find that there are no Estimates either for this or for the next year on the Table. Is the Estimate which is about to be presented one for the current year?
THE CHANCELLOR OE THE EXCHEQUERIt is a Supplementary Estimate in the proper sense for the Naval and Military Services of the year 1877–8— that is to say, it is not additional to anything which has not been presented, but an addition to the Votes which were passed in the last Session of Parliament in the Appropriation Act for the Naval and Military Services of the country. A further sum is required for those Services, and the details will be mentioned in the Estimates.
§ MR. CHILDERSI must apologize to the House, but my only object is to clear up the matter. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean, in one word, that before the 31st of March next the Government propose to spend £6,000,000?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIt is not a question of whether it will require to be spent or not. It is a question of what the Government ask to have placed at their disposal for the purposes of the Naval and Military expenses of the country. This will be the heading—" For a sum required beyond the ordinary grants by Parliament towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred in immediately increasing the Naval and Military Services in the present crisis of the war between Russia and Turkey, including the cost of a further addition to the number of Land Forces during the year ending the 31st March, 1878." I think we had better defer the further discussion of the matter.