HC Deb 15 February 1878 vol 237 cc1723-9
MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

moved— That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee on the Manchester Corporation Water Bill, that they hare power to inquire into and report upon the present sufficiency of the water supply of Manchester and its neighbourhood, and of any other sources available for such supply: To consider whether permission should be given to make use of any of the Westmoreland and Cumberland Lakes for the purpose; and, if so, how far, and under what conditions: To consider the prospective requirements of the populations situated between the Lake District and Manchester: To inquire and report whether any, and if so, what, provisions should be made in limitation of proposals for the exclusive use of the water of any of the said lakes.

MR. WHITWELL

I understand that the Instruction moved by the right hon. Gentleman is generally satisfactory to all persons interested in this question; but there seems to be some doubt as to the meaning of the expression—"to consider the prospective requirements of the populations situated between the Lake District and Manchester;" and some people are of opinion that those words would limit the inquiry to the line taken in the scheme put forward by the Corporation of Manchester. If the words are to be construed in that sense, then the scope of the usefulness of the Committee might be curtailed. I would, therefore, propose as an Amendment, that instead of the words "between the Lake District and Manchester," the words "in Lancashire and Yorkshire" should be substituted. The water on the Lake District is quite sufficient to supply both Lancashire and Yorkshire.

MR. JACOB BRIGHT

I hope that the House will not consent to give such enlarged powers to the Select Committee upon the Manchester Water Scheme. If the Committee had such powers, it would be almost impossible for them to conclude their labours this Session; and I therefore hope the Government will not give way without having some better reason than that which has been advanced by the hon. Member for Kendal.

MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. Member propose to move an Amendment?

MR. WHITWELL

I propose to leave out the words "between the Lake District and Manchester," in order to insert the words "Lancashire and Yorkshire."

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "between the Lake District and Manchester," in order to insert the words "in Lancashire and Yorkshire,"— (Mr. Whitwell,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to Be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

As the Instruction now stands, it does not include an inquiry into the water supply of such an important town as Liverpool. That town is not in the line between Manchester and the Lake District; and I think there ought to be something in the Instruction to the Committee as to the prospective requirements of all the populations Of Lancashire. I need scarcely remind the House that there are many large towns in South Lancashire which are deeply interested in the question of water supply.

MR. HARDCASTLE

I would venture to point out that the case of Liverpool hardly comes into the question, because there are plenty of other Lakes from which Liverpool could obtain a supply of water. As regards the proposition of the hon. Member for Kendal for extending the inquiry, I do not see why the scheme of the Corporation of Manchester should be made the means of initiating an inquiry into the requirements of the whole of Lancashire and Yorkshire. I hope the House will reject the Amendment of the hon. Member, for it really appears to me to be beside the question under discussion.

MR. RAIKES

I regret that the hon. Member for Kendal should have brought forward this Amendment; and I think I can point out to him that the words of the Instruction, as they stand, are better than the Amendment proposed by him. One of the hon. Members who spoke in the debate the other day called attention to the concluding recommendation in the Report of the Royal Commission on the Water Supply— First, that before any great water scheme was considered, the House should have an opportunity of ascertaining the wants of the immediate locality of the Lakes which it might be proposed to have recourse to; secondly, the wants of the intermediate population; and thirdly, the wants of the locality which proposed to take the water. The Instruction which my right hon. Friend proposes to give to the Select Committee is really based upon that recommendation of the Royal Commission; and there is, I think, a line to be drawn between that which properly belongs to, and may be fairly considered, in connection with, any scheme, and that which does not belong to it. Now, I think it would be rather hard upon the people of Manchester if their Private Bill were to be made the means of raising a very large question; and one which, in many respects, would be wholly unconnected with Manchester. You are asked in the Amendment to deal with the whole of Yorkshire. Now, I have no doubt that the Lake District is adequate to supply the whole of Yorkshire with water; but it is very unlikely that the whole of Yorkshire would ever go to the Lakes for a supply, as they have quite sufficient for their own purposes much nearer —namely, in the gathering grounds on the Yorkshire Hills. Therefore, the addition of the words proposed in the Amendment would only tend to prolong the inquiry unnecessarily; and it would be unfair to the people of Manchester that their Bill should be made the means of promoting a general inquiry into the wants, as regards water supply, of the whole of this very extensive district. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) talked about Liverpool; but I think the circumstances of that town are rather an argument against the course which is recommended in the Amendment, because if you are going, in an inquiry into the merits of the Manchester Bill, to open an inquiry into the supply of Liverpool, you would, I think, be treating Manchester in an exceptionally unfair manner. Surely, if you are to say that every large town that is 40 or 50 miles away is to have its water supply considered before you will consent to adjudicate upon this Bill, you would be treating Manchester both exceptionally and unfairly. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board will adhere to the existing words of his Instruction. Personally, I have no objection to the words of the Amendment per se, but I think that the original words are better. I think the matter is a very interesting one, and one that requires the attention of Parliament; but I also think that this is not the fairest and best occasion for conducting such an extended inquiry.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

I, like my hon. Friend, would have no personal objection to the substitution of the words moved by the hon. Member for Kendal. But I may remind the House that this Instruction has been on the Paper now for some days, and has met with no other objection from any part of the House, or from anyone interested in the question. That being so, I should be very sorry to make a change at the last moment, especially as no Notice has been given. I also think it would be objectionable, even if the language proposed by the hon. Member for Kendal did not enlarge the inquiry; because it is too specific in the way of a direction. If the Committee saw "Lancashire and Yorkshire" in the Instruction given to them, they would probably feel it incumbent upon them to go into an exhaustive inquiry as to the wants of the whole of those large counties; whereas "between Manchester and the Lake District" would place them upon the exact line of inquiry affected by the present Bill. I think, therefore, that my hon. Friend the Member for Kendal would do well not to press his Amendment; and, I take it that, after this discussion the Committee would feel themselves perfectly justified in enlarging the scope of their inquiry if they found such a course necessary.

MR. WHITWELL

After what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I beg to withdraw my Amendment.

MR. SERJEANT SPINKS

I wish to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the circumstance, whether the words of the Instruction, as now drawn, are large enough to include towns a little distance off Manchester, although "in the neighbourhood of Manchester." The words which have just been adverted to by the right hon. Gentleman—"in a line between the Lake District and Manchester"—certainly do not include them; and I doubt whether the words in the earlier part of the Instruction— to inquire into and report upon the present sufficiency of the water supply of Manchester and its neighbourhood"— would be sufficient to include the borough which I have the honour to represent, and which is seven or eight miles from Manchester. I should like, if the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to accept the Amendment, to substitute for "Manchester and its neighbourhood" the words "Manchester and the towns in its neighbourhood." That would be quite satisfactory to me. I am very much afraid, when we come before the Committee, we should find that the inquiry governed by the words as they now stand in the Instruction would be limited to places within a mile or two of Manchester, and that an inquiry into the wants of a town eight or 10 miles from Manchester would not be entertained.

MR. SPEAKER

Before that Amendment can be put, it would be necessary that the former Amendment should be formally withdrawn by leave of the House.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. SPEAKER

Does the hon. and and learned Member for Oldham move his Amendment?

MR. SERJEANT SPINKS

I would propose as an Amendment, after the word "and" in the fourth line, to insert the words "the towns in the neighbourhood."

Amendment proposed, after the words "Manchester and" to insert the words "the towns in."—(Mr. Serjeant Spinks.)

Question proposed, "that those words be there inserted."

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

I beg to remind the House that my hon. Friend the Member for Kendal (Mr. Whitwell) did raise the objection on the first night of the discussion which he has raised again to-night. I am very sorry that my hon. Friend did not adhere to the suggestion which he then made— namely, that it should be an Instruction to the Committee to inquire by what means the rain-water which annually falls in such masses on the hills of that part of England could be best collected, and the best storage works constructed, so as to enable any quantity of water to be taken from the Lakes that may be required for the many localities so much in need of good water. That is the whole question at issue. The doubt was whether the one Lake already formed—namely, that of Thirlmere— would be partly exhausted by abstract- ing the water for the requirements of Manchester. If that were found to be so, then it would be important to have an enlarged inquiry as to how the gorges of adjoining hills could be dammed up so as to multiply the water reservoirs. I have, unfortunately, been under the necessity of dealing with this kind of question in India. There we have tanks or reservoirs many times larger than any of the Lakes in question, and the great necessity for providing additional storage for water has been shown by the late water drought in Madras. Now, I think these Lakes could be so improved and so added to, in the direction the hon. Member for Kendal has pointed out, so as to enable them to increase their storage power to a very considerable extent, without in any degree destroying their pleasant appearance. Therefore, I think the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board should take that matter into consideration. I believe that with a very small outlay in the construction of adequate embankments, not only would the Lakes themselves be improved, but the general scenery also. We are told that the rainfall in this particular district is excessive and larger than in any other part of the Kingdom. The extent of the gathering ground is also so vast that it is quite certain that a very large amount of the rain that now falls must run away in other directions than into the Lakes. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will take all these matters into consideration, and will not, for the sake of Manchester, limit the inquiry in such a manner as to prevent the Committee from reporting in what way it may be possible to enlarge the storage capacity of the existing lakes or provide additional reservoirs in suitable localities.

MR. RAIKES

I will not follow the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member, because I think they have more reference to the debate which occurred the other day. But in regard to the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Oldham (Mr. Serjeant Spinks), I think he can hardly have studied carefully the words of the Instruction. If he had done so, I think he would have found that "the line" to which he has referred does not exist in the Instruction. There is nothing said as to the population situated upon any line, but there is merely a reference to the population situated between Manchester and the Late District. It is clear, therefore, that the Committee would have a wide discretion in considering what that population is, and the inquiry would certainly include any town such as Oldham, which he represents. As far as my view of the Instruction goes, that would be quite within the limits of the inquiry proposed to be allotted to the Committee, and I hope that he will see that it will not be necessary to insert the words he proposes. To say "Manchester and its neighbourhood" is exactly the same as saying "Manchester and the towns in its neighbourhood."

MR. SERJEANT SPINKS

After that explanation, coming from such an authority as the Chairman of Committees, I am quite willing to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.

Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee.

And, on February 18, Ordered, That Dr. LYON PLAYFAIR, Mr. SALT, Mr. RODWELL, Sir UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLEWORTH, and Mr. KNOWLES be Members of the Select Committee on the Manchester Corporation Water Bill.— (Mr. Sclater-Booth.)

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