HC Deb 05 February 1878 vol 237 cc1038-46

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now road a second time."

MR. RAIKES

I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the second reading of this Bill, or with any wish to delay its progress; but as it is the first Bill of the Session which has reached the stage of a second reading, by which provision is proposed to be made for the construction of tramways to be worked by steam or mechanical power, I think this is a good opportunity to indicate to the House the course which, after consultation with the authorities chiefly interested in the matter, I would venture to recommend in regard to these Bills. The House will remember that in the course of last Session several Tramway Bills were introduced, and some Provisional Orders were applied for, authorizing the use of steam or mechanical power upon tramways. The whole of those Bills wore suspended until the question of the use of steam or mechanical power on tramways could be investigated by a Select Committee. The Select Committee sat for some time, and was presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Salt), who took a great deal of interest in the subject. It had also the assistance of several hon. Members who were thoroughly conversant with the use of steam in such cases, and the Committee after hearing evidence "presented a Report. That Report has not yet been considered by the House; but I may say that it was generally in favour of licensing the use of steam or mechanical power on tramways, but under certain safeguards to be supplemented by a very full and complete authority to be given to the Board of Trade to govern and control the use of these locomotives. It was too late I think in the Session when the Report of the Select Committee was presented for the Bill which the Board of Trade brought in to license experiments to be carried through; and those clauses in the Tramway Bills by which steam power was sought not being able to arrive at maturity in the course of that Session, were therefore dropped. We have this year again a considerable number of Tramway Bills before the House, and I believe there are also a great number of applications to the Board of Trade for Provisional Orders in the same direction, and it is for the House to consider what is the wisest course to take in regard to them. The course which I shall venture to ask the House to adopt will be in order to preserve something like uniformity of procedure. I would suggest that all these Bills should be referred to the same Committee, and that it should be a hybrid Committee, appointed partly by the House, and partly by the Committee of Selection. I would further suggest that the House should give them power to hear evidence which in many cases might be excluded by the ordinary rules of the House from the consideration of Private Bill Committees. The form of the Resolution which I propose to move is based upon a precedent, as a similar course was taken some years ago, and the words of the Resolution are so drawn as to secure that opponents might be heard before the Committee, who would otherwise be shut out under the rules which fix the locus standi of petitioners against a Bill. It is of great importance that I should attempt for a moment to point out three questions, to which I hope the attention of the Committee, if the House consents to appoint it, will be directed. I assume that as far as we have hitherto gone in our legislation, we have not had expressly under the consideration of this House the possible use of steam upon street tramways, and if the use of steam is to be allowed hereafter, it will be necessary probably for the Board of Trade to consider the subject, and state what regulations it may be desirable to enforce. There is one point which I think will at once occur to any hon. Member who is at all conversant with the mode in which the Private Business of the House is conducted. Under the Rules which have already been laid down in the case of ordinary tramways to be worked by animal power, the railway companies have been precluded from being heard in opposition on any ground of possible competition. I think that upon the whole this Rule has worked very fairly. But I think the House will see that the case will be very different if you are to have a tramway, which may be worked by steam running alongside a railway. I may point to a particular case, which I am told actually exists in South Wales, where the Great Western line runs for four miles alongside the high road, upon which high road there are at the present time tramways. Unquestionably, if Parliament is to license the use of steam on these tramways, you will have two parallel lines, almost on the same principle, running for a length of four miles, only that the tramway company will have had nothing to pay for acquiring the use of the ground. It seems to me, that under such circumstances it would be a matter deeply to be regretted if the railway company were not entitled to be heard as opponents of such a scheme. Then there is another matter which is of much importance, and which relates to the use of steam, or to the roads on which the use of steam is to be allowed. The use of steam or mechanical power, as far as we can judge from the evidence given before the Select Committee last year, has only up to the present time been tested abroad on very wide roads, and in many cases on roads very much less frequented than the streets of even our country towns. I think it would be very desirable that the Committee should consider whether it is not, in the first instance, at all events, imperative to fix a decided limit as to the width of the road on which steam power is to be used. Then there is another question, also, which is of great public interest. It relates to the contribution which is to be made by tramway companies towards the support and maintenance of the road on which steam power is to be allowed. At the present time, I believe, they pay for the maintenance and repair of that portion of the road which is covered by the rails and also of that portion which is between the rails; but I think it is a great and serious question if you agree to put upon the roads a now description of carriage which is perhaps to compete with the local railways, whether the persons who obtain such a privilege should not be required to pay for the whole of the maintenance and repair of the roads over which the steam carriages are to run; and whether they should not pay something in the shape of rent for the use of the roads. I hope I have now said enough on these three points to show the importance, in a public point of view, of carefully considering the whole of the subject; and I trust the House will agree with me that the case is one which requires to be dealt with by a Committee of exceptional strength. I have no wish, at the present moment, to offer any objection to the progress of the Bill; but after it has been read a second time, I shall move the Resolution which I have placed upon the Paper for consideration to-day. I may, however, say, before I sit down, that I believe the Board of Trade intends to deal with the cases where applications have been made for the use of steam power on tramways under Provisional Orders, in a manner as closely analagous as they can to that which is adopted by this House in regard to the Private Bills. I believe that the Board of Trade, before dealing with the applications made to them for Provisional Orders, propose to await the decision of the Committee appointed by this House, and there will be every desire on the part of the Government to assimilate their course of procedure to that which shall be laid down by this House. Perhaps these observations rather belong to the Resolution of which I have given Notice, but I have thought that it would be more convenient to the House that they should know what they were doing before they consented to read any of these Steam Tramway Bills a second time. This being the first Bill that has come before the House this Session, I have felt it my duty to make these observations.

MR. PEASE

I think the House must have listened to the statement of my hon. Friend the Chairman of Committees with considerable interest. If my attention had been called to this particular Bill, I should certainly have placed upon the Paper a Notice against the second reading of it. The question of the introduction of steam power on tramways at all is to me a very grave question indeed, and although it has no doubt been investigated by a Select Committee of this House, it is one which seems to me to involve a considerable amount of principle. Whether we will sanction broadly the principle that locomotive engines are to run on the highways of the country is a principle which deserves, at any rate, a discussion in this House. The view which I entertain upon the question of these tramways is that we have already gone to the furthest possible extent. While it is a question, certainly, of public interest as to how the public can be best served in regard to the use of the streets, there can be no doubt that in many of the narrow streets of our large towns and especially of this metropolis these tramways do interefere very prejudicially with the ordinary traffic. Not only do they interfere with and become a bar to the ordinary traffic, but they are also the cause of extreme danger. I believe that the number of the public who have already been killed or injured by them has been very considerable. I have been at some pains to collect from time to time statistics upon this matter and they certainly afford a strong additional reason why the House should pause before it grants the use of steam power in the public streets of very crowded neighbourhoods. My hon. Friend the Chairman of Committee of Ways and Means has properly stated that in his judgment the question where they are to run, if they are to run at all, would be very much guided by the width of the street or the width of the road along which it was proposed to take them. There can be no doubt that that will be a very important consideration; but my main object in rising was to call the attention of the House to another question—namely, how far we can, having due regard to the public safety, permit these steam engines to make use of the ordinary roads. We must hear in mind, in estimating the probable damage that may be done, that persons in charge of mechanical appliances are very often impatient of control, and I very much fear that if we place the control of the traffic of the streets at the mercy of men in charge of locomotive engines of considerable power, the public will ultimately suffer. These men will not consent to give way, but reckless of consequences will hold the road, to the great detriment of every other description of traffic. The question is one well worth the consideration of the House. It involves very important matters of public convenience, and I thank my hon. Friend the Chairman of Committees for having called the attention of the House to the subject at so early a period of the Session.

MR. E. JENKINS

I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the Motion for the second reading of this Bill, although I certainly think that some of the grounds which have been advanced by the Chairman of Committees are not grounds on which this House would be disposed to assent to his Resolution. I rise rather for the purpose of putting a Question to the hon. Gentleman, and it is this—I understood him to say that the object to be gained by appointing this Special Committee was, that in cases in which tramways intended to compete with railway companies, the railway companies should have provided for them an easy mode—or rather that there should be provided a method of enabling them to come in and oppose a Tramway Bill which, as I understood, under the present Rules and Orders of the House, they are now unable to do. I have only to say that I shall protest very strongly against any proposal to give any facilities whatever to the railway companies to come in and oppose these Tramway Bills. The mere fact that steam is proposed to be used for tramways instead of horses, simply for the purpose of saving the horses and not for the purpose of adding anything to the speed at which the cars are driven upon the tramways, does not appear to me to be a sufficient reason for allowing a powerful railway company to come in and oppose these Tramway Bills. I hope, therefore, that as far as this par- ticular point is concerned, there will be some means provided by the House of preventing any additional facilities being given to the railway companies to oppose Bills which propose to authorize the use upon tramways of small donkey-engines, simply because such tramway lines happen to run for some distance parallel with a line of railway. Before I sit down, I wish to point out—I think I may mention it now, but if I am out of Order, I will reserve what I say until the Motion of the Chairman of Committees comes regularly before the House—I wish to point out that one Bill which has been read a second time this afternoon—the Dundee Street Tramways Bill—is a Bill which contains matters such as those which have been referred to by the hon. Gentleman; and it proposes, I believe, among other things, to sanction the use of steam or mechanical power upon certain turnpike roads. The Chairman of Committees will see that difficulties may arise in regard to that Bill, seeing that it deals with other matters besides tramways.

MR. CHARLES LEWIS

I do not think that the objections which are now so frequently taken in reference to tramways arise, as many persons say they do, from an instinctive antipathy to new modes of travelling. But I do think that the question of the extent to which tramways are to be allowed to take up the ordinary public traffic along the high roads is a question of the greatest importance to all our towns. Many hon. Members in this House will understand, as I do myself, what the tramway system is in New York. You have only to go into some of the narrowest streets of New York and you will find the whole of the traffic given up to the tramway system. I do not in the least degree deny that under proper regulations and proper conditions the tramway system is at the same time a wonderfully good investment and very advantageous to the interests of the public. But we must not be prepared to surrender the whole of our rights in this matter. Those who live in London certainly know this, that their coach builders' bills are very different now from what they used to be, or what they ought to be. Since the inauguration of the present tramway system horses have been lamed, human life sacrificed, limbs broken, and. property destroyed, and all because it is said to be necessary to extend facilities for public travel. Now, I like cheap travelling as much as my neighbours, and I like to be able to get from one part of London to another as quickly and as cheaply as possible; but I protest against the unthinking way in which so many Boards in the metropolis have dealt with this question of tramways, as if life and limb and property were nothing in comparison with better facilities for travelling and communication.

MR. SULLIVAN

I must respectfully ask the Chairman of Committees not to allow any Committee to be appointed by this House which is likely to put itself in antagonism with the tramway system. We are only, I think, at the beginning of reaping the benefits of a system between steam railways and nothing at all. The tramways are the middle course between the rapid speed of the large railways and the slow coaches with which we have put up so long. I never knew a man who was able to keep a brougham who was not against tramways, and I never knew people who could not afford to keep a brougham who were not in favour of tramways, and the question is now being fought very much between the brougham party and the no-brougham party. No doubt there are narrow streets in London, and proper care should be taken that the ordinary traffic in such streets should not be interfered with. But I assert that we are only at present at the commencement of a great and useful movement which, with proper precautions, will be of immense advantage to the public. I therefore hope that no antagonism will be invited by giving undue facilities to opposition.

MR. DILLWYN

I do not wish to say anything against the second reading of this Bill, but I must say that, on behalf of the public, I receive with pleasure the proposal which the Chairman of Committees is about to make. I am acquainted with a case in which there is a tramway running alongside of the high read. The company have, I believe, under the powers of their Act, power to use a locomotive, and they have given an assurance that there shall be no nuisance, no smoke, and no fire. But what is the practical result? Why, that some persons do not dare to drive along the road on which these locomotives are used. The locomotives make a very great noise, the lights are flaring out, and I know many persons, especially if they happen to be driving young horses, who would go miles out of their way rather than make use of this road. I am sincerely glad that the Chairman of Committees proposes to appoint this Committee, and I hope that when it is appointed the attention of the Committee will be specially directed to the powers which tramway companies are now seeking—of using locomotives along the high roads and streets. I believe that if this is to be generally allowed many roads will become almost impassable at night, and transit in some parts of large towns will be seriously impeded. I hope the Chairman of Committees will continue to give his best attention to the subject, and, so far as I am personally concerned, I will give him the best assistance in my power.

MR. M'LAREN

While I entirely approve of all that has been said by the Chairman of Committees, I wish to express a hope that his attention will be directed to one particular matter—namely, the different gradients of the streets in different towns, and that no general law will be laid down that locomotives may be used in all towns under certain circumstances. I think, further, that the use of locomotives on tramways should not be allowed where the authorities of the town in which it is proposed to use them are opposed to it. To whatever powers Parliament may be pleased to give, in my opinion, it should superadd this condition, that it should always be understood that the authorities were agreeable to the use of mechanical power.

MR. HERMON,

who was almost inaudible in the Gallery, was understood to refer to the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), and to say that it was not entirely a brougham question, but rather a shopkeeper's question, and that the laying down of tramways should not be sanctioned in narrow streets with a considerable amount of traffic, when the approach of carriages to the shops would thereby be interfered with.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.