HC Deb 09 August 1878 vol 242 cc1695-700

Order for Second Reading read.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

moved— "That the Second Reading be fixed for Twelve of the clock on Saturday."

LORD JOHN MANNERS

hoped that his right hon. Friend would not press the Motion, and that the House would now consent to give the Bill a second reading. The opposition was mainly directed to the 3rd clause, and referred to the definition of the term "telegraphs" contained in it; but, as he had given Notice of his intention to move its omission, he hoped that the second reading would now be passed. The Bill would then be nearly exclusively a measure in which were collected together the protective clauses formerly inserted in Private Bills on behalf of the Postal Telegraph Department; but which it was thought ought to be consolidated in a general measure. The noble Lord concluded by moving the second reading.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Lord John Manners.)

THE O'DONOGHUE

said, there seemed to exist some confusion on the Treasury Bench which he should like to see cleared up, if it were possible to do so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that the second reading of the Telegraphs Bill be fixed for to-morrow at 12. No sooner had he done so, than the noble Lord the Postmaster General proceeded to ask the House to read it a second time. Now, he (the O'Donoghue) desired to know which course the House should adopt.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

complained that a Bill of so much import- ance, affecting all the corporations in the country, should be brought forward at a time when the Session had virtually terminated. He objected to stipendiary magistrates being the persons to arbitrate between public Bodies and the Post Office; because, in some instances, these stipendiaries were the servants of the corporations, who were their paymasters; and in others they were under the direct influence of the Crown. The Bill, by its 9th and 10th clauses, gave enormous powers to the Postmaster General against every corporation in the country, enabling him to fine them heavily for anything that might be called obstruction or interference with respect to telegraphic communication, and he believed that the attention of those Bodies throughout the country had not been sufficiently directed to the provisions of the Bill, as otherwise there would be great opposition to the passing of the Bill at that period of the Session.

THE O'CONOR DON

thought it was time the question of his hon. Friend the Member for Tralee (the O'Donoghue) was answered. It would be in the recollection of the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the Exchequer Bonds Bill would be taken to-morrow. [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

The Question is, the second reading of the Telegraphs Bill, and the observations the hon. Member is now making do not seem to be relevant to that Question.

THE O'CONOR DON

I beg to move that this House do now adjourn, in order to put myself in Order. [Cries of "Oh!"]

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member will not put himself in Order by taking that course.

MR. SULLIVAN

I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."— (Mr. Sullivan.)

MR. SPEAKER

The Question is, that the debate be now adjourned.

THE O'CONOR DON

I think, at all events, I will be in Order in asking for an explanation of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer a little while ago, that the second reading of this Bill was to be taken to-morrow—

MR. SPEAKER

Any observations that the hon. Member may think proper to make relative to the subject-matter of the Telegraphs Bill will be in Order.

THE O'CONOR DON

The observations I was about making were with regard to the Telegraphs Bill. We were told that the Order for the Second Reading of this Bill was to be taken to-morrow, and immediately after the noble Lord the Postmaster General gets up and proposes to take it now. My hon. Friend the Member for Tralee (the O'Donoghue) very naturally asks for an explanation of these extraordinary discrepancies in the statements from the Government Bench; and I certainly think, considering the circumstances of the other Bill to which I will not further refer, that we are entitled to know what is the meaning of this extraordinary difference of opinion.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

The explanation is very simple. It is intended to take a Morning Sitting to-morrow, and it was proposed to take the Telegraphs Bill; but as the Bill has been reached, my noble Friend the Postmaster General thought it would save time if we took the second reading now. We propose to fix the next stage for to-morrow at 12 o'clock.

THE O'DONOGHUE

complained that there had been contradictory statements as to the Morning Sitting on Saturday. He intended to oppose the putting down of the Bill for that day.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

So you can.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HOPWOOD

entirely concurred in what had been said by his hon. Friend (Sir Charles W. Dilke). He opposed the Bill, as placing in the hands of the Telegraph Department an arbitrary control of public Bodies.

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON

said, the whole of the questions in connection with this Bill had been considered before a Select Committee in "another place." The matters at issue were so thoroughly thrashed out that it was hardly likely the corporations had not been made thoroughly acquainted with the way in which the Bill affected them. At the same time, he would admit that the point as to stipendiaries was a proper one for consideration in Committee. He hoped the House would allow the second reading to be taken now.

MR. BRISTOWE

said, he entirely objected to the reference to the railway companies provided for in the Bill, and also to the very vague language used in, and the stringent character of, the 10th clause.

MR. BIRLEY

was in favour of giving that power to the Post Office, and thought the public would have confidence in that body.

MR. W. M. TORRENS

said, this was a Bill to increase the central power, under pains and penalties, and although he had great confidence in the noble Lord at the head of the Post Office, he strongly objected to the multiplication of penalties which the Bill enacted, and which were so many traps and gins for the unwary. They were most objectionable.

THE O'DONOGHUE

wanted to know whether the Motion of the noble Lord the Postmaster General was an Amendment on that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was entitled, he thought, to ask that question.

DR. CAMERON

said, that as the 3rd clause was to be withdrawn, he had no objection to the rest of the Bill.

MR. J. COWEN

also explained that the 3rd clause of the Bill having been withdrawn by the noble Lord the Postmaster General, he should offer no further opposition to the measure.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

proposed that the House should go into Committee on the Bill to-morrow (Saturday).

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will, To-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill."—(Lord John Manners.)

MR. ONSLOW

Sir, I rise to a point of Order. I wish to ask, Whether, if this should be agreed to, and the Committee on the Bill be fixed for to-morrow, that would be tantamount to saying that the House agrees to a Morning Sitting to-morrow without a definite Motion being put that the House at its rising do meet to-morrow?

MR. SPEAKER

If the House decides to take the Committee to-morrow, the House will sit to-morrow.

MR. ONSLOW

Then, Sir, I have an Amendment to the Motion. I move that the Bill be considered on Tuesday. I hope I shall not be out of Order in the remarks I am about to make. Now, in the first place, what the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes is a most unusual course, as I believe you, Sir, said to-night. The House is asked to meet to-morrow, when the palpable reason for it is that a private Member's Bill should be considered—the Sunday Closing Bill. I shall not be saying anything wrong when I tell the House that the reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has moved that this Committee be taken to-morrow is in order to bring in a Bill which is not even on the Paper to-day. There is no doubt that many of us have had a long and arduous Session, and especially during the last few weeks, many of us have been working day and night. I would really appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is quite fair upon us to ask us to come down here on Saturday, which is almost the only holiday we have had for many a week past, to consider a Bill which will not be so violently opposed as that will be to which I refer. But we should not only consider ourselves. We should also have some consideration for you, Sir, who have had to remain in the Chair for many nights past and far into the morning. To ask us to sit to-morrow, under such circumstances, is, in my judgment, not fair when the only Business to be taken is that of a private Member. I would ask the House to consider whether there is really that urgency; whether the Bill is of such vital importance as to necessitate the creation of such a precedent?

MR. SULLIVAN

rose to Order. An hon. Member had already been called to Order on precisely the same point as the House was now invited to discuss.

MR. ONSLOW

considered that he was alluding to matters material to the Question. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that the consideration of the Exchequer Bills and Bonds Bill would be taken to-morrow (Saturday). Then, when the Telegraphs Bill was called on, the right hon. Gentleman said it was to be taken to-morrow. He hoped he was saying nothing improper when he added that, in his opinion, the right hon. Gentleman hardly knew his own mind about the Sunday Closing Bill. As regarded facilities for the passage of this Bill during the present Session, he thought no one who had watched its course would hesitate to admit that no private Member had ever before received such facilities for the passing of any measure. [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

said, that so long as the hon. Member was referring to the Business before the House at that time he was in Order; but he was now referring to a Bill not before the House. It was the Telegraphs Bill that was really before the House.

MR. E. JENKINS

remarked that the Question before the House was that the Telegraphs Bill be considered tomorrow; but they had reached tomorrow. The hon. Member had talked the Motion out.

MR. ONSLOW

bowed to the ruling of the Speaker, and begged to move as an Amendment, that the Committee upon the Telegraphs Bill be fixed for Tuesday.

MR. STACPOOLE

seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "this day," in order to insert the words "upon Tuesday next,"—(Mr. Onslow,)—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words 'this day' stand part of the Question."

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

had no objection to a Morning Sitting; but he would vote with the hon. Member (Mr. Onslow), because there would not be time for hon. Members to put down Amendments on the Bill, if it were taken to-morrow.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 87; Noes 30: Majority 57.—(Div. List, No. 264.)

Main Question put.

Resolved, That this House will, this day, resolve itself into the said Committee.