HC Deb 09 August 1878 vol 242 cc1715-20

(The O'Conor Don, Mr. Richard Smyth, Mr. Charles Lewis, Mr. James Corry, Mr. William Johnston, Mr. Dease, Mr. Dickson, Mr. Redmond.)

[BILL 215.] THIRD READING.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

moved that the House do not meet on Saturday to read the Bill a third time.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, the Notice of this Motion was only given the previous night, and therefore he objected to it.

MR. SPEAKER

This Notice of Motion having been only given yesterday for this day, and an objection being raised, the hon. Member cannot proceed with it consistently with the Resolution relating to opposed Business.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

said, there was no Amendment to his Motion on the Paper.

MR. SPEAKER

said, the Resolution in reference to opposed Business provided that no Notice of Motion given one day should be taken on the next, if objection be taken to it; and objection had been taken in this case.

THE O'CONOR DON

moved, that the Order for the Third Reading of the Bill be taken that day.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be read the third time this day."—(The O'Conor Don.)

MR. O'SULLIVAN

opposed the Motion, on the ground that Notice had not been given.

MR. SPEAKER

said, this was a dropped Order, and, according to the practice of the House, the hon. Member having charge of it could move to fix a day for its third reading without Notice.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

thought it a very unreasonable thing that the House should be asked to sit on Saturday, to entertain a Bill to which there was very strong opposition in Ireland. He would admit that the supporters of the Bill included a large number of the wealthy classes.

MR. MONK

rose to Order. Was the hon. Member in Order in discussing the merits of the Bill on the Motion that it be put down for that day?

MR. SPEAKER

The Motion before the House relates to the time at which this Bill is to be taken, and any observations on that Motion should be limited to the question of time. It would be quite irregular now to enter into the merits of the Bill.

MR. O'SULLIVAN

said, the Bill having been so strongly opposed both in that House and in Ireland, he thought it was unfair that the House should meet that day to discuss the Bill. The measure of his hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk), which was not even opposed, had been post- poned by the House until Thursday, and yet this Sunday Closing Bill, which had been opposed at every stage, was to come on. The House had sat late during the whole week—they would not rise that morning until between 3 and 4, and were hon. Members to be brought there again at 12 o'clock, to pass a Bill which had been so strongly opposed? It was most inconsistent after the decision of the House as to the other Bills, that that one should come on and be taken before any Government Business. He believed up to the present time there had been no precedent for taking a private Member's Bill on a Saturday; but this would create a very bad one. Considering the time the House and its officers had sat, he thought it unfair to take a Bill on Saturday, which he should oppose in every way he could.

THE O'DONOGHUE

did not think it was treating the opponents of the Bill fairly to take it that day. Of course, they could not discuss the merits of the measure; but he quite agreed with what had fallen from his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Sullivan) that the people of Ireland were opposed to it, and that they had never yet expressed an opinion upon it. The opponents of the Bill availed themselves of all the recognized means for opposing the Bill, and yet the Government, in what they had done, had gone out of their way, and taken a most exceptional course to suit the desires of his hon. Friend who had charge of the Bill (the O'Conor Don).

MR. STACPOOLE

said, in consenting to the Bill being taken on Saturday, the Government were going against the interests of those who had put them in office, because it was well known that the publicans secured for them their majority in the House.

DR. O'LEARY

wished to know, why the Government should take the very exceptional course of giving a Saturday Sitting to a private Member? No doubt, he heard on the previous night from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a sort of promise had been given at an early period of the Session to facilitate the passing of this Sunday Closing Bill. He thought there was no hon. Member in the House who could for a moment accuse either the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any Member of the Government, of having broken faith upon this question. But a most extraordinary cause had been taken by the Government to facilitate the passing of the Bill. He believed—and if he was wrong he should be glad to be corrected—that the Government, to help on this Bill, had absolutely dropped the Order of Supply for three days. If that were true, surely the Government had fulfilled their promise—he considered, more than fulfilled their promise—to the promoters of the Bill. He would not then go into the reasons which had induced the Government to give a Saturday Sitting for the discussion of the Bill, as to do so would detain the House too long, and he did not forget that they were to meet on Saturday, and to sit all through Sunday as the promoters of the Bill had expressed their readiness to do so, and he believed there was no Rule to the contrary. That being so, of course, the bar of the House of Commons would be kept open, and at the instigation of Sunday closers. Why should the Government give such facilities? They had undoubtedly been told that there was a large preponderance of public feeling in Ireland in favour of the Bill.

MR. SPEAKER

said, the hon. Member must not go into the merits of the Bill.

DR. O'LEARY

bowed to the decision of the Chair; but although he thought he touched the margin very closely, he did not actually go into the merits of the Bill. He maintained that the Government had no justification for giving a special day to a private Member. The reason they had done so was that it was said there was a large preponderance of feeling in favour of the Bill; and, believing that to be true, they gave facilities for passing the Bill. But what were the facts? He would only touch the margin closely; but he remembered that two years since, the justification of the Government in helping on the Bill was that the people of Ireland were in favour of it, and that 170,000 petitioned in favour of it. But what was the case now? Look at the Petitions which had been presented to the House this year.

MR. SPEAKER

said, the hon. Member was going beyond the Question, which was the time at which the Bill should be taken. He must ask him to keep to the Question.

DR. O'LEARY

said, he had sought through the authorities for precedents and could find none. It must be perfectly well known to the House that ever since the year 1874, the Government had given a quasi-opposition to the principle of the Bill which they were now assisting, and he thought the onus laid upon the Government of showing good reason for the course they now proposed to take. The Government had entirely changed their ground, and, without giving either Notice or reason therefore, had given unprecedented facilities for the passing of a Bill which they for several years opposed. Irish Members who were opposed to the Bill were determined to use every means in their power to give effect to their opposition. They were prepared, if necessary, to carry on the discussion during the whole of Saturday and Sunday; and he asked the Government whether they were prepared to accept so awful a responsibility? A good deal had been said about obstruction in that House. He knew nothing about that point; but he should certainly protest against any course which might have the effect of curtailing the rights of minorities either inside Parliament, or beyond its walls. If the Government persisted in the course upon which they had entered, they would run the risk of causing a fearful scandal by compelling the House of Parliament to sit on a Sunday, in order to pass a Bill whose object was to close all public-houses in Ireland on all corresponding days during the period through which the Act had to run. As far as the Sitting on Saturday was concerned, he would point out to the House that such a Sitting would be unjust to those Members of the House who held the Jewish faith.

MR. SPEAKER

pointed out to the hon. Member that he was travelling beyond the Question before the House, which was simply as to when the Bill should proceed to its next stage.

DR. O'LEARY

said, he only wished, in conclusion, to express his opinion that the conduct of the Government in giving a Saturday to the third reading of the Bill was such as to bring discredit not only upon the Government, but upon the House.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he did not rise for the purpose of saying anything as to the conduct of the Government in this matter. That must be judged by the House. What he rose for was to make an appeal to the good feeling of the House, and to ask hon. Members to consider whether they were not inflicting needless cruelty upon the Speaker—an official whom they all honoured—by keeping him in the Chair up to so late (orearly) an hour, with the almost absolute certainty that he would have to resume his seat at noon?

MR. MURPHY

said, he regretted that the Government had so far furthered this Bill as to facilitate its passing before the people of Ireland had really been able to pronounce an opinion upon it.

MR. ONSLOW

asked, whether the Bill would be put upon the Paper as the First Order of the Day at the Saturday Sitting.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

replied in the affirmative.

CAPTAIN PIM

moved that the third reading be taken on the following Tuesday, the 13th instant.

MR. STACPOOLE

seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "this day," in order to add the words "upon Tuesday next,"—(Captain Pim,)—instead thereof.

Question put, "That the words 'this day," stand part of the Question."

The House divided:— Ayes 61; Noes 18: Majority 43. — (Div. List, No. 269.)

Main Question put.

Ordered, That the Bill be read the third time this day.