HC Deb 02 August 1878 vol 242 cc1126-39

Order for Committee read.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 5 (Regulation as to employment of child under 10, and certificate of knowledge being condition of employment of child over 10).

MR. RAMSAY

moved, as an Amendment, in page 1, lines 20 and 21, to leave out "thirteen," and insert "fourteen." It would have the effect of making the limit of age the same as that in the Factory Act.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

observed, that in England, 13 was the rule, and he objected to its being made different in Scotland.

MR. RAMSAY

said, that the only object was to assimilate the ages with those of the Factory Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 (Restriction on casual employment of children).

On the Motion of Mr. RAMSAY, Amendment made in page 2, line 4, to leave out "thirteen," and insert "fourteen."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 (Exception to prohibition of employment of children).

MR. RAMSAY

moved, as an Amendment, in page 2, line 14, to leave out "two," and insert "three." The object of the Amendment was to make it necessary that schools should be within three, instead of two, miles' distance of children.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, that this was another Amendment that he thought should be more fully discussed before it was passed.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

stated, that the matter had been considered by the Government, and that after very careful consideration they had adopted the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Definition of employment in case of parent).

MR. C. S. PARKER

asked, if he rightly understood that under the clause persons would be liable to imprisonment for any period not exceeding 14 days?

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that the object of imprisonment as directed by the Bill was to punish a person for not sending his children to school.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 17, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 18 (Teachers may be appointed for fixed periods not exceeding five years. Removal of such teachers).

MR. GRANT DUFF

moved, as an Amendment, in page 5, line 22, to leave out the words "Latin, Greek, modern languages," and insert— The language, literature, and history of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, of France, Germany, and the other principal European countries, Latin and Greek.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

was afraid that he could not assent to the Amendment, and for this reason, that the words used in the section were at present sufficient to define the class of schools to which it was intended to apply.

MR. GRANT DUFF

said, that the Amendment had been pressed upon him very much by schoolmasters, who considered it right that the alteration should be made; and that, as under the present Act, the study of English should not be placed at a great disadvantage. They considered that it was very objectionable that people should be led to suppose that the study of Latin and Greek took higher rank for the purpose of school instruction than the study of English. At that late hour it was impossible to go into the arguments on the subject, but he was prepared to argue the matter at considerable length.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

remarked that the words of the present clause, which were the same as those used in the Act of 1872, were sufficiently comprehensive to include all the branches of education which the hon. Member desired.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, if the Amendment was to have real practical effect, he would heartily support it; but if it was a mere question of words, he thought it was scarcely worth while to press it.

MR. GRANT DUFF

said, after the expressions of opinion he had heard, he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause A (Expenses of higher class school buildings may be paid out of school fund and charged on rates).

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

moved, as an Amendment, in page 5, line 15, after "management," to insert— And shall be empowered to pay from the school fund such other expenses for the promotion of efficient education in the said school as are not provided for by the revenues stated in section sixty-two of the principal Act: Provided, That no expenditure under this section shall be incurred without the consent of the Scotch Education Department.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

objected to the Amendment, the object of which would be to have higher education paid for out of the public rates. He was quite prepared, in so far as the Bill went, to allow school boards to maintain schools out of the public rates; but there was strong objection to going beyond that. Great complaints had already been made about the school rates which had been levied. If they were going to endow higher education it should be in the form of exhibitions, and such like; and not by reducing, at the public expense, the cost of education to those who were able to pay for it.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

could not understand the objection to the Amendment, which he thought would have been assented to at once. The principal Act intended to promote very much the education of the higher schools; but on its being worked out, it was found that these schools had been deprived of the support which was intended for them. Almost all the chief schools boards in Scotland desired to have the power which the clause would confer upon them, and he was equally sure the opinion of the country favoured it.

MR. MARK STEWART

supported the Amendment, in favour of which a strong feeling prevailed in Scotland.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

supported the Amendment. It was quite as important to have efficient secondary schools as it was to provide efficient elementary schools.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

said, if the Amendment were embodied in the Bill, it would provide for the education of the rich as well as the poor coming out of the public rates in Scotland. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) had advocated the establishment of secondary schools at the expense of the rates, and if that were agreed to, there would be a secondary as well as primary school in every parish. Already, the expenses on the ratepayers were very great in consequence of the Education Act, and he knew there was considerable feeling on the subject in the country. He agreed in education being extended to certain classes by means of the rates; but he objected to any money being applied for the purpose of educating the children of those who could afford to pay for their instruction.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

did not in any way object to the Amendment. He thought it was quite out of the question to say that its intention was to establish throughout Scotland secondary schools. The intention of the Amendment seemed to him to be quite plain, and that was to enable school boards to render effective secondary high-class schools.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

approved of the Amendment, because it was surrounded with such safeguards, that abuses in respect to burdensome charges on the ratepayers without restriction, were nearly impracticable. He, therefore, hoped the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay) would not divide against it.

MR. RAMSAY

said, there was no one more anxious than himself to see higher education placed within the reach of all classes; but he was not certain that the object of the Amendment would be understood in Scotland as securing that end. He thought it would be much better to withdraw the Amendment until another Session of Parliament; and then when the people of Scotland had had an opportunity of understanding its intention, it could, if necessary, be brought forward again.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

MR. J. STEWART

moved the following new Clause:—

(School Boards may unite.)

"It shall be lawful for any one or more School Boards, whether of parishes or of burghs, with the sanction of the Scotch Education Department, to unite with any other School Board or School Boards, whether of parishes or burghs, for the purposes of the principal Act and this Act, and in the event of an agreement to unite being so come to the localities represented by the boards so agreeing to unite shall from and after the general election of a School Board next ensuing after such agreement cease to have separate School Boards, and shall be united into one school district and shall have a School Board accordingly."

He hoped the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate would see his way to accept the proposal, which was that, in certain cases, school boards, if they thought necessary, might unite. The principal Act gave power to a parish school board to absorb a burgh school board; but a burgh school board could not absorb a parish school board. The clause was intended to meet the latter case.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

did not disagree with the hon. Member when he said that there were cases for which it might be desirable to provide a power for union. But he did not by any means believe that the boards themselves should have the power of deciding whether they would unite. That was a matter for the consideration of the ratepayers.

MR. J. STEWART

said, that as he understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman to accept the proposal, he had no objection to withdraw the clause and to bring it up in an amended form.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. J. STEWART

moved to insert the following Clause:—

(Removal of doubt as to right of schoolmaster to the franchise.)

"Whereas doubts have arisen as to the right of a teacher of a public school under a School Board, "who holds office at the pleasure of the Board, and who occupies as part of the emoluments of his office any lands or heritages under the School Board, to he registered as a voter and to vote at elections for a Member or Members of Parliament, in respect of the qualification afforded by such lands and heritages: And whereas it is expedient that such doubts should be removed, Be it enacted, That it shall be no objection to the name of any such teacher being placed on the register of voters for the burgh or county within which such lands or heritages are situate, that the lands or heritages occupied by him, and on which his claim to the franchise rests, are held as part of the emoluments of his office, and at the pleasure of the School Board."

He was willing to agree to the alteration of words proposed by the hon. Member for the Wigton Burghs — namely, to substitute the words "lands or heritages" for "dwelling house."

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the clause was not in Order, and could not be moved.

DR. CAMERON

said, that it had been understood that after the introduction of this Bill, all schoolmasters would obtain the franchise.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

hoped the Government would make some provision for granting the franchise to schoolmasters. Possibly, the words of the clause were not the best that could be devised; but some amendment of the Bill might be sufficient for the purpose.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that it appeared to him that a clause dealing with the franchise would not be in Order in an education measure.

MR. RAMSAY

said, that the Committee would like to be informed whether it would be possible, at any time during the progress of the Bill, to have such a clause as this inserted? Undoubtedly, it was understood that this clause would be accepted; and he felt that, when the only provision by which teachers would have a claim to the franchise was struck out, it was with the opinion that the franchise would be secured by the subsequent introduction of this clause.

THE CHAIRMAN

remarked, that he had already said the clause was not in Order. The Committee could only deal with the Bill; a clause relating to the franchise was not within its purview.

MR. MARK STEWART

said, that he withdrew an Amendment, on the understanding that a clause to this effect would be accepted.

THE CHAIRMAN

repeated that a clause relating to the franchise was out of Order, but the hon. Member would be in Order in moving his first clause.

MR. MARK STEWART

begged to move, after Clause 18, to insert the following Clause:—

(Retiring allowance to teachers of higher class public schools.)

"That Clause sixty-one of the principal Act (one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two) shall extend to retiring allowance to be granted by School Boards to teachers of higher class public schools as well as elementary public schools."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

thought that if a clause really were necessary to effect the object in view, one might be introduced; but he did not consider that the clause as it stood was admissible.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

said, there had been a great deal of discussion with reference to the status of schoolmasters under the former Act; but, anxious as he was to have the situation of a schoolmaster improved, and his remuneration largely increased, he was sure that the present proposal was inopportune, and would have a detrimental effect.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MARK STEWART

moved the following new Clause:—

(Removal from office of teachers.)

"Notwithstanding anything contained in section fifty-five of the principal Act, the principal teacher of a school appointed after the passing of the Act of 1872, may be removed from office at any time, by summary procedure before the sheriff in case of immorality or cruelty, or on a report by one of Her Majesty's inspectors of schools in case of incompetency, inefficiency, or neglect of duty; such report to be approved by the Scotch Education Department."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he did not see that there was any necessity for this clause.

MR. MARK STEWART

said, that the object of it was to fix some limit to the power of a school board to remove a teacher. At present they might get rid of a schoolmaster for the most trivial matters.

Clause negatived.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

moved, in page 6, after Clause 22, to insert the following Clause:—

(Extension of burghs for municipal purposes not to alter School Board areas unless otherwise ordered by Scotch Education Department.)

"Where by any local Act, or under the powers of any public general Act, the area of any burgh shall hereafter be extended for municipal or police purposes, such extension shall not alter for the purposes of the principal Act or this Act the area of such burgh, or the area of any parish from which any district shall be taken for such extension; and the valuation roll of such extended burgh, so far as it relates to such district, shall, for the purposes of the principal Act and this Act, be held to be a part of the valuation roll applicable to such parish, unless and until such district be annexed to the said burgh for those purposes in manner hereinafter mentioned: Provided always, That the Scotch Education Department may at any time, after due inquiry, order such district to be annexed to such burgh for the purposes of the principal Act and this Act, upon such terms and subject to such arrangements as in the educational interests of the district the said department may think desirable."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

observed, that very inconvenient results might be produced by the extension of school board districts, in regard to the property and arrangement of the different districts. He would suggest to the hon. Baronet the Member for North Lanarkshire that he should amend his clause, by providing that the Scotch Education Department, in directing that a district should be annexed to a burgh for school board purposes, should be limited to cases where it formed part of the same county. Further, he would suggest that the words at the end of the clause, "in the educational interests of the district," should be omitted.

MR. RAMSAY

said, that in certain cases, before the limits of a district could be altered, the sanction, or at least the concurrence, of the Public Works Loans Commissioners was requisite.

DR. CAMERON

saw no reason why there should be any difference between England and Scotland in that matter, and thought there would be no more difficulty in Scotland than was experienced in England.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

proposed only that the alteration should be made after full and proper inquiry by the Education Department.

Clause amended, and agreed to.

MR. GRANT DUFF

moved the following clause:—

(Manual of elementary natural science.)

"That, immediately after the passing of this Act, it shall be the duty of the Scotch Educa- tion Department to cause to be prepared a manual of elementary natural science, and that, on and after the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-one, the use of the said manual shall be obligatory in all public schools throughout Scotland."

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

did not exactly understand what would be the effect of this clause, and thought there would be some difficulty with regard to it.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that the Scotch Education Department and the Government were exceedingly unwilling to force a manual of this kind upon the public schools in Scotland, and thought it would be better to leave its adoption to their own choice.

MR. GRANT DUFF

observed, that if a manual of elementary science were not introduced by the Government, it would be 20 years before it was adopted. He proposed the clause as the only practical mode of securing its adoption.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

said, that the Scotch Education Department ought to take the matter up, and so soon as possible supply the manual.

Clause negatived.

MR. RAMSAY

moved the following Clause:—

(Burgh School Board in certain cases may include parish School Board.)

"In the case of any parish within which there is a burgh having a separate School Board, and containing a population greater in number than the population of the landward part of such parish, it shall be lawful for the Scotch Education Department to order that such landward parish, from and after a date to be specified in such order, shall cease to have a separate School Board, and shall, for the purposes of the principal Act and of this Act, be included in the area of such burgh and be subject to the School Board of the same."

He said, that it simply carried out the 19th clause of the principal Act, under which the Education Department from time to time had authority to order that any town having a school board should cease to have a board, and that its board should be merged in that of the parish. This clause provided for cases where it was desirable to merge the parish school board in that of the burgh.

MR. DALRYMPLE

suggested that the clause should be brought up on Report.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

was aware that there were one or two places in Scotland where the parish was so small that there was no school board, and the children attended the neighbouring burgh school. He knew only, however, of two such instances. On the other hand, there were a great many cases where considerable hardship would be effected by this clause. If the clause were adopted at all, it ought to be re-modelled.

MR. RAMSAY

said, that the primary object of the clause was to meet the case of places where there was no school board, and the children were educated in the burgh schools, their own districts bearing no share of the expense. The clause was also designed to meet cases— as that of the burgh of Renfrew—where the outlying district was willing to bear its share of the burden. Considerable inconvenience was experienced in such cases from the modes of election in burghs and parishes being different. In no single instance would the ratepayers be prejudiced, because the Education Department had full power to prevent any wrong being done.

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY

hoped the clause would not be pressed.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. RAMSAY

next moved the following Clause:—

(Detached parts of pariah to form part of parish by which they are surrounded.)

"For the purposes of the principal Act and of this Act, all detached parts of parishes shall be considered as forming part of that parish by which they are surrounded, or, if partly surrounded by two or more parishes, then as forming part of that parish with which they have the longest common boundary: Provided, That, in case any question or dispute shall arise under this section, the same shall be settled and determined by the Scotch Education Department, whose decision shall be final."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

intimated that he could not accept the clause.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

thought that exceptional cases, like those under consideration, should be provided for.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

observed, that it would be a great pity to overturn all existing arrangements for the sake of a few isolated cases.

Clause negatived.

MR. TREVELYAN

moved the following Clauses:— The word sheriff, or sheriff of the county, in the principal Act and in this Act, shall mean any police magistrate in any burgh where the ordinary sheriff courts are not regularly held. Every School Board shall have it in its power to compel all half-time children in attendance at Board Schools to attend one particular school should it deem it desirable to do so. That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in section seventy of the principal Act, proceedings may be taken against a defaulting parent at intervals of not less than three weeks after a previous conviction. He said, the first two clauses were Amendments of Clause 21; and with regard to the third, it proceeded upon a pretty-well established principle. The proposal to give the School Board power to compel half-time children to attend any particular school did not, he thought, conflict with any previous legislation.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

remarked that the Factory Acts gave a right of choice as to the particular school to be attended.

Clauses, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

moved the following Clause:— When two or more parishes or parts of parishes are united, whether quoad omnia or quoad sacra, such united parishes or parts of parishes shall for the purposes of the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 and 1878, be esteemed one parish.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

was surprised that the hon. Member desired to introduce a clause which would necessarily have the effect of diminishing the area of school boards.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. GRANT DUFF (for Mr. R. W. DUFF)

moved the following Clause:— Notwithstanding the provision in Clause 16 of the principal Act, providing for the election of a School Board in each parish and burgh once and not oftener in every period of three years, it is hereby enacted that, from and after the passing of this Act, the election of a School Board shall take place once only in five years.

Amendment negatived.

On the Motion of Mr. J. W. BARCLAY, the following Clause was read a first and second time, and added to the Bill:—

(Compulsory purchase of sites.—Regulations as to the purchase of land compulsorily.—Publication of notices.—Service of notices.—Petition to Education Department.—No order valid until confirmed by Parliament.—Costs how to be defrayed.)

"With respect to the purchase of land by School Boards for the purposes of the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 and 1878, the following provisions shall have effect (that is to say):— (1.) 'The Lands Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845,' and the Acts amending the same, shall be incorporated with this Act, except the provisions relating to access to the special Act; and in construing those Acts for the purposes of this section the special Act shall be construed to mean this Act, and the promoters of the undertaking shall be construed to mean the School Board, and land shall be construed to include any right over land; (2.) The School Board, before putting in force any of the powers of the said Acts, with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement, shall— (a.) Publish, during three consecutive weeks in the months of October and November, or either of them, a notice describing shortly the object for which the land is proposed to be taken, naming a place where a plan of the land proposed to be taken may be seen at all reasonable hours, and stating the quantity of land that they require, and shall further; (b.) After such publication, serve a notice, in manner mentioned in this section on every owner or reputed owner, lessee or reputed lessee, and occupier of such land, defining in each case the particular land intended to be taken, and requiring an answer stating whether the person so served assents, dissents, or is neuter in respect of taking such land; (c.) Such notice shall be served— (a.) By delivery of the same personally on the person required to be served, or, if such person is absent abroad, to his agent; or (b.) By leaving the same at the usual or last known place of abode of such person as aforesaid, or by forwarding the same by post in a registered letter, addressed to the usual or last known place of abode of such person. (3.) Upon compliance with the provisions contained in this section with respect to notices the School Board may, if they think fit, present a petition under their seal to the Scotch Education Department (hereinafter called 'the Department'), praying that an order may be made authorising the School Board to put in force the powers of the said Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement, so far as regards the land therein mentioned; the petition shall state the land intended to be taken and the purposes for which it is required, and the names of the owners, lessees, and occupiers of land who have assented, dissented, or are neuter in respect of the taking of such land, or who have returned no answer to the notice, and shall be supported by such evidence as the Department may from time to time require; (4.) If, on consideration of the petition, and proof of the publication and service of the proper notices, the Department think fit to proceed with the case, they may, if they think fit, appoint some person to inquire in the district in which the land is situate respecting the propriety of the proposed order, and also direct such person to hold a public inquiry; (5.) After such consideration and proof, and after receiving a report made upon any such inquiry, the Department may make the order prayed for, authorising the School Board to put in force with reference to the land referred to in such order the powers of the said Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement, or any of them, and either absolutely or with such conditions and modifications as they may think fit, and it shall be the duty of the School Board to serve a copy of any order so made in the manner and upon the persons in which and upon whom notices in respect of the land to which the order relates are required by this Act to be served; (6.) No order so made shall be of any validity unless the same has been confirmed by Act of Parliament, and it shall be lawful for the Department, as soon as conveniently may be, to obtain such confirmation, and the Act confirming such order shall be deemed to be a public general Act of Parliament; (7.) The Department, in case of their refusing or modifying such order, may make such order as they think fit for the allowance of the costs, charges, and expenses of any person whose land is proposed to be taken of and incident to such application and inquiry respectively; (8.) All costs, charges, and expenses incurred by the Department in relation to any order under this section shall, to such amount as the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury think proper to direct, and all costs, charges, and expenses of any person which shall be so allowed by the Department as aforesaid, shall become a charge upon the school fund of the district to which such order relates, and be repaid to the said Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury or to such person respectively, by annual instalments not exceeding five, together with interest after the yearly rate of five pounds in the hundred, to be computed from the date of any such direction of the said Commissioners, or allowance of such costs, charges, and expenses respectively upon so much of the principal sum due in respect of the said costs, charges, and expenses as may from time to time remain unpaid.

MR. J. W. BARCLAY

moved the following Clause:— Clergymen of the Church of Scotland shall be liable to be assessed for the poor and for the purposes of the Education (Scotland) Acts, 1872 and 1878, in respect of their manses and glebes.

Amendment negatived.

MR. GRANT DUFF

considered he was in Order in bringing under the notice of the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate a suggestion of a school board in the North, that it was de- sirable for such bodies to have greater powers to establish industrial schools. He believed such powers were granted under the English Education Act of 1871, and he asked the right hon. and learned Lord to consider the question.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, the subject was one to which he had given a good deal of consideration; but, finding that school boards and parochial boards in Scotland, and Scotch Members entertaining such widely different views upon the subject, he gave up, for the present, all idea of legislation on the question, which, however, he must say, was a very important one.

MR. GRANT DUFF

drew the attention of the Lord Advocate to the fact that many persons in Scotland desired to have the examinations of elementary schools carried out simply by Her Majesty's Inspectors, and not by other persons as the Bill provided.

House resumed.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next.

House adjourned at a quarter after Four o'clock in the morning till Monday next.