HC Deb 16 March 1877 vol 233 cc87-9

Order for Second Reading read.

CAPTAIN NOLAN,

in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that although a great many Irish Members had left the House under the impression that the Bill would not be taken, still, as a private Member who had not been fortunate enough to procure a Wednesday, he felt he would be wanting in his duty if he did not try to proceed with it when he had a chance. The Bill was not a revolutionary one, and was founded on the idea that the Boards should be purely elective. The measure would also avoid the difficulty at present experienced of having so many voting lists.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Captain Nolan.)

MR. BRUEN,

in moving that the Bill be read a second time that day six months, said, he was taken by surprise by the Bill being proceeded with at so late an hour. He did not think that the measure had been well conceived, because the bodies which administered the affairs of counties in Ireland were at present representative, and with a few improvements the system would be rendered entirely satisfactory. Moreover, such a change as the one proposed by the measure was one which was not at all in accordance with the Resolution which was arrived at by the House the other day. He denied that in many eases the Board would really be elective. He believed, if he went into the details of the measure, he would be able to show that many of the provisions would be unworkable, but he would not detain the House at that late hour, but would conclude by moving its rejection.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now", and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(Mr. Bruen.)

MR. PARNELL

said, there appeared to be a very remarkable difference between the system of county government in Ireland and in England. In Ireland they were governed by a system of grand juries and County Boards, and in England they wore governed by a system of local authorities. The English system had grown with the growth of the country; but in Ireland they had never had any institutions except those which appeared to be given, he might say, as a symbol of contrast, and against which he protested. After the debate which had taken place on the Motion of the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) the other day, he thought it was rather late in the day for any hon. Member of the House to get up and say that it was not right to extend representative institutions. He hoped that an opportunity would be given, either on the second reading of the Irish Valuation Bill, or some other occasion, for a full discussion on the whole question of Grand Jury and county reform in Ireland.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN

said, that he felt the existing system was indefensible. Provided each Barony in a county was represented, the remainder of the Grand Jury was entirely in the hands of the High Sheriff, who might, if he so pleased, call as a Grand Juror any person, quite irrespective of his property or other qualification, it was no answer to say he did not do so—the objection still remained. There was a strong feeling in Ireland against the continuance of this system, and in favour of making the County Boards representa- tive, and he should therefore vote in favour of the second reading of the Bill, as a protest against that system.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH

said, that the question before the House was not whether the Grand Jury system was entirely satisfactory; and he was quite ready to admit that it needed reform. But the question was, whether it should be reformed in the way proposed by this Bill. He wished it to be understood that the Government fully accepted the Resolution of his hon. Friend (Mr. Clare Read), passed unanimously a few nights ago, with respect to Ireland as well as to England; and when they were able to approach the question, the Government would be most anxious to provide really representative bodies for the transaction of county business in Ireland. But he could not accept the present Bill as even the basis for county reforms in Ireland, and he must therefore oppose the second reading.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 62: Majority 47.—(Div. List, No. 39.)

Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Second Reading put off for six months.