CAPTAIN PRICE,on rising "to call attention to the proposed scheme for raising a fund to provide pensions for the widows of seamen in the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines," said, that last year, when the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had introduced the Navy Estimates he had been kind enough to 1765 say that this subject should have the careful consideration of the Board, so that he had the authority of that right hon. Gentleman for considering it a question of considerable importance. It was hardly necessary to remind the House of the peculiar dangers to which our seamen and Marines were exposed in war and peace, or of the poverty and distress which followed in the train of such fearful disasters as the blowing up of the Thunderer and the foundering of the Captain. It was, however, only when disasters of that character occurred that a general sympathy was aroused, and the public acknowledged the claims which the widows and orphans of the sufferers had upon them. These women and children formed no small portion of the paupers in the workhouses at Portsmouth and Devonport. There were, too, the widows of those men who died in such unhealthy climates as the West Coast of Africa, while they were putting down the Slave Trade. Again, there were the widows and orphans of men who were drowned at sea, and of those who were killed by accident. Whenever a subscription was got up on behalf of these poor people, it was a remarkable fact that invariably a large amount was subscribed by the men themselves. For instance, in the case of the Thunderer, there was a subscription of about £10,000, and of that sum at least one-fourth was raised by seamen and Marines. A very large sum was also raised in the seaport towns, and the remainder chiefly in London. Little or nothing, however, was contributed by the inhabitants of the great inland towns which were the centres of our commercial wealth. He did not complain of this, but he appealed to the Representatives of those towns to assist him in securing the object he had in view, inasmuch as the Navy had done much to enable them to amass their wealth, and to give them the peaceable enjoyment of it. The seamen and Marines were unwilling to be continually appealing to charity, and therefore some 10 or 12 years ago a number of petty officers conceived the idea that the men, by subscribing in large numbers a small amount monthly, might raise sufficient money in the aggregate to provide pensions for their widows and orphan children. The only question for the House to consider was, whether they would be able to do that 1766 of themselves, or whether they should have the assistance of others. It was his opinion that they could not carry out their object without assistance; and he would now proceed to show how that assistance could be given to them without putting the country to the expense of a single halfpenny—nay, in a way which would put a large sum annually into the pockets of the taxpayers. The movement to which he was calling attention did not make much progress until the great disaster of the Captain, in 1870, gave an impetus to it, and several eminent naval officers took it up. Schemes more or less elaborate were forwarded to the Admiralty, but various objections were raised to thorn. Finally, in 1874, the men again put their heads together and produced a scheme which was sent to the Admiralty, and which the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord alluded to in 1876. In the introduction to that scheme it was stated that the men desired a deduction to be made from their pay in order to enable their widows to receive a pension at the rate provided by the accompanying rules. The first rule was that every man should pay 6d. a-month as long as he received any pay or pension from the Service. Then it was proposed that a widow should be entitled to a pension of £24 a-year, and that certain amounts should be given to the children. The Admiralty were pleased with the scheme, and sent out a Circular, the replies to which showed that no fewer than 22,000 men agreed to subscribe to this fund on the basis proposed. The scheme was next submitted to Mr. Finlaison, the eminent actuary, who issued a clear Report, the pith of which was that the amount the men proposed to subscribe would not be nearly sufficient for the purpose. The men were disappointed, but they were not disheartened, and accordingly set themselves to re-consider the matter. They accordingly resolved to modify the scheme, and agreed that they would subscribe 1s., or even 1s. 6d. a-month if necessary; that they would be content with a pension beginning with £20 a-year to widows; and that the children should not be included in the scheme. This amended scheme had been presented to the Admiralty, but he did not yet know what Report had been made on it, or with what amount of favour they regarded it. He had, however, 1767 made certain calculations which showed what would be the probable working of the fund. Taking an average force of 20,000 men, of whom 15,000 were on active service and 5,000 on the pension list—which would really represent the number on the pension list for many years—the death-rate in this force, according to the last Returns, would be about 285—namely, 135 on active service and 150 on the pension list. It was not proposed that the latter should be called upon to subscribe anything, that was, the existing pensioners; but for the future the men who passed from active service on to the pension list would be subscribers. What number of widows would these men leave? It was almost impossible to ascertain the number; but taking the Captain as a test, the 433 seamen and Marines lost in her had left 120 widows, or less than one-third of the whole number. One-third of 285 would be 95, but taking a large margin, he would assume that 120 widows were likely to come on the fund every year. Allowing a reduction of 6 per cent in the course of the year for death and re-marriages, which would disqualify them for taking advantage of the fund, he calculated that the number of widows at the end of the second year would be 233, and so the number would go on increasing by the annual increment of 120, minus the 6 per cent, until, at the end of the 90th year, there would be about 2,000 widows on the fund, and from that year the numbers would be perpetually recurring. For each widow there would be required a pension of £20 per annum, and the maximum charge on the fund for these widows would be £40,000. Towards this sum he proposed that the men should subscribe 1s. 8d. a-month, or £20,000 a-year, which should be supplemented by another £20,000 from extraneous sources, making in all £40,000 per annum. The pensions for the first year would amount to £2,400, leaving a balance on the year of £37,600. On this he would allow 3 per cent interest, which would bring it up to £38,916. So it would go on accumulating until, at the end of the 17th year, the estimated amount of accumulation would be £571,000, after defraying the charges of the year. The interest on this accumulation at 3½ per cent would be £20,000, just equal to the grant from extraneous sources, which 1768 might then be dropped. Now, he might be asked what were the extraneous sources from which he proposed to raise the second £20,000. There were, as a rule, fewer fines in the Navy than in the Army. In the Army, for example, there was an extensive system of fines, amounting to £90,000 a-year, of which £35,000 went back into the soldiers' pockets in the shape of rewards for good conduct and long service. In the Navy, however, the fines only amounted to £2,500 a-year. Here was one source. Then the Government now gained no less than £65,000 a-year from the difference between the money paid to the men in respect of provisions saved by them and the actual cost of those provisions. Surely the Government were not acting quite fairly towards the men if they surrendered provisions worth 1s. and the Government only returned them 9d. A considerable part of this sum might be applicable towards the purpose he had mentioned. Then there were the clothing and unclaimed money of men who died at sea, and the effects of deserters. These would produce £3,000. The skimming from the boiling of the men's provisions now produced £1,000, but as the men had no interest in saving it, a great deal now wont overboard. This honestly belonged to the men, as it came from their own provisions, and would produce another £2,000. These amounts, taken together, would fully satisfy the demand. The desire of the men that such a fund should be started was very much increasing throughout the Navy, and, if established, it would effect a saving to the country instead of involving any loss, because it would lessen the number of desertions. The desertions in the Navy numbered 1,000 a-year, and it was variously estimated that each man cost the country from £200 to £300 or £400 a-man. Taking the loss at £150, which he thought was quite within bounds, we had here a total of £150,000 a-year, one-half of which he believed might be saved by establishing a widows fund. In the port of Plymouth alone he found that 117 widows of seamen were receiving parochial relief. With a scheme of the kind which he proposed, we should encourage in our seamen provident habits, general respectability, and matrimony; for though marriage might be of doubtful advantage as regarded the 1769 Army, in the Navy he thought the more married men we had the better. Such a scheme would also attract the best men from the Merchant Service, which was very desirable. There was only one serious objection which he had heard of to the proposal. It might, no doubt, be said that if they did this for the Navy they should also do it for the Army; but it was to be remembered that, while each Service had some advantages which the other had not, the difference in those advantages was entirely a difference in kind, and not a difference in degree. He did not wish that the Navy should have greater advantages than the Army; but there were many reasons why they should look upon the Navy, in a totally different aspect, in this respect, from the Army. The Army might be described as a short-service corps, which the Navy was not; and, of course, this scheme would apply only to the continuous-service men of the Navy. Moreover, soldiers were often allowed to have their wives with them, and their children were supported and educated by the State. As seamen were deprived of most comforts during their lives, they were at least entitled to ask the assistance of the State for those they left behind them. In conclusion, he begged to thank the House for having heard him with so much patience. He thought he had said sufficient to show that the subject was one which deserved attention; and he believed the plan which he had sketched contained within it the germs of a system of co-operation which would be beneficial to the country and productive of great advantages to the Navy, and to the seamen whom we employed.