RESOLUTION. (Hansard, 25 June 1877)

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
moved, in pursuance of Notice, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Supply."

§ MR. PARNELL
wished to know, as a matter of Order, whether the Motion could be put from the Chair, except with the unanimous and universal consent of the House?

§ MR. SPEAKER
The House is aware that in consequence of the count-out, the Committee of Supply on Friday night last became a lapsed Order. Therefore, the House cannot go into Committee of Supply to-day unless the Order is again set up. The proceeding is usual and reasonable, and no other Notice besides that which appears on the Paper to-day is necessary, according to the practice of the House.

§ SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN
said, that it was a new practice, which was only introduced in 1861 by Lord Palmerston, the usual course previously to that, according to Sir Erskine May, having been when Supply became a dropped Order on Friday, to set it up again for the following Thursday. It had not been adopted more than three or four times of late years, and in his opinion the Motion under discussion ought not to be regarded by the House as an ordinary Motion. In the course of 204 last year, on June 26, Mr. Disraeli had formally moved that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, because there had been a count-out. The House ought to be jealous of any interference with old-established forms. Besides, private Members had an interest in keeping Friday; but if when a count-out occurred on that day, the Government took Monday as a matter of course, it would have no object in keeping a House on Friday. For what reason, then, was the old rule departed from on the present occasion?

§ MR. W. H. SMITH
said, that the fact that the Secretary of State for War last week had put down the Army Estimates for that evening was a sufficient reason for the course the Government had taken. A pledge had therefore been given by the Government to that effect, and hon. Members had come down to the House expecting, of course, that the arrangement would be carried out. It would, therefore, cause great inconvenience as well as trouble if that understanding were now departed from, simply owing to the accident of a count-out. He did not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir Colman O'Loghlen) was in his place on Friday evening; but the Government made every effort to keep a House, and were present in considerable numbers; but it was impossible to keep a House, and, great as was the inconvenience on Friday night to several hon. Members, it would be still greater that night if the course of Business were disturbed and the Vote3 could not be taken. The practice of the House for the past 16 years in this respect had been one which had met with universal approval, and had arisen from the necessity of advancing Public Business.

§ LORD ROBERT MONTAGU
said, that the custom was for dropped Orders to be put down at the bottom of the list of Orders for the Day ensuing, and the Motion for going into Committeee of Supply ought to have been the last on the list. Sir Erskine May, however, had said that a Motion for Supply did not become a dropped Order — so that no question of the kind could occur. But in the year 1861 Lord Palmerston had connived at Supply being dropped by reason of a count-out, and had made a Motion like the one before the House, on the first day of the holidays. Of 205 course, it would not be contended that all that Lord Palmerston had done was necessarily right. The Secretary of the Treasury had spoken of the uniform custom of the House for the last 16 years; but he himself had found no such uniformity. He had investigated the matter, and had found several instances of Supply and other Orders having been dropped by a count-out, and on those occasions the Government of the day had put them down again, not immediately, but after the lapse of a few days. He remembered, too, that Bills under the charge of the right hon. and learned Member for County Clare had been treated in that manner. It seemed, then, that with the exception of the one precedent created by Lord Palmerston—and that a precedent that ought not to be followed, inasmuch as it was a direct violation of the Rules of the House—the custom of the House was against the Government. Rules and precedents were made to restrict the action of the majority, and he did not desire to see any of them abandoned.

§ MR. PARNELL
understood that the Notice of this Motion was not given in the usual way; but it was given after the Speaker left the Chair. He supposed that the Clerks at the Table knew the circumstances under which the Notice of the Motion was given; but he understood that the Speaker had left the Chair; and he wished to know under those circumstances whether, in the event of any objection being taken to the Motion, it would be proceeded with?

§ MR. SPEAKER
Before the House was counted out the Motion was perfectly in Order. If any objection is raised, I shall take the sense of the House in the usual way.

§ MR. WYKEHAM MARTIN
hoped the sense of the House would not be taken on the subject, for this simple reason—that Her Majesty's Government had made arrangements to enable hon. Members to bring on questions in which they were interested, and if the Motion was not agreed to the rights of private Members would be extinguished. He had himself come a considerable distance with a view of supporting the Motion of an hon. Member.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON
said, he imagined if the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) were carried it 206 would still be competent for hon. Members to proceed with their Notices on the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair. But he hoped the House would not be put to the trouble of dividing. It was quite possible, as the right hon. and learned Member for Clare and the noble Lord the Member for Westmeath had remarked, that the proceedings in the matter were a little awkward and not altogether consistent. But the House ought to recollect how this difficulty arose. It arose from the application of two arrangements, both made by the consent and for the convenience of the House. The first arrangement was that Supply should be the First Order on Friday to enable hon. Members to raise discussion; and the other was, as the House had lately decided, that the Sitting should be specially adapted to the business of Supply. If the Government had followed any other course than that which they had adopted, the House would have had very just reason to complain. As had been stated by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, Notice was given last week that the Army Estimates should be proceeded with to-day; and if hon. Members found that in consequence of what had occurred on Friday night the Army Estimates would not be proceeded with, but that some Bill would be brought on which they had not expected, the House would have had much more reason to complain.

§ SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN
said, he had made no Motion on the subject; but had simply called attention to what had occurred. He hoped that the course which in this instance had been adopted by Her Majesty's Government would not become the ordinary practice.