HC Deb 11 June 1877 vol 234 cc1571-5
SIR GEORGE BOWYER

I rise to put the Question which stands in my name. On the 31st of last month the hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), the pre- sident of the federation to which it refers, made this statement—[Cries of "Order!"] Mr. Speaker, I submit that it is quite usual to make a statement of fact for the purpose of explaining a Question, although it is not allowable to use any argument. My hon. Friend the chairman of the society, about which I have to ask the Question, at a meeting of that society, made use of these words— We hope the time is not far distant when we may see the meeting of what will really be a Liberal Parliament outside the Imperial Legislature, but, unlike it, elected by universal suffrage, and with some regard to a fair distribution of political power. I would now ask Mr. Attorney General the Question which stands in my name—Whether his attention has been called to a meeting lately held at Birmingham, where a political society or association was constituted, described as a Federation of Liberal Associations, on the following principles:—All Liberal Associations to enter into a Federal Union, preserving their independence, and separate organisation and administration, but the representatives of such associations to be convened from time to time to consider, by conferring together, the course of action to be recommended to their several associations; the object of the proposed organisation to be secured by the election of a council and committee of delegates of such associations; such associations to have separate and distinct presidents and other officers elected by and to act as officers of such associations, some of which presidents are to be members of the committee of such Federation; whether his attention has been called to Statute 39 Geo. III., c. 79, ss. 2 and 25, with reference to the legality of the said organisation; whether the Government is disposed to test the legality of the said organisation by taking the opinion of the law officers, or otherwise; and, whether such statute ought to be enforced or repealed?

MR. CHAMBERLAIN

If the House will permit me, I will put the Question of which I have given Notice before the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General replies, as it is germane to the Question which has just been put. It is—To ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether his attention has been called to a political society or association, which has existed for several years, called the Na- tional Union, and which is a Federation of Conservative Associations on the following principles: — All Conservative Associations to form part of this National Union, preserving their independence and separate organisation and administration; but the representatives of such Associations to be convened from time to time to consider, by conferring together, the course of action to be recommended to their several Associations; the object of the proposed organisation to be secured by the election of a council and committee of delegates of such Associations; such Associations to have separate and distinct presidents and other officers elected by, and to act as officers of such Associations, some of which presidents are to be members of such National Union; whether his attention has been called to Statute 39 George III. c. 79, ss. 2 and 25, with reference to the legality of the said organisation; whether the Government is disposed to test the legality of the said organisation by taking the opinion of the Law Officers or otherwise; and, whether such Statute ought to be enforced or repealed?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

Mr. Speaker, with the permission of the House I will answer the Questions which have been put to me separately. First, to deal with the Question of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wexford (Sir George Bowyer), the statute to which he has called my attention was passed in 1799 for the effectual repression of societies established for seditious and treasonable purposes. [39 Geo. III., c. 79.] It recites that— A traitorous conspiracy has been long carried on in conjunction with the persons from time to time exercising the powers of Government in France to overturn the Laws, Constitution, and Government, and every existing Establishment, civil and ecclesiastical, both in Great Britain and Ireland, and to dissolve the connection between the two Kingdoms so necessary to the security and prosperity of both; and that to carry this design into effect divers societies have been instituted of a new and dangerous character, particularly the 'United Englishmen,' the 'United Scotsmen,' the 'United Britons,' the 'United Irishmen' and the London Corresponding Societies. These societies the statute represses by name, and it then proceeds to set forth in very comprehensive terms the circumstances which shall render societies in general unlawful, and it goes on to provide that— All who shall, by contributions of money, or otherwise, aid, abet, or support such society, shall be deemed guilty of unlawful combination and confederacy. The statute then provides that such persons shall be subject to certain penalties and punishments, and, notably, the punishment of transportation for seven years, or imprisonment for two years. Now, the hon. and learned Baronet asks me whether the Confederation of Liberal Associations established by the hon. Member for Birmingham is a society which comes within the prohibitory provisions of this statute. Having given the question my very careful and serious consideration—for it is a question of great difficulty—I have come to the conclusion that, as at present constituted, that Federation does not come within the spirit of the Act, or within its exact letter. With respect to the inquiry of the hon. and learned Baronet, whether the Government is disposed to test the legality of the said organization by taking the opinion of the Law Officers or otherwise, I have no reason to believe that the Government has any such intention; but I beg to point this out to my hon. and learned Friend, it will be quite open to him in the most effectual way to test the legality of this organization, by preferring an indictment against the hon. Member for Birmingham and those who have aided and abetted in the formation of this society; and the only difficulty in adopting such a course seems to me to be this, that if the Court upon the trial of such an indictment should come to the conclusion that the construction of the Act of Parliament which my hon. and learned Friend seems inclined to adopt is the correct one, a sentence of penal servitude or of imprisonment would have to be inflicted upon the accused, the political Friends of the hon. and learned Baronet. But I have no doubt that upon a recommendation to mercy by the hon. and learned Baronet, and upon the accused undertaking forthwith to dissolve the obnoxious association, the Court might be disposed to mitigate the sentence. As to the remaining part of the Question of the hon. and learned Baronet, whether such a statute, ought to be enforced or repealed, that is a question of policy, and not of law, and upon questions of policy I do not feel myself called upon to give an opinion. With respect to the Question of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), I find upon perusing it that there is considerable similarity between it and the Question of the hon. and learned Baronet; so much so, that I think that my reply to the latter may, mutatis mutandis, be applicable to the former. I beg, however, to add this much—that I have an assurance from the honorary Secretary of the National Union, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst), who thoroughly understands the constitution and objects of this organization, that it was established not, to use the words in the recital of the statute of George III., "to overturn the Laws and Constitution of the Government," but for the purpose of maintaining them.