THE O'DONOGHUESir, it has been intimated to me from a source the accu- 169 racy of which. I cannot doubt, that on Saturday a statement was made in this House by the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) in reference to me which is liable to a very injurious interpretation. I beg to inform that hon Member that I am now in my place, prepared to meet any charge that he may have to bring against me.
§ MR. BIGGARMr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Tralee (the O'Donoghue) I beg to state that on the next occasion on which his name appears on the Paper as nominated as a Member of a Committee, if he will then attend, I will give my reasons why I object to it.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERSir, I think the House must feel somewhat embarrassed by the few words that have been spoken just now by the hon. Member for Tralee (the O'Donoghue) and the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar). I think it would be right and satisfactory to the House that we should have, in the first place, a statement of what it is that has reached the hon. Member for Tralee, and that then, if he has cause to complain, or to desire an explanation of the hon. Member for Cavan—to whom I presume he has given some Notice—we shall have some statement from that hon. Member. I was not myself present on the occasion; but I understand that words were used by the hon. Member for Cavan relating to the hon. Member for Tralee, of which the hon. Member for Tralee not unnaturally desires some explanation; and I think it would be convenient if the hon. Member for Tralee would, in the first place, state what the point was of which he complains, and that we should then have some explanation.
THE O'DONOGHUEI merely wish to say, Sir, that on coming down here to-day, at the very first opportunity I came to you to say that I felt myself called upon to notice statements which I had heard had been brought against me in this House by the hon. Member for Cavan. I also said that I thought it would be better to put a Notice upon the Paper, as, not knowing where a letter would reach the hon. Member for Cavan this morning, I had not had time to communicate to him my intention to refer to the matter in the House. You, Sir, said that you thought I had better allude to the matter at once. I said I 170 had heard a great deal about what had been said, and that I had also taken down from the fullest report I could find the observations attributed to the hon. Member. I found it in The Morning Post, where the hon. Member was reported to have said that
he objected to the nomination of the hon. Member for Tralee, and said there were weighty reasons against his appointment, but that he did not wish to state them in public in the absence of the hon. Member for Tralee.Sir, I now call upon the hon. Member to state those reasons.
§ MR. BIGGARMr. Speaker, of course the reasons which would pass through any speaker's mind would naturally be very various, and, of course, I do not now pretend to name them all, but I may refer especially to one. In the last Session, or the Session before, a very warm discussion took place in the House, in which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Tralee and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) were speakers. On that occasion, several quotations from former speeches of the hon. Member for Tralee were read and discussed in this House and in his presence; and those speeches which were quoted from the public prints satisfied me, and I think satisfied a very large proportion of hon. Members then present, that the hon. Member for Tralee did not come very pleasantly out of the discussion. ["Oh, oh!"] I do not pretend now, of course, to remember the exact words which were used. ["Oh, oh!"] I really cannot pretend to remember a discussion which took place two or three years ago of a personal nature. I have got no notice of this question being brought forward to-day, and I have therefore had no opportunity of referring to the reports; but this I can say, that the impression left upon my mind was of a very marked nature— that a Gentleman who then appeared as the hon. Member for Tralee did, was not a fit Gentleman to be appointed on a Committee. That is one of the reasons, and I think a very material and proper reason. Of course, there are a number of other loose reports, which I cannot now refer to, because I do not know whether they are true or not. You must, of course, in a case of this sort depend upon the general character of the Gentleman who is nominated; but I do specifically refer to the discus- 171 sion which took place in this House on the occasion on which the hon. Member for Tralee was replied to by the hon. Member for Mayo.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTSir, I should like to call the attention of the House to the statement that has just been made. A Member of this House makes a deliberate statement against another Member of the House on Saturday, that that Member, in consequence of conduct which he only abstains from then stating on account of the absence of that Member, is unfit to sit on a Committee of this House. A graver charge which one Member could bring against another it is impossible to conceive, and that any man could deem himself fit to sit as a Member of this House who makes such a charge and is not able or willing to substantiate it I cannot entertain. Talk of having had no Notice! Why, what right has a man to make a charge of that kind unless he knows what he is about, and has foundation for the statement which he makes? If a man makes a statement of that kind, he requires no Notice at all. He ought to have all the materials fresh in his recollection before he brings a charge against another Member. What has the hon. Member for Cavan told us? He has told us there is something or other which he cannot recollect, and the words of which are not fixed in his memory—
§ MR. BIGGARI beg leave to ask if the hon. and learned Gentleman is in Order in saying that I stated something which I could not remember. I stated that there were a number of speeches made in this House, and the details of those speeches I could not remember.
§ SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTI say that a man who does not recollect the details upon which a charge of that kind is founded has no right to make it. He ought to know the details, and he ought to be prepared to state them; and when a Gentleman—a Member of this House—comes down two days afterwards, at the earliest moment he can, and calls upon the Member who has made so grievous a charge against him, and receives such an answer as has been given by the hon. Member for Cavan, I think the House will know what judgment and what opinion to form upon the conduct of that hon. Member.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUERI am quite sure, Sir, I need hardly add anything to what has fallen from the hon. and learned. Gentleman opposite; but if the hon. Member for Tralee thinks it worth while, after what has been said, to take further notice of the matter, the House will support him.
§ SIR GEORGE BOWYER rose, but—
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid: I must point out to the House that the proceeding that has now taken place is in the nature of a personal explanation, and any general discussion of the matter would at the present time be out of Order. If the House thinks proper that any notice should be taken of the matter, it should be done in the form of a substantive Motion; but any discussion now would be irregular.
§ SIR GEORGE BOWYERSir, I do not propose to enter into any general discussion on this occasion; but, as I felt it my duty on Saturday last to call the hon. Member for Cavan to Order for the insinuations he had cast against my hon. Friend the Member for Tralee, I must say this, after hearing the explanation of the hon. Member for Cavan, that that explanation appears to me to be totally unsatisfactory. [Cries of "Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKER interposed, but—
§ SIR GEORGE BOWYERI shall move the adjournment of the House. The hon. Member for Cavan stated that the hon. Member for Tralee was not qualified to serve on a Committee because he was not identified with the Irish Party. Well, that I have nothing to say to. But he went on afterwards to say that there were reasons which disqualified the hon. Member for Tralee from serving on a Committee, which reasons he did not choose to state in public. Now, I maintain that in saying that he conveyed a grave charge against the hon. Member for Tralee, almost a worse charge than if it had been specific, because it was an insinuation. I say now that the hon. Member for Cavan ought either to state his charges or withdraw them. I move that this House do now adjourn.
§ There being no Seconder, Question not put.