HC Deb 23 July 1877 vol 235 cc1728-33
MR. MELDON

rose to call attention to the expediency of adopting means to secure better remuneration to the Irish National School Teachers, in accordance with the pledge given in 1874, and to move— That, in the opinion of this House, some means should, without further delay, he found to provide Irish National School Teachers with such remuneration for their services as will secure to them more certain incomes, and less dependent on contingencies than at present, and more commensurate with the services which they perform. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated the circumstances of the case of these teachers, which had been discussed on two previous occasions that Session. He said, that in 1874 certain pledges had been given by the Chief Secretary for Ireland with respect to the salaries of the Irish National Schoolmasters, but the Act of 1875, which was intended to carry out the pledge given in 1874, was admitted to be a failure, and that the scheme set on foot last year failed to secure certainty in the amount of these teachers' incomes. These unfortunate men who were doing such exemplary service to their country never knew at the beginning of the year what their income would be. It was not measured by their own exertions; but it depended upon the will of others whether they received the amount Government intended they should have. They were left at the mercy of the Guardians, and in the present year only 38 Unions were contributory to the salaries of the teachers, and the whole state of things was so unsatisfactory that he could not help thinking the Government would make another attempt to remedy the evil. He did not think that the new system could be permanent, and indeed it was, to a great extent, never intended to last; it had been introduced as an experiment and as a temporary measure. But a year had now passed, and in his judgment some steps ought to be taken to render the position of the teachers more independent. They could not be so at present, for the average salary was hardly £50 a-year, and he trusted that the House would perceive the justice of the cause he advocated. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, some means should, without further delay, be found to provide Irish National School Teachers with such remuneration for their services as will secure to them more certain incomes, and less dependent on contingencies than at present, and more commensurate with the services which they perform,"—(Mr. Meldon,) —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. BRUEN

said, that there was much to recommend the Resolution from the teachers' point of view. They were not in a satisfactory position, and their case deserved the favourable consideration of Parliament. If they wished that the education of the country should be adequately and properly conducted, they should sufficiently pay the men who were engaged in it. That was not the case here, for he found that the average salary of National School Teachers in Ireland was only £50 per annum, and if that was the average he would leave the House to imagine how small must be the minimum. In his opinion it should never be less than £1 per week. But, granting that the salaries at present paid were insufficient, it was difficult to devise means for raising them. The Chief Secretary had, in the year 1875, introduced a measure with that object, and a very large number of Unions had agreed to come under its provisions; but experience had, unfortunately, shown that that did not work satisfactorily, and one by one nearly all the Unions had discarded it; and he feared that the general tendency was not to give an adequate amount of assistance to the teachers. He hoped his right hon. friend the Chief Secretary might be able to give some assurance that he would hold out to the National School Teachers an expectation that their just claims would be considered.

MR. O'REILLY

thought the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Kildare (Mr. Meldon) was entirely fair and just. His hon. and learned Friend's sole object, however, was to improve the condition of the teachers, whereas his (Mr. O'Reilly's) own desire was to improve education in Ireland. If we attained the latter object, we should likewise gain the former; but he entertained a decided opinion that the raising of the salaries of the teachers, irrespective of the amount and quality of teaching given, would, instead of improving education in Ireland, have a directly opposite result. He was strongly in favour of payment by results, and of State aid in proportion to local contributions and results.

MR. RICHARD SMYTH

maintained that it would be a mistake to carry the system of payment by results beyond the point at which it was, and pressed the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland to re-consider the position of the Irish teachers. The Contributory Union Fund had proved a total failure, and if the Government were not prepared to make further provision from the Votes of Parliament, they ought to make some propositions that would remedy the evils which the Act of 1875 had utterly failed to meet. He hoped that Act, now practically a nullity, would be repealed.

MR. CHARLES LEWIS

said, the benefit which it was intended by the Act of 1875 to confer on the teachers in the National Schools in Ireland was defeated by the action of Boards of Guardians and other influences, and the teachers, who ought to be maintained in circumstances of respectability, were reduced every year to go in a cringing way and canvass the Guardians and others to do justice to them, and to obtain for themselves what was actually necessary to keep soul and body together. Beyond that, the payment might be by results, as an inducement to them to persevere in their work. Experience showed that matters were getting worse, and for himself he felt it his duty to vote for the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Kildare.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

thought it must be admitted that the Irish National School Teachers were insufficiently paid, when their remuneration was about on a level with that of the Irish day labourer. The Government would do a popular as well as a wise thing in raising to a moderate extent the salaries of those teachers. They gave to the teachers in England twice the amount of salary that they gave to the Irish teachers. The case of the Irish teachers was a very serious one. Let them consider the grants given for education in the three countries—England, Scotland, and Ireland. The Government, in the last year, gave £600,000 towards education in England; £300,000 to Scotland, with a population of only 3,500,000; and to Ireland, with a population of 5,500,000, only £100,000. The State ought surely to give encouragement to education in Ireland, and especially to the teachers.

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

said, the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Meldon) asked for some increase to the fixed salaries of the National School teachers, but no suggestion had been made by him as to the source from which the funds to carry out that object were to come. He gathered, however, that they were to be derived from Votes of Parliament. Well, he did not regard the present incomes of the teachers as entirely satisfactory, but he had to point out that this was hardly the fault of Parliament, for while the sums voted in 1868, for the payment of teachers, amounted to £270,700, the Votes had gone on increasing year by year till last year they amounted to £530,000. The teaching Staff had, no doubt, increased in numbers in that time, but the increase was very slight. It could not, therefore, be said that Parliament had not done its share in the matter. The real reason why the remuneration of the teachers was so small was that the amount of local contributions and school fees was small. Here too, however, there was an increase from £47,000 in the year 1868 to £108,000 in 1876. But though that increase was going on, the sum received from local contributions and school fees ought to be greater, for he had always felt that other persons besides the Government and Parliament were interested in the improvement of the position of the teachers. He might add that the Government had shown themselves disposed to increase the grants still more, provided the local contributions, which were deficient, were increased. He confessed that he thought it was strange, if there was such a strong feeling in Ireland in favour of popular education, and of better payment of the teachers, as had been represented, that Boards of Guardians, when empowered to contribute to a small extent towards paying the teachers for the results proved to have been attained by them, should in so many cases have been unwilling to vote 1d. or 2d. in the pound for this purpose. The hon. and learned Member for Kildare had on a previous occasion brought before the House the loss caused to the teachers in non-contributing Unions by this refusal on the part of the Guardians; and the Government had consented in such cases to accept local contributions of a certain amount, derived from any source, in lieu of the payment from the rates. The result was greatly to stimulate local efforts on behalf of the schools; for in the Unions affected by the change there had been an increase in voluntary contributions from £7,582 in 1875 to £12,486 in 1876, and in school fees from £23,900 in 1875 to £34,000 in 1876. This was a proof that the incomes of the teachers could be increased from local funds where any real effort was made. He thought that this was the source to which they ought mainly to look for any future improvement in their position, and that if any increase was to be made from funds voted by Parliament, it should take the form of payments for results, rather than that of an addition to the fixed salaries of teachers.

MR. M'CARTHY DOWNING

thought the speech of the right hon. Gentleman would be read in Ireland with very great regret. They were losing the best teachers in Ireland, just as the best men in the Constabulary had also left, in consequence of dissatisfaction with their pay. Though year after year hopes had been held out to the Irish people of assistance in the matter of education, those hopes had not been, and, apparently, were not likely to be, realized. The National School teachers had educated the youth of Ireland, and Ireland, being a poorer country than Scotland and England, might fairly ask for aid for them. He would suggest the advisability of passing a Bill which would make it compulsory for Boards of Guardians to contribute such sums as would raise the salary of the school teachers to a point at which they would be able to maintain themselves and their families.

MR. PARNELL

said, the Government was acting in an extraordinary manner. It was some years since the salaries of the teachers had been admitted to be insufficient, and the measure introduced to increase them had proved a failure. The fact was that Government, instead of attempting to remedy existing and glaring evils, had been pursuing a series of experiments at the expense of the National School teachers and the growing youth of Ireland. This so called national system of education had been carried out without the slightest reference to Irish opinion on the subject.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER

complained that from the first the system of national education in Ireland had been established for Imperial purposes. It was still retained for those purposes, and it was in conflict with the wishes and feelings of the people who were called upon to contribute to its support. He submitted that it was not fair to call upon any section of the people to make contributions for educational purposes, if they gave them no voice in the management of education. Yet that was the condition which the right hon. Baronet laid down before he would promise any State aid for the purpose under consideration. The remedy was one which had already failed, and he wished to know whether the Government had no other resource which they could apply to the satisfactory settlement of this question?

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 110; Noes 73: Majority 37.—(Div. List, No. 246.)

Main Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."