HC Deb 17 July 1877 vol 235 cc1392-404

(1.) £5,176, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, agreed to.

(2.) £1,400, to complete the sum for the National Portrait Gallery, agreed to.

(3.) £9,250, to complete the sum for Learned Societies and Scientific Investigation.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

asked, whether Her Majesty's Government would not consider the propriety of giving a grant in aid of the Scottish Meteorological Society? He said, he should be glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain the position of the negotiations with regard to that Society. The previous Government had indicated that it was desirable that substantial aid should be given to that Society, and since then two Commissions had inquired into the subject, and recommended that a certain amount of aid should be granted. Since then the Government had appointed a Meteorological Council of the Royal Society to superintend the division of the increased Vote of £10,000 for meteorological purposes. As the purposes for which that sum would be expended were almost exclusively for the promotion of science by the production of weather forecasts, if the grant were to be confined entirely to those purposes, the Scottish Society would only receive assistance of the most insignificant character. The inquiries to which the Society had hitherto given attention were of national importance, including such subjects as the effects of the temperature of the sea on the migration of herrings, and the effects of the changes of climate with regard to the mortality of the population. It was a peculiar circumstance with respect to Scotland that the mortality was rather on the increase in that country, while in other parts of the Kingdom it was diminishing. Very important results had been obtained and might be looked for in the future from the inquiries instituted by the Society with regard to the mortality of Scotland, but the Society had not the power of making these inquiries as they desired to do; and, therefore, if the Council of the Royal Society were to be the supreme judges of what ought to be considered matters of national importance, and of what should be the character of the inquiries to be made in Scotland, the Scottish Meteorological Society would be in just as bad a position in future as it had been in the past, notwithstanding the large increase that had been made in the Vote. What he wished to ascertain from the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, whether he would authorize the Council of the Royal Society to apportion certain grants for important national purposes connected with meteorology, and not merely for making observations for weather forecasts and other similar purposes, such as had hitherto been recognized in the apportionment of the grant. He was afraid that unless this were done all the labour and all the representations that had been made by the Society to the Government would have been futile, and the Society would be just as crippled in carrying on inquiries that were of national importance as it had been before. He should like it, therefore, to be understood whether the Treasury intended to give power to the Council of the Royal Society to grant a portion of the Vote for such specific national purposes as those which he had hinted at as engaging the attention of the Scottish Meteorological Society.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that this was a question that naturally excited a great deal of attention, both in the minds of gentlemen connected with Scotland and of those who were interested in scientific investigations. He was not at all disposed to undervalue the services rendered by the Meteorological Society of Scotland; but the Government had to bear in mind that the assistance which Parliament did or could give to scientific investigations must necessarily be limited, and that it was not every good or desirable object for which it would be their duty to propose a Vote to Parliament. He was quite aware that those at the Treasury had continually to show themselves hardhearted, and perhaps they would be thought blind to the interests of science, as they were under the necessity of turning a deaf ear to applications, in themselves worthy of attention, but which if they admitted, they would be obliged to go further than would be justifiable in the way of asking aid from Parliament. It was desirable that the Committee should understand precisely what the nature of the grant was. It had formerly been the habit of the Government, through the Board of Trade, through Her Majesty's ships abroad, and in other ways, to collect meteorological observations, which were considered of value in determining great problems of meteorology. During the time of the late Admiral Fitzroy these observations were carried on partly by the Board of Trade and partly by the Admiralty; but after Admiral Fitzroy's death, it being a considered a questionable proceeding that such inquiries should be conducted by a Government Department, communication took place upon the subject with the Royal Society, and they appointed a council of their members to advise Her Majesty's Government as to the inquiries to be carried on, and to take charge of the administration of such sums as might be provided for the purpose. A special sum of £10,000 was for some years placed at their disposal. An inquiry at length took place as to whether the system could not be improved or modified, and communications were opened with the Scottish Meteoro- logical Society—a private society that was doing good and useful work—and representations were made that encouragement should be given to that Society by the Government. The Government had every desire to recognize the importance and the work of that Society. A Departmental Committee was appointed, with Sir William Stirling-Maxwell as Chairman, who presented a Report, in consequence of which some changes were made in the Meteorological Committee of the Royal Society. It was replaced by a Meteorological Council, not necessarily consisting of Members of the Royal Society, but of gentlemen designated by the Royal Society with the addition ex officio of the Hydrographer to the Admiralty. The Scottish Society was found to have done a good deal of work which was of use to the Government in the prosecution of their inquiries. They had received no remuneration for that work, and £1,000 was recommended and awarded to them, in respect of the past; and as to the future, it would be for the Council to consider how far they could avail themselves of the service of the Scottish Meteorological Society in the conduct of their business, and on what terms that assistance should be rendered. The English Meteorological Society stood on precisely the same footing as the Scotch Society. Then came the question whether there should be a direct grant in aid of the Meteorological Council as a scientific body. They all desired to recognize the claims of scientific bodies to assistance from the national funds; but it was very difficult to draw a line and say where that assistance should begin and where it should end. It was one of the most perplexing questions with which successive Governments had to deal—how national aid could best be given for the promotion of scientific research. All the Treasury could do was fairly to consider the applications brought before them; and looking to the very large amount contributed by the Government to the promotion of science, they could not undertake to extend that assistance in the way desired by the representatives of the Scottish Meteorological Society. There was an impression among some that the Government were indifferent to the interests of Scotland, but that certainly was not the case. The fact was, they were unable to enlarge indefinitely the assistance given to scientific societies. He therefore hoped the Committee would agree to this Vote of £10,000 to the Meteorological Council as now constituted, and would not press them either to weaken the hands of the Council or to add to the sum now proposed to be granted.

MR. M'LAREN

took leave to think that the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was extremely unsatisfactory. There was no denying that there was a tendency in every possible way to keep down grants to Scotland as compared with England. Nothing could be more unfair. An official Return showed the amount of revenue raised in both countries, and if the rule of division were applied it would be found that Scotland paid 9d. per head more than England on all the taxation of the country, and paid three-fourths per head more than Ireland, and yet England and Ireland got large grants, while Scotland got no compensating grants. A sum of £2,000 a-year from the Queen's bounty was cancelled, not by the present, but by the late Government. If Scotland paid more than England and Ireland of taxation in proportion to her population, why should every proposal to give a grant for scientific purposes in Scotland be put down in that way? No doubt, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, they might appeal to the Council of the Royal Society in London; but the right hon. Gentleman very well knew that the Society would not give a shilling of its money to Scotland, as it had not enough for its own purposes. The Scotch Society had about 100 free stations, all working well, to which Scotchmen subscribed £400 or £500 a-year, and if all the parties who worked were paid, the outlay would amount to several thousands a-year. All that labour conduced to the general welfare of the country; for the investigations made were published from time to time, and the Commissioners of Fisheries had been very much indebted to the labours of the Society in Scotland. Now it was very hard that while Scotland contributed its share in every possible way, grants and allowances were screwed down or refused. For example, there was a national museum agreed to be erected in Edinburgh some years ago. Grants for it were received in small instalments for several years, until the present Government came into office. The present Government had promised and promised that it should be completed, but they had stopped the works, and allowed it to stand still. In the same spirit the grants for scientific appliances were, out of all proportion, small for the numbers who visited the museum. He moved for a Return the other day which would throw a good deal of light on the subject of the condition of the Royal Observatory. That institution, although belonging to the Crown, had been very sadly neglected, while large sums were given for similar objects in the sister Kingdoms. He thought that it was generally inexpedient to vote large sums for scientific purposes, unless it were shown that such sums were fairly distributed, and that Scotland, in proportion to its population and taxation, received as many grants as England or Ireland. He thought it was very objectionable to vote this grant without making an equivalent grant to the Scotch Meteorological Society. Every man connected with that Society was a free worker except the Secretary, who was very much under paid. The Society met in Government apartments, but for which a charge was made for rent. The only grant made to Scotland for scientific purposes was £300 a-year, and the Government charge was nearly as much for the apartments used by the Society which received this grant.

MR. RYLANDS

believed there was a great waste in many Public Departments; but he confessed he was not able to charge either the present, or the preceding Government with extravagant expediture in the promotion of scientific research. One important question in the consideration of applications from learned societies for assistance in the pursuit of scientific objects was, whether the end to be attained would benefit the nation? Whenever such cases came before the Government he hoped they would be responded to in the spirit of generosity.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he was gratified to find that, for once, they were in accord with the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands). The hon. Gentleman would shortly have an opportunity of supporting a Supplemental Vote which it was intended to propose for the very object of which he had approved. In their Report the Committee to which reference had been made recommended the further development of inquiries conducted by the Meteorological Council, involving an expenditure of £4,000 a-year, which in the judgment of the Treasury would be a most desirable outlay. The Government had, therefore, full confidence that the House would support the demand which they would make at a later stage. As to the tests that ought to be applied in such cases, special regard ought to be paid to two points. The object to be attained ought to be distinctly national, and not one in which particular individuals or classes were concerned. There ought also to be a definite understanding that, as a proof of their earnestness in the work they proposed to undertake, the Societies themselves should contribute largely towards the object they had in view. He did not think that Parliament ought to be called upon to place in the hands of gentlemen four or five times the amount of the aggregate subscriptions to the society or the association for which aid was sought.

MR. BELL

assented to these conditions, providing they did not tie too tightly the hands of those who had to determine what a national object was. He bore testimany to the great good which might be done by such a Board as that indicated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He hoped the Board would be inaugurated at no distant day.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

said, he might say, in explanation, that he had not suggested or asked for any special Vote for the Meteorological Society of Scotland. All he asked was, that the Government should intimate to the Council of the Royal Society that it was quite within their scope to give power for increased expenditure for national purposes connected with meteorology, such as those he had mentioned—for instance, climatic conditions affecting the herring fisheries, climatic changes affecting the health of the people, &c. He only asked that the Treasury should intimate to the Royal Society that it was within their scope to support such inquiries. If that were not possible, he would throw out a suggestion which he hoped might fructify the fertile soil of the Treasury Bench, and that was that as such inquiries were of supreme importance to Scotland and the Scotch fisheries, and as the Government made large profits from the brand, and were likely to make a peculiarly large profit this year, the Treasury should consider whether they could not allow the Fishery Board to help the Meteorological Society out of the funds which it would acquire from the herring fisheries. If this question were reserved and if a satisfactory case were made out, a Vote could be introduced into the Supplementary Estimates when they were brought in.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he could not undertake to follow the suggestion that had just been made.

MR. M'LAREN

wished to state, lest hon. Members might imagine that the Society was making an unreasonable claim, that the Society approved of all the conditions which the Secretary to the Treasury had laid down—namely, that the money should be for national objects, and no other purpose whatever. With reference to the suggestion that those interested in the Society should themselves contribute liberally, he said that they had contributed liberally for 20 years without receiving a shilling from the Government. All their expenditure had been contributed by themselves, and surely nothing could be more liberal than that. The hon. Gentleman had said that a Society ought not to ask three or four or five times the amount from the Government which it contributed; but that Society was quite content to receive the equivalent of the amount it subscribed, and surely that was not asking three or four times the sum they contributed. The real fact was that because Scotch Members in that House were few in number, and had no Home Rule bond of union, the officials of the Treasury in every possible way pared down allowances and grants to Scotland, whilst in every case of taxation they made Scotland pay to the uttermost farthing.

MR. RAMSAY

said, he was not in the least surprised, that the Secretary to the Treasury should again seek to put the Scotch Members off when they made an application to receive a share of the money which was devoted to meteorological purposes. The discussions that had taken place in past years had clearly shown that they were not asking that the grant to the Royal Society should be reduced; but that the contribution that was made by the Scotch Meteorological Society to science should be recognized by the State as a useful part of the meteorological work done for the benefit of the whole community. The right hon. Member below him (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had suggested that some part of the fund derived from the herring fishery brand should be devoted to the special purpose of making an investigation into isothermal lines, and the influence of that knowledge would, no doubt, be of advantage to the herring fisheries. He considered that they were quite entitled to demand and to get from the Treasury a grant equal to what the Society contributed towards the advancement of meteorological investigation. They had been put off from year to year, and he thought their forbearance ought not to be practised upon too far; because although they had not hitherto fought in the way Irish Members had done to secure their objects, he believed that if the hon. Gentlemen opposite continued to treat them with the indifference they had heretofore met with, they might be driven to fight, and might fight quite as successfully in obstructing Business as their Irish friends. They did not desire to get up a Home Rule agitation; but if Scotland was to be altogether ignored, if they were to continue permanently to be ignored when they advanced claims of that kind, he did not know of anything that could lead more surely to an agitation for Home Rule. He deprecated the treatment they had heretofore received, and hoped that, notwithstanding the statements of the hon. Gentleman, he would be disposed to consider that proposal with greater favour, and to conform to the suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lyon Playfair) when he asked that the Treasury should intimate to the Council of the Royal Society that they had the power to give to other societies some contribution from the sum voted by Parliament for meteorological purposes.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

protested against the doctrine laid down by the hon. Gentleman. These grants could only be given for the sake of services to be rendered to the country, and not according to the population or taxation of any particular part of the Empire. When the Papers connected with this matter were laid on the Table it would be seen that the grants were made for strictly national objects, and that the Committee appointed consisted of Gentlemen thoroughly competent to deal with the question. He could assure the Committee that if the Council recommended that a further extension should be given to meteorological inquiries the Government would consider what could be done to meet the fair claims of Scotland.

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK

said, that the distribution of these grants was entrusted, not to the Royal Society itself, but to a committee of scientific gentlemen suggested by that body. It was in no sense a grant to the Royal Society, and formed no precedent for a grant to any particular Society. He hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would stand firmly by what he had said, and would leave the distribution of the fund in the hands of the Committee. He was sorry to hear the question argued from a local point of view. It was not an English, Scotch, or Irish question. The main point was to see that the money was spent well for the promotion of the interests of the whole nation.

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMRBY

complained that the Government, in the construction of the Meteorological Committee, had, by their letters and instructions, prevented the Committee from giving that assistance to the Scotch Meteorological Society which they ought to have done. He hoped that before the Supplementary Estimates were brought in the Government would see their way to giving greater liberty to the council, so that they might afford assistance to the Scotch Society if they thought desirable.

MR. M'LAGAN

said, that the Vote was already too small, but he should move to reduce it still further unless the claims of Scotland were recognized. In the Report by the Treasury Committee it was stated that the Council to be appointed by the Treasury would have it in its power to give a grant to the Scotch Meteorological Society for its researches. His right hon. Friend below him (Mr. Lyon Playfair) mentioned some of the researches which the Scotch Society had taken in hand, and amongst them there was particularly the investigation as to the effect of the temperature upon the herring fisheries, upon the soil and agriculture, and upon health. Now, he wished to know whether such researches came within the scope of the Meteorological Council? If they had a satisfactory answer to that, and the Council had the power to give the grant, then they would be satisfied; but if they found that the Council had not the power to give the grants, then they must oppose the Vote.

CAPTAIN MILNE HOME

asked the Secretary for the Treasury, Whether there would be a representative from Scotland on the new Council about to be appointed? If the grant was to be national, so ought the Council to be also.

MR. W. H. SMITH

replied, that it would hardly be possible for a representative of the Meteorological Society of Scotland to attend daily, at his own expense, the meetings of the Council in London. The names of the proposed Council would be laid on the Table before the Supplementary Estimate was moved.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £7,970, to complete the sum for the University of London, agreed to.

(5.) £3,000, to complete the sum for the Deep Sea Exploring Expedition, agreed to.

(6.) £9,200, to complete the sum for the Paris International Exhibition.

MR. GOLDSMID

inquired, Whether it was likely that the total Estimate of £50,000 would be exceeded, and on what principle England and other countries exhibiting had been required to provide architectural fronts to the spaces allotted to them?

MR. SERJEANT SPINES

asked, Whether the Government would make any representations to the French Government to obtain more space for English exhibitors? One of his constituents, who intended to exhibit spinning machinery, had been shut out from doing so by having made his application through an agent and not in his own name, and when he repeated the application the whole space was already allotted. He had reason to believe that many other persons were in the same position.

MR. BELL

said, that the number of square feet assigned by the Directors of the Paris Exhibition to English exhibitors was 56,000, and the Royal Commission had received applications for over 150,000 feet, the applications from the manufacturers alone amounting to nearly the whole of the space assigned.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

, as Chairman of the Finance Committee of the Commission, wished to say that the sum of £50,000 was, in comparison with previous Exhibitions, a small amount; but by the care and attention which had been given to the whole subject by the Royal President of the Commission, and by the assistance which they had received from the representatives of various branches of industry, they hoped that, in spite of the architectural fronts, England would be exceedingly well represented without any increase upon the Estimate. This would not have been possible had it not been for the great zeal and liberality with which many exhibitors had come to the aid of the Commissioners. There was every reason to suppose that with £50,000 they would be able to make this the best Exhibition England had ever given in any foreign country. It was a matter of deep regret that the eminent manufacturer referred by the hon. and learned Member for Oldham (Mr. Serjeant Spinks) had not received space; but it was owing to a technical error of the manufacturer himself in not sending in his name. They had received from the French authorities for more space than they originally intended to allocate to England. There were some nations to whom space had been given who would not exhibit, and perhaps, therefore, some more space might be obtained for British exhibitors.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

observed that when the proposal was first submitted to the Government to ask Parliament for a grant in aid of the Paris Exhibition, the Treasury decided that a grant not exceeding £50,000 should be applied for. A Royal Commission, of which His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was President, was appointed, and several Members of the Government, of whom he was himself one, were on the Commission. At that Commission it was proposed by His Royal Highness, who had taken a deep and personal interest in the management of the whole business, that a Finance Committee should be appointed, with considerable power of checking the whole expenditure. His Royal Highness did him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the honour of suggesting that he should be Chairman of that Committee; but he felt that it was better, as a Member of the Government, that he should not be a Member of that Committee, and that the Treasury should restrict themselves to the function of keeping the Commission within the bounds of the Vote. His right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had been appointed Chairman of the Finance Committee, and had been efficiently and assiduously discharging his duties.

Vote agreed to

(7.) £2,072, to complete the sum for the Board of Education, Scotland, agreed to.

(8.) £13,964, to complete the sum for Universities, &c., in Scotland, agreed to.

(9.) £1,500, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c., Scotland, agreed to.

(10.) £440, to complete the sum for the Commissioners of Education (Endowed Schools), Ireland, agreed to.

(11.) £1,789, to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland, agreed to.

(12.) £3,494, to complete the sum for the Queen's University, Ireland, agreed to.

(13.) £9,404, to complete the sum for Queen's Colleges, Ireland, agreed to.