HC Deb 13 July 1877 vol 235 cc1278-85

(1.) £4,476, to complete the sum for the Public Record Office, Ireland.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £21,995, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works in Ireland.

CAPTAIN O'BEIRNE

severely criticized the constitution and duties of the Board, commenting upon such works as the drainage of the Shannon and the Ulster Canal. The former had been in contemplation, but had made no progress, for the last 43 years. The salaries of the officials were extravagant, and the work of the Board was most inefficiently carried out. He would move to reduce the amount of the Vote by £9,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £ 12,995, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works in Ireland."— (Captain O'Beirne.)

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

repeated the offer he had made on a former occasion to bring any reasonable proposals respecting the Ulster Canal under the notice of the Treasury. It was a mistake to suppose that the management of the Irish Board of Works was inefficient or the salaries extravagant. As to the drainage of the Shannon, the subject had been repeatedly discussed in that House, and the Government had done their best to promote the work by passing an Act under the operation of which the Treasury had power to contribute half the cost, or a sum of £150,000 for the purpose. It was owing, he might add, to the action of the proprietors, who refused to contribute their share, that the Act had become inoperative.

THE O'CONOR DON,

without referring to special works, such as the Shannon drainage, the Ulster or Ballinamore Canal, could vouch for the general dissatisfaction existing as to the state of the Board of Works. Within the last few days, before the Committee upon the subject, there had been evidence showing the extraordinary way in which business was carried on by this so-called Board.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, it was not in Order to refer to proceedings before Committees still sitting.

THE O'CONOR DON

But the Committee had reported, and, therefore, he was justified in his reference. Before the Committee was evidence showing that there was no such thing as a Board of Works in Dublin. It was admitted that they never met except to receive deputations. There were no Minutes kept, and things were carried on in a most hap-hazard way. The real Board consisted of the Secretary, and even the Commissioners did not know how the business was conducted. Another thing in connection with this Board was the amount of charge made whenever they were applied to to inspect any proposal for carrying out public works in any part of the country. An engineer sent down to any place was the occasion of three guineas a-day for his services, and, in addition, the public paid for his salary and superannuation. It would be most advantageous if the Chief Secretary would look into the constitution of the Board, and see how it could be improved.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

thought the answer of the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary was rather unfortunate. He understood the right hon. Baronet to say that he was perfectly satisfied with the constitution of the Board. [Sir Michael HICKS-BEACH: No!] He was glad to hear that admission, because, in his opinion, no one could justify its constitution. The Act of Parliament required that there should be three Commissioners of Works; but, at the present time, to carry out the Act, it was necessary to have some aid in consequence of the age of one of the Commissioners. This gentleman was nearly 90 years old, and he lived in England. The Government, nevertheless, retained him upon the Board, and assistance was provided in the shape of an Assistant Commissioner, who ought in reality to be one of the three Commissioners, the aged Commissioner drawing no salary on account of the Board of Works, but instead thereof he received £1,500 as Commissioner of Valuation. The Assistant Commissioner only received—until the present year, when it was raised to £1,000—a miserable salary of £800 a-year, and he was one of the most distinguished drainage engineers in Ireland. But instead of being put to his proper work he was placed at the head of the Architectural Department, and occupied in designs for schools, barracks, and teachers' residences. The whole constitution of the Board was unjustifiable, and the Commissioner should not be retained merely to gratify his personal feelings. True, it might be said he drew no salary, but a Commissioner should be appointed who could do his work, and was worthy of his salary.

MR. GOLDSMID

remarked that hon. Members who represented Ireland were not very often eager to reduce the amount of money to be spent in that country, and he hoped that in this in- stance the Government would take them at their word, when they proposed what appeared to him to be so reasonable an economy.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, that if Irish Members desired economy, it was because the money which it was often proposed to spend did more harm than good. There was no objection to expenditure sensibly directed; but the expenditure by the Board of Works was extravagant and useless. But if the Government were anxious to spend the £9,000, they might very well lay it out in improving the drainage of the Shannon Valley, where much money had been wasted, and many engineering mistakes made. He would call attention to the failure of the Shannon Improvement Act which the Government passed three Sessions since, contemptuously rejecting sensible practical Amendments proposed by local Irish Members fully competent to form an opinion as to the best course that ought to be pursued in carrying out such works, and would suggest the question should be left to an Irish Committee selected from Members who would represent the interests of those who required the river kept up for navigation, as well as those who required the water of the country carried off.

MR. SERJEANT SHERLOCK

said, he was not at all clear that Irish Members would come to any unanimous opinion respecting the Shannon Valley, though, no doubt, they would all agree in thinking that money might be spent there very usefully. He would call the attention of the Committee to the enormous amount charged by the Office of Works for travelling expenses. There were £2,200 charged this year, and last year it was £2,000. That matter required the serious attention of the Government.

MR. W. H. SMITH,

as the Representative of the Treasury, could say that the Government would gladly accept any Motion for the reduction of expenses, if only they thought it practicable and conducive to efficiency; but that was not the case with the Motion before the Committee. Some few of the remarks directed against the Office of Works were, perhaps, a little unfair, as the charges complained of with regard to drainage were determined by Act of Parliament, so that objection should be taken to the Act rather than to the authorities. He might mention that the Commis- sioner referred to by the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry) received no salary, though he was entitled to a full retiring pension. He would admit there was something calling for inquiry, and having conferred with his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland, he was prepared to undertake that an inquiry should be made into the constitution of the Office. He must observe, however, that the remarks of the hon. Member for Galway went in the direction, not of a reduction, but of an increase of the cost. With reference to the item of travelling expenses, it should be remembered that the Office of Works had to examine, maintain, and keep in repair all the public buildings in Ireland, 1,237 in number, to receive all applications for arterial drainage, to maintain harbours, to look to the construction of fishery piers, and do a variety of other business. Through it large amounts of public money were advanced, requiring beforehand the most careful inquiry. Though he could not himself account for every farthing of this expenditure, he was prepared to say that it had been most carefully audited. But that was one of the points which would be inquired into by the Committee appointed to examine the constitution of the Board. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan) had revived the old story of the drainage of the Shannon. He (Mr. Smith) must observe that the Bill on the subject had been pressed on the House by local opinion, and no sooner was it passed than a number of proprietors not only refused to contribute, but advanced claims for compensation if the floods were stopped. Again, some persons maintained that the navigation of the river should be carefully preserved; while others contended that the navigation was of no consequence whatever, and that it was the drainage which ought to be attended to. The hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don) had complained that the Board did not meet. There were very few Boards in the Public Service that did meet, and amongst them was the Board of Admiralty. In other Boards, under the direction of the Chairman, the business was most carefully assigned, and the several Commissioners consulted together, but formal and regular meet- ings of Boards so called were not held. Indeed, the expression "meeting of the Board" was not a good one. In the case under discussion the Chairman was, he believed, a most efficient public servant, and the duties were performed in a way conducive to the public interest. But that also would be a fit subject of inquiry by the Committee.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

could not support the Motion for the reduction of the Vote, and he hoped his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain O'Beirne) would withdraw it. The Committee had a distinct promise from the Government that the constitution of the Board of Works would be inquired into, and he knew whatever his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury undertook, he would diligently perform.

THE O'CONOR DON

also asked his hon. and gallant Friend not to press the reduction of the Vote.

CAPTAIN O'BEIRNE

said, that as the Government had given a full and frank promise of inquiry into the constitution of the Board of Works in Ireland he should withdraw his Amendment.

MR. RAMSAY

suggested that the Committee of Inquiry into the constitution of the Board of Works should inquire into the efficiency and necessity for maintaining the various other public Departments in Ireland, so that the House might obtain trustworthy information on the subject. He also wished to suggest that the Committee should not be composed exclusively of Irish Members, so that the inquiry might be impartial. He believed, if a thorough inquiry were made, it would do away with constant complaints as to the way in which the affairs of Ireland were conducted.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, one of their grievances was that there was not sufficient Irishmen on these Commissions. He therefore hoped they would be adequately represented on the Commission or Committee which the Government would appoint.

MR. CALLAN

said, the greatest obstructives in Ireland were the officials of the Board of Works. They always endeavoured to see how not to do it. If any inquiry were to be instituted, he trusted the Commission would not include either Mr. Lingen, or "that nuisance in Ireland," Mr. Herbert Murray.

MR. MELDON

expressed a hope that the inquiry would not be limited to the Board of Works, but that it would be applied to the Local Government Board, and similar offices as well. A few months ago he saw a body of Scotch soldiers in the Four Courts, and next day a corps of Welsh soldiers, headed not by a non-commissioned officer, but by Mr. Herbert Murray; and on making inquiries he learnt that these soldiers had been told off to examine some coal that was supposed not to have been supplied according to contract. The Scotch soldiers declared that the bad coals were not Scotch coal, and the Welsh soldiers gave their opinion that they were not Welsh coal, which they ought to have been. The coal was left there, as that point could not be determined, and that was the way in which Mr. Herbert Murray managed his Department.

MR. BIGGAR

said, the Board of Works never had any Minutes of their proceedings, and he thought that the system should be revised. Several of the officials had sinecures, and it was well that they should be abolished. Then the Board of Public Works was thoroughly inefficient, and they certainly made a mess of their business altogether. All the expense of draining the Shannon had resulted in nothing, simply owing to the inefficiency of these officials, and then again the Ballinamore Canal was another monument to their inefficiency.

MR. GRAY

said, the head and front of Mr. Herbert Murray's offence was that he was a very zealous official of the Treasury. He was, therefore, perhaps one of the most unpopular men in Ireland. Mr. Murray came over from the Treasury to investigate the position of the Government officials in Dublin with a view to a reduction, and he had reported to the Government in that direction. In fact Mr. Murray was carrying out what the Irish Members were advocating in that House. Mr. Murray held a very invidious position, and he had done his work well, and certainly did not deserve any obloquy for the way in which he had done his duty. With regard to the Board of Public Works, he repeated that they had a sham Board, for it was absolutely impossible to fix responsibility on any one. The right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary had told them that he answered according to the best of his information; and, in fact, the way the business was managed it was impossible for the right hon. Ba- ronet to answer otherwise than to give a general assurance that everything was being done for the best. He trusted, if they were to have an investigation, that it would be of such a character as to command the confidence of the public.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he could give the assurance of the Chief Secretary and his own that the Commission would be so constituted as to thoroughly secure the confidence of the people of Ireland.

MR. PARNELL

asked, whether the Commission would consist of Gentleman in the permanent pay of the Government?

MR. W. H. SMITH

replied that it was impossible to say, within half-an-hour of giving the undertaking for the Commission, as to how it should be constituted.

MR. RAMSAY

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will consider whether it may not be extended to other Departments.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) £12,279, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Department, &c, Ireland.

(4.) £15,808, to complete the sum for the General Survey and Valuation, Ireland.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

asked, if the Board would carry on the valuation of Ireland, and if it would adopt the scale of prices scheduled in the Bill?

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

replied that the question of the new valuation had better be discussed when the Valuation Bill was taken. If the Valuation Bill became law, the new valuation would be based on a scale framed from the market price in various parts of Ireland.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

Will this Department carry on the valuation, and will there be an extra Vote not included in this Vote?

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH

Yes.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £61,100, to complete the sum for Pauper Lunatics, Ireland, agreed to.