HC Deb 21 March 1876 vol 228 cc353-71
MR. RITCHIE,

in rising to move that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the constitution, efficiency, emoluments, and finances of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, observed, that the subject to which his Motion related was one of considerable interest and importance to the metropolis, and he should proceed now to state the grounds upon which he had ventured to direct the attention of the House to it. He did not bring his Motion forward in any hostile spirit to the Metropolitan Board of Works, which was the most important body of its kind in the Kingdom, and which certainly attended with great care to the numerous and important duties entrusted to it; at the same time, he would have to criticise adversely the management of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade. He would also have to call attention to some complaints which the men of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade had to urge with regard to their position. No one who had witnessed a great conflagration in the metropolis could have failed to witness the great bravery displayed by the men of the Brigade in the execution of their dangerous labours. Still, it was an important question whether the conditions under which they performed their duties were the best calculated to secure the thorough efficiency of the body. The point to which he wished particularly to direct attention was whether the Brigade was efficient in numerical strength, and he had done everything in his power to obtain correct information on that head. He should have much liked to have an interview on this subject with Captain Shaw; but his application for one was refused, no doubt for weighty reasons. Formerly the charge of protecting property in the metropolis from fire was undertaken by the London Fire Insurance Offices, which in 1862 first began to remonstrate against the arduous and onerous duties thus imposed upon them, and it was considered that such duties ought not to be allowed to devolve upon any private company. In that year and later considerable correspondence passed between them and the Home Office as to what should be done in the event of their giving up the charge of the Brigade. In 1862 a Committee appointed to investigate the matter recommended that a new Brigade should be formed under the Metropolitan Police Force, and be co-extensive with the metropolitan area, and it was further recommended that the existing staff should be utilized. In 1865 the Home Secretary requested Captain Shaw, the able head of the Brigade, to supply him with an estimate of what would be a proper and efficient Brigade. It should be borne in mind that the area which the old Brigade had under its charge covered only 10 square miles. The area covered by the Metropolitan Board was 120 square miles. Captain Shaw made out a careful estimate, in which he said that, taking into account the then condition of the metropolis in regard to population, area, and buildings, he considered that one Chief and 574 officers and men, at a cost of £70,000, would be an efficient force for the protection of property valued at £900,000,000 from the ravages of fire. The estimate thus stated by Captain Shaw was confirmed by evidence taken before the Committee; but it seemed to have greatly alarmed the Home Office, and the Secretary of State stated that if the annual cost could not be reduced to something like £50,000, he was afraid the whole affair must fall to the ground. Captain Shaw thereupon framed another estimate, which provided for 416 officers and men at a cost of £52,000. But the Home Office stuck even at that, and said they had asked for an estimate for £50,000. Captain Shaw accordingly sent in a third estimate, providing for 350 officers and men, at a cost of £50,000. Although he was by no means prepared to admit that the cutting down of the estimate was for the interest of the metropolitan ratepayers, yet he was prepared to base his remarks on Captain Shaw's last estimate for 350 officers and men at £50,000. That estimate was prepared by Captain Shaw with a due regard to the state of things existing at that time, and he expressed his opinion that the Brigade ought to be expanded when expansion became necessary. In 1865 the population within the metropolitan area was 3,000,000; in 1876 it was 3,500,000, or rather 4,000,000, as he was reminded by an hon. Member near him. There was thus an increase of 17 per cent. The number of houses had also increased in the same proportion. In 1865 their number was 383,856, and in 1876 it was 450,000. The Home Office declined to let the Brigade be under the metropolitan police, though the late Sir Richard Mayne was strongly in favour of that course, and they had evidence that it was an economical one. A Bill was brought in transferring to the Metropolitan Board the duty of protecting life and property from fire. That Bill provided that the money should be raised in three ways; first, by a rate of a halfpenny in the pound; secondly, by a contribution of £10,000 from the Government; and thirdly, by a contribution of £35 for every £1,000,000 insured by the Fire Offices. Of course, the Metropolitan Board desired to take over the men who had worked so efficiently under the old system. Captain Shaw said there would be no difficulty about that, and that the only matter on which the officers and men desired information before joining the new force was the subject of superannuation, including the mode in which it was proposed to provide for the widows of men killed while on duty. A Committee of the Metropolitan Board, appointed to consider this matter, reported that, in the event of a man being killed while in the discharge of his duty, his widow should receive an annuity, to be continued during the pleasure of the Board; and with regard to the superannuation fund, they reported that it ought to be continued, the men of all classes paying at the rate of 6d. per week. The Board approved the resolutions of the Committee. Under these circumstances, the men expressed themselves satisfied and came over to the new Brigade. Now, what was the present force of the Fire Brigade, and how did it compare with the lowest estimate made by Captain Shaw? In 1875, the number of firemen of all ranks available for duty was 395. Captain Shaw's minimum was 350, but at that time the fire-escapes were in charge of a charitable organization. Since then—in 1867—the Metropolitan Board had taken over the fire-escapes, of which there were 106, each requiring one man. Deducting 106 from 395, there was left an available force of only 289, or 61 fewer than Captain Shaw's minimum—equal to a decrease of 20 per cent, though the population and houses within the district of the Board had increased 17 per cent. But the 395 men were only nominally available. Deducting men who were sick and on leave, the number actually available for night duty was only 164, to attend to an area of 120 square miles. The stations were certainly more numerous, but the number of men available was not greater now than it was under the old system. The London Fire Brigade had 90 men available at night, and at the parish stations there were 85, making 175. Meanwhile, the number of fires had increased from 1,338 to 1,559, or 17 per cent, the population and houses having increased in the same ratio. The 164 men were thus disposed:—35 in the Western district, 53 in the Central, 42 in the Southern, and 34 in the Eastern district. But the Chief of the Salvage Corps stated to the Committee on this subject that there were more fires in the East of London than in all the other districts put together, but there were positively fewer men available in that district than in any other. The risks there were certainly much greater. Yet in his own borough, the Tower Hamlets, containing all the docks and warehouses, and with a population of 400,000, only 20 men were available at night. The result was that the stations there were sometimes denuded of men. At Bow station there were five men, of whom two had to go out with fire-escapes and one had to remain on duty at the station to attend to the telegraphing and keep up communication with other stations. Thus only two men were available in case of fire, and that only if neither was unwell; and on a recent occasion it became necessary to take away every available man and close the station altogether. At Holborn, again, there were nine men, with three escapes; and as three of the men had been unwell, only two out of the nine had been available at night for fire duty during the last two months. It was hardly possible for the Brigade in this attenuated form to cope with even one large fire; but if two large fires occurred at the same time, it would be impossible to cope with them as they ought to be. When the City Flour Mill was burnt, 196 men were engaged. At Rimmel's fire there were 121, leaving about 40 or 50 men available for all the rest of London. At the Pantechnicon 120 men were engaged, and at the same time 177 were required at other fires and for other duty. With so heavy a responsibility resting upon him, it was natural that Captain Shaw should make some remonstrance. He had done so more than once. In 1872 he gave an estimate of the number of men who were required for the protection of London. His estimate was 931 men, at a cost of £120,000. Surely, if the Metropolitan Board had thought this an excessive estimate, they might have adopted a more moderate one. This, however, they had not done. It was interesting to compare the number of men employed in London with the number employed for the protection of some Continental towns. It was true that on the Continent these men were engaged to some extent in other duties; but the comparison was still a startling one, for in Hamburg 1,000 men were thus employed, in Paris 1,572, and in St. Petersburg 1,164. One consequence of the small number of men here was that the men themselves were greatly overworked. One man had been worked 10 successive nights. To be engaged for three days and nights in succession was no uncommon thing. One letter he had received stated that the writer had been on duty for 39½ hours at one time; another man said he had been off duty only seven hours out of 78. Many Bills had been brought into that House at different times to shorten the hours of labour, and if the present state of things was to go on it would be necessary to introduce a Bill to shorten the hours of duty of the Fire Brigade. Not only was the present arrangement injurious to the public interest, but it entailed an enormous amount of sickness in the men themselves. There had been 339 cases of illness during the last year, four terminating in death, so that almost every man in the Fire Brigade had been compelled to come under the doctor's hands. It might be said that the men undertook those duties knowing their liability to sickness, but looked at the prospect of superannuation, and in the event of their being killed that under an Act of Parliament and a resolution of the Board their families would be provided for. But the Metropolitan Board had done absolutely nothing in the way of providing any superannuation or pension scheme. In 1875, after the men had incessantly asked for a pension scheme, one was taken in hand, but so thoroughly inadequate was it that it was at once rejected by them. A Petition on the subject was presented to the Board in February, 1874, but the Board was not prepared with a scheme, and since then several men had broken down or had left without a pension. It was true a plan had been submitted to the men which provided superannuation, but only out of funds contributed by themselves. The men would not accept that, though, as far as he knew, they did not want the Board to find the money altogether. They would be willing to contribute a portion, and they would be delighted if some arrangement should be made for them similar to that which had been established for that excellently managed body the Salvage Corps. He did not want to do any injustice to the Metropolitan Board for what they had done in the way of superannuations, pensions, and awards, but he wished to call attention to three or four cases which had occurred. Charles Liddle, after a service of seven years and six months, died from consumption, to which the men were peculiarly liable from the wettings to which they were exposed, and all that was given to his family was £5. Joseph Parker, after serving 30 years and 10 months was discharged from ill-health, and provided for with the miserable dole of 14s. a-week. George Ray suffered amputation of a leg from an injury received in the discharge of his duty, and received £10, showing the value placed upon a leg by the Metropolitan Board of Works. To the family of another, who had died from injuries received in the execution of his duty, the Board gave £29 16s. There were other cases in which the Board awards varied from £20 to four guineas. But whatever the amount given in each particular case, it would tend very much to the efficiency of the service if it were given according to some regular and not merely arbitrary method. That was what the Board had undertaken to do, and what they had never yet done. His hon. and gallant Friend would no doubt tell him that the Board had the subject now under their consideration; but it had been under their consideration a long time, and this Motion might have had something to do with it. Another question ought to be considered—were the men content to remain in the service of the Board under the existing state of things? He believed that already 637 had voluntarily left the Brigade, and no fewer than eight had gone away during the last month. He calculated the cost of training each man at £100, so that here was an absolute loss of something like £63,700. He was told that the Board had the greatest difficulty in keeping up the establishment, and that for some time the number of men was considerably below the proper strength, although they had raised the age of admission from 25 to 30 years. They were now obliged to advertize in The Morning Advertiser for men, when, according to Mr. Phillips, chairman of the Fire Brigade Committee, there used to be as many as 1,000 sailors on the list seeking for employment; but that list had disappeared. Under the old system there was quite a competition to get into the Brigade, as was still the case with the Salvage Corps. The question was how this state of things should be remedied. As regarded the men, there ought to be a proper scheme of pensions and a proper superannuation fund, as in the case of the Metropolitan Police and the London Salvage Corps. Then there should be an increase in the number of men. The extra duties laid on the men in 1867 should be taken off, a separate body of men under the same administration having the sole charge of fire-escapes by night, and who should not be required to do station duty by day. If the staff were increased by 106 men for the fire-escapes on the understanding that they should not be required for other duty, the strain would not be so great upon the men, and life and property in London would be more secure. Another point came out very strongly in the Committee of 1867—the defective water supply. The greatest importance attached to water being immediately available when a fire broke out. Captain Shaw's Report stated that there had been 32 cases in London last year in which the water arrangements were unsatisfactory. One great reason was that the turncock was often not to be found when wanted. The Water Companies had made an offer to pay the cost of housing a turncock at each Fire Brigade Station to procure water; but no notice had been taken of that offer by the Metropolitan Board. Even if the fire-plug could be found, it was often difficult to turn the water on; the water arrangements were complicated and required the presence of a turncock. About two years ago there was a fire at the house of Mr. Murrieta, at Kensington, at which there was a great destruction of valuable pictures. The engines were early in arrival, but had to wait three-quarters of an hour before the turncock arrived to turn on the water. In another case, in Bishopsgate Street, close to the fire station, the engines waited 20 minutes before the turncock could be found. Another question which might well occupy the attention of the Committee was the imperfect character of the telegraphic communication. There ought to be telegraphic communication between all police stations and all fire stations. This would tend very much to diminish the number of serious fires, and to extinguish them before they reached any great height. At present, if a fire occurred at Stratford, the policeman who discovered it would telegraph it to his district station, wherever that might be; the district station would telegraph to Scotland Yard, Scotland Yard would telegraph to Watling Street, and Watling Street to Bow, which was about a mile from the fire, and the firemen at Bow would go to the fire. Another point to be inquired into was the amount of money spent on the Fire Brigade. In 1867, Captain Shaw estimated the cost at £50,000; and allowing £10,000 more for increase of wages and the additional men, it brought it up to £60,000; but the real sum spent last year was £75,000, an increase of £15,000 a-year over the estimate. He had now to thank the House for the kind indulgence they had extended to him, and he begged to move the appointment of the Committee.

MR. BOORD

seconded the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the constitution, efficiency, emoluments, and finances of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade."—(Mr. Ritchie.)

SIR JAMES HOGG

said, he hoped the House would kindly accord to him the same indulgence which had been extended to his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets. His hon. Friend had broughta long and terrible indictment against the management of the Fire Brigade under the Metropolitan Board of Works. He felt sure that his aim was the same as that of the Metropolitan Board—that the Fire Brigade should be kept up in a state of efficiency, to secure, as far as possible, life and property from danger by fire. The inquiry which his hon. Friend desired had reference to "the constitution, efficiency, emoluments, and finances" of the Fire Brigade. With regard to the constitution of the Fire Brigade, no doubt the House was aware that it was constituted by the Act of 1865, which transferred the Brigade from the Insurance Companies to the Metropolitan Board. It now consisted of 396 officers and men, who were most carefully selected and trained for the work. They were distributed into four districts and 49 stations. There were four river stations with powerful floating engines, and 106 Fire Escape stations about half a mile apart only. Prior to 1866 the Insurance Companies undertook this duty, and they had only 17 stations, which were principally situated in the centre of the metropolis, where the most valuable property was. Comparing 1866 with 1876, he would show what was the condition of the Fire Brigade 10 years ago and at present. In 1866 there were only 130 officers and men; now there were 396. In 1866 there were only 17 engine stations; now there were 49. There were in 1866 only two river stations (floats); now there were four. In 1866 there were nine steam engines (land); now there were 26. Formerly there were 27 manual engines; now there were 85. The fire-escapes in 1866 numbered 85; now they numbered 132. It was therefore clear that there had been a considerable advance under each head. With regard to efficiency, it must be admitted that it was not in the power of any Fire Brigade to prevent fires; all they could do practically was to extinguish them. The reports of Captain Shaw showed that there was a great diminution in the number of serious fires. Of a total of 1,338 in 1866, 326, or 25 per cent, were serious, and 1,012, or 75 per cent, were slight. In 1871, of a total of 1,842 fires, 207, or 11 percent, were serious, and 1,635, or 89 percent, were slight. In 1875, of 1,529 fires, 163, or 11 per cent, were serious, and 1,366, or 89 per cent, were slight. As to the manner in which the officers and men discharged their duties, they carried their lives in their hands, and that they never shrank from incurring personal danger was shown by the occurrence of 64 casualties in 1875. Of 109 persons whose lives had been placed in jeopardy, 80 had been rescued, and of the 29 who lost their lives most were persons whose clothes caught fire in the house. Here, in passing, he must express his strong objection to the proposal of the hon. Gentleman to separate the escape men from the Fire Brigade. It was much better to have all the men trained sufficiently for every service they could possibly be employed in. With regard to the question of pay, that of the chief officer was first £500, then £750, and now £1,000; the four superintendents received altogether—first £480, then £730, and now £800. The 13 first-class engineers cost—first £1,267, then £1,438, and now 30 cost £3,822; the weekly pay having been raised from 37s. 6d. to 42s., and then to 49s. There were now 30 second-class engineers at 42s., 60 first-class firemen at 35s., 60 second-class firemen at 31s. 6d., 100 third-class firemen at 28s., and 112 fourth-class firemen at 24s. 6d. The increase in wages from £11,871 in 1866 to £33,686 in 1876 was certainly not an inconsiderable one. There was now, as in the old Fire Brigade, a fireman's savings' fund; each man had 6d. a week stopped on his pay, and if he chose to leave the force the amount that had been stopped was returned to him. There was no system of pensions; each case was dealt with on its merits; and a case had occurred in which a young man, who had been two or three years in the service, had been injured for life and had been awarded a pension of 10s. a week. In the only case of a man who had left a widow, before the Board had time to act a sum of about £2,000 was subscribed for the widow, who was then practically placed in as good a position as she occupied during her husband's lifetime; and, under the circumstances, it did not seem to the Board that they were called upon to make any further allowance. As to the strength of the Brigade, it consisted of four superintendents, 30 first-class engineers, 30 second-class engineers, 60 first-class firemen, 60 second-class firemen, 100 third-class firemen, and 112 fourth-class firemen; and that force had been found sufficient to cope with any conflagration. He had offered his hon. Friend that if he would put on paper any information he wished for his requirements should be submitted to the Fire Brigade Committee; and he did not think that an hon. Member who was about to bring such a question before the House of Commons ought to ask for a private interview with an officer. He believed the stations were very fairly distributed over the whole metropolis, though, of course, they were closer together in dense neighbourhoods, while an admirable telegraph system facilitated concentration in the suburbs. The time allowed for the men and engines to turn out was, generally speaking, only about three minutes, and on the occurrence of great fires there were never any complaints that men and engines did not arrive in good time. A man might have been on duty 10 successive nights, just as he himself had been on duty in the Army continuously for 15 days running; but in a fire-escape sentry-box a man could rest comfortably until he was aroused by an alarm of fire. Another strong point made by the hon. Member was that more engines, more men, and more stations were wanted; but they could not get more men without more pay; and it was impossible with a halfpenny rate—which was all the Metropolitan Board was allowed to levy—to do more than they had done. The income of the Brigade applicable to working expenses in 1875 was as follows:—Government contribution, £10,000; Insurance Companies' contributions, £18,093; the halfpenny rate, £43,514, making a total of £71,607. His hon. Friend had alluded to Captain Shaw's estimate for the cost of the Brigade in 1864, which was £70,000 per annum for a larger force than was now maintained, and, as he said, on a less efficient basis. A great increase had, however, since occurred in prices, and Captain Shaw's estimate did not include the present cost of saving life from fire, which was about £12,000. Captain Shaw estimated the cost of coal at £1,500 per annum, while the estimate for coal in 1876 was £3,300. The telegraphs were estimated by him at £500 per annum, while the present cost was £1,450. The horse-hire considerably exceeded his estimate, and the total increase in these items and in wages in 1876, as compared with 1864, was between £17,000 and £18,000. There was one important question alluded to by the hon. Member to which he must refer—that was the question of the water supply. At present it would be impossible for him to do full justice to the subject. It was one of the most important character, and one which had engaged the attention of the Metropolitan Board of Works for a very long time. Hydrants, constant supply, and other such points had been under careful consideration, and, with the view of seeing what could be done in the metropolis, a committee was sent down to Manchester and Liverpool to make inquiry. The result was the conclusion was arrived at that under the existing system of water supply in London it would be perfectly impossible to make use of the hydrant system. The engineer of the Board had examined all the districts of the metropolis by day and night, and made a most careful inspection of the water supply. That examination satisfied the Board that, both as regarded constant supply and pressure, in hardly any instance would hydrants be of any use in extinguishing fires. The great drawback was the intermittent nature of the supply. Possibly enough in some districts a sufficiency of pressure could be obtained to carry the water up to the second or third storey, but it would only last for a few moments, and success could not be looked for under such circumstances. Another matter alluded to by the hon. Gentleman was that the water companies had offered to supply the Metropolitan Board with turncocks, to be stationed at the Fire Brigade stations. But the Board had not accepted the offer, partly because the stations were too small to give accommodation to the turncocks, and partly because each man of the Brigade had keys and could turn the water on. The difficulty was in not knowing what particular main to turn on, because the pressure might be "on" in one district and not in another. It had been said that at several great fires no water could be had, and the fire at Mr. Murrieta's, in Kensington Gardens, had been mentioned. That such a want of water ever occurred was news to him; but, as a general rule, when these complaints came to be investigated the case turned out to be not so bad as was represented. With regard to the constitution and efficiency of the Fire Brigade, the Metropolitan Board of Works had nothing to hide, and if the Government and the House should think an inquiry by a Committee desirable, he, for one, should enter upon such an inquiry with the desire on the part of the Metropolitan Board of Works to give every possible information and facility to the Committee.

SIR WILLIAM FRASER

hoped the House would consent to the appointment of the Committee. He did not think the hon. and gallant Member for Truro had made out any case in opposition to the proposal. The simple fact that for the whole metropolis of 4,000,000 inhabitants there were only 395 firemen, including those who, from sickness and other causes, were unable to do their duty, itself demanded inquiry. No victorious army ever earned the thanks of this House more hardly than the London Fire Brigade. A French general once said—"The English Infantry is the finest in the world; fortunately there are very few of them!" The Metropolitan Fire Brigade in like manner could not be surpassed in any civilized community, and it was only to be regretted that there were so very few of them. His own belief was that the appointment of the Committee would do a great deal of good. He would suggest that, in addition to the subjects mentioned in the Motion, the Committee ought to be asked to take evidence on the subject of fraudulent fires and fraudulent insurances. If not, a Special Com- mittee must before long be appointed to consider this matter. The House had heard a good deal about fraudulent insurance on ships; a great deal of fire insurance gambling on houses went on in London. In every case of a suspicious fire there should be an inquiry before a Coroner or some other officer. The system of fire insurance gave rise to a great deal of fraud, and he trusted that this subject would be dealt with by the Committee.

MR. BOORD

said, that when he seconded the Motion it did not appear to him that he could add anything to the exceedingly lucid statement that had been made by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), but since he thought that part of what had fallen from the Chairman of the Board of Works might have created a wrong impression, he would venture to offer a few remarks by way of criticism. His hon. and gallant Friend (Sir James Hogg) was there to defend the Board over which he presided, and by faithfully following the brief which had no doubt been placed in his hands, he had apparently succeeded to his own satisfaction in proving that that Board was the embodiment of administrative virtue. His hon. Friend's (Mr. Ritchie's) statement might be divided broadly into two parts. First he alleged the inadequacy of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade as at present constituted; and, secondly, he stated the causes of its insufficiency. Now, his hon. and gallant Friend had denied the first part, and had taken no notice of the second. What the House wanted to know was why, in London, there should be only 395 firemen to a population of 3,500,000 persons, whilst in Hamburg, with a population one-twentieth of the size, there were two-and-a-half times as many men? Paris, with half the population, had four times the number, and St. Petersburg, with one-sixth, had three times the number of men. His hon. and gallant Friend had not thought it worth his while to explain how it could be satisfactory that a station in an important situation should be left with only two men in charge, or even in some instances entirely shut up when those two men were required to attend a fire; nor did he seem to admit that there was any discontent in the ranks of the Brigade. He (Mr. Boord) held in his hand the copy of a letter which had been addressed to the Chairman of the Fire Brigade Committee by a man who had left the service. The writer of that letter stated that it had been his intention to remain in the Brigade for the best part of his life if there had been the slightest prospect of provision in old age and infirmity. He said that promotion was too slow for a man with any energy and zeal. That arose from the want of a system of superannuation which would enable men to rise without waiting for the death of their seniors. He further complained of the continual strain of duty, both mental and physical. He had gone out four consecutive nights in the depth of winter on escape duty for 13 hours at a time, and, strange to say, he did not seem to find the bed in the sentry box so luxurious as the hon. and gallant Gentleman had represented it to be. [Sir JAMES HOGG: I never said anything of the sort.] Well, at any rate, the opinion of the writer of the letter he was quoting from seemed to differ very materially from the opinion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The writer further stated that the four consecutive nights out were not allowed to interfere with the regular routine of day duty in the station and at fires, and he concluded by saying that until some alteration was made the Brigade would be a mere school for firemen, and none would remain that were worth keeping. The hon. and gallant Member had referred to a pension that had recently been given, in proof of the liberality of the Board; but he had omitted to state that that pension had only been granted since the present Motion appeared on the Order Book of the House, and from a Return of the Metropolitan Board of Works which he held in his hand, he (Mr. Boord) was able to inform the House that that was only the third pension awarded by the Board during the whole time they had had the control of the Brigade. The statement of his hon. Friend had conclusively proved the inadequacy of the Brigade as it now existed. The men were short in numbers and overworked, and the Board had entirely failed to carry out their promise to establish a system of superannuation. All the protests and appeals made by the men in regard to the pension question had been bandied about like shuttlecocks, between the Board and its Committees, and nothing was done in the way of a remedy—yet the House was asked to believe that the management of the Board was perfection itself. The inhabitants of the metropolis had a right to have their lives and property protected from the peril of fire; but after a sufficiently long trial it did not seem that that duty was in competent hands. A Royal Commission had reported in 1862 in favour of what they called a Police Fire Brigade, and although he had no desire to add to the troubles of his right hon. Friend below him (the Secretary of State for the Home Department) he sincerely trusted that that recommendation would be well considered by the Committee, which he hoped the House was about to grant, in order that the Brigade might be conducted in a more satisfactory manner than had been found possible under what was in reality little more than a sort of enlarged Vestry.

Mr. M'LAGAN

said, that if the Government granted the Committee it ought to take evidence on several matters not embraced in the Resolution. One was that of fraudulent fires, already alluded to. Another was, whether the insurance companies should continue to be taxed for the Fire Brigade. He objected to that system, for it practically made those who insured their property pay for those who did not insure. As regarded the deficiency of the water supply he could bear out what the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) had said. The subject was brought very prominently before the Committee of 1867, but nothing in the way of improvement had yet been done by the Board of Works, although he understood the water companies had expressed their willingness to do something. The matter was one of great importance, because there was no doubt a good deal of property was destroyed by fire every year in consequence of the supply of water being short. It was but right to point out, however, that there were at present more men in the Fire Brigade in proportion to the population than there were in 1861, and that they had now proportionately less work to do than then. Under these circumstances, it was, perhaps, worth while to consider whether the efficiency of the Fire Brigade could not be improved by a re-distribution of stations rather than by increasing the number of men. If a portion of the Brigade could always be promptly on the spot where they were wanted, many fires that now became destructive might be arrested in their first stage, and incendiarism in that case would have less chance of escaping detection than at present. In view of these different considerations, he thought it desirable that a Committee should be appointed.

Mr. ASSHETON CROSS

said, he did not rise to enter into any dispute between the Metropolitan Board of Works and the metropolitan Members, nor would he say a single word as to the management of the Fire Brigade. No doubt the Board had done a great deal; but he did not say that they might not have done a great deal more. It ought, however, to be borne in mind that the Board was limited by its rate, and that it had not unlimited funds at its disposal. If the House looked at the balance-sheet of last year it would be seen that the Board had spent more than its actual income on the Brigade. In passing, he desired to say a word of very great praise on behalf of the Brigade itself. He did not believe that here or anywhere else existed a body of men so efficient to perform the arduous and dangerous duties which they were called upon—monthly, weekly, almost nightly—to discharge. He wished publicly to bear testimony to the spirit which animated every one connected with the corps, from the gentleman who commanded it—than whom there could be no person more competent for his office—down to the very lowest member of the Brigade. They acted with an energy, zeal, and esprit de corps which was almost unknown in any other country. Considering the great strain put upon them night after night for it might be a week or two together—because fires often occurred in masses at a particular time—their position ought to be made such as would satisfy reasonable men. He was bound to say, after having looked very carefully into the matter, that their position at present was not of that character. A great number of the men resigned their places in the force to go into other situations—a fact which might fairly be taken as a proof that they were not now offered such advantages as they ought to have. Moreover, their position as compared with that of the Metropolitan and City Police was inferior to the position of that somewhat analagous force. He did not think that ought to be so, and the time had come when the House should have an inquiry made into the whole matter. He had long been of opinion that, in spite of the efficiency of that gallant corps, the condition of London in regard to fires was not satisfactory. They had not all the means and the appliances that were necessary for the safety of life and property against fires. The first thing they wanted for extinguishing a fire was water, and he thought the supply of water in London for that purpose was quite inadequate. Even where there might be plenty of water it could not be got at. It was said the turncock was often away, and that was true; but frequently when the cock was turned the fireman did not know in the least whether he would find water there or not, or what pressure of water he would find; and, therefore, it was essential that the energy and zeal of the Fire Brigade should be seconded by all the appliances requisite for putting out the fire the moment it began. Probably some more men might be required, but he did not think that so many would be necessary as the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had shadowed out; because in that as in other matters he believed they might, by improved management, have economy of men as well as of money, and thus avoid the necessity of a very large addition to the force. The question as to fraudulent fires should also be dealt with by the Committee which he hoped the House would appoint. Without in the least casting any reflection on the Metropolitan Board of Works, he thought the proposed inquiry ought to extend into the subject of fraudulent fires; and, the better to secure that object, he would move the addition to the Resolution of the words, "and to inquire into the most efficient means of providing further security against the loss of life and property by fire in the Metropolis."

MR. RITCHIE

said, he readily accepted the addition made to his Motion by the Home Secretary.

Amendment proposed, To add, at the end of the Question, the words "and into the most efficient means of providing further security from loss of life and property by fire in the metropolis."—(Mr. Assheton Cross.)

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the constitution, efficiency, emoluments, and finances of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, and into the most efficient means of providing further security from loss of life and property by fire in the metropolis. And, on March 31, Committee nominated as follows:—Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON, Mr. STEVENSON, Mr. M'LAGAN, Mr. CLIFTON, Mr. KINNAIRD, Sir HENRY PEEK, Sir ANDREW LUSK, Lord LINDSAY, Mr. HERBERT, Mr. FIELDEN, The Marquess of TAVISTOCK, Mr. ONSLOW, Mr. HAYTER, Mr. FORSYTH, Mr. HANKEY, Sir WILLIAM FRASER, Mr. YOUNG, Mr. LOCKE, Mr. JOHN STEWART HARDY, Sir JAMES HOGG, and Mr. RITCHIE:—Powerto send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.