HC Deb 08 June 1876 vol 229 cc1583-95

Supply—considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

CLASS I.

(1.) £26,303, to complete the sum for Royal Palace.

(2.) £95,105, to complete the sum for Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens.

Mr. RITCHIE

stated, with reference to the charges which had been brought against the management of Victoria Park, that he had been in communication with his constituents on the subject, and he had every reason to believe that the charges were totally unfounded. He would be glad to hear if any further communication had been received on the subject from the inhabitants. In the name of his constituents he begged to thank the First Commissioner of Works for the great facilities he had afforded for recreation in Victoria Park, especially in the matter of the extension of the hours for bathing in the lake and the promotion of the game of cricket.

MR. ADAM

inquired whether it was intended to abandon the Vote for lectures to gardeners sanctioned by the Treasury upon the recommendation of Dr. Hooker?

Mr. C. B. DENISON

asked what had become of the amount of £5,000 voted for a new road across the Green Park?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, he had much pleasure in informing his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), that he had received a memorial expressing regret that an anonymous attack should have been made upon the superintendent of Vic- toria Park, and pointing out that even if the charges could have been substantiated, they would not have been worthy of attention. He had also received numerous letters, all testifying to the fact that perfect satisfaction was felt by the respectable portion of the inhabitants of the East End of London with the present management of Victoria Park. In answer to his right hon. Friend (Mr. Adam), he had to state that the lectures to gardeners were not to be discontinued; and as to the Green Park, he must explain that on finding his plan of last year impracticable, he had surrendered the supplemental sum of £5,000 to the Treasury. It would, therefore, be necessary for him to ask for a Vote for the new scheme.

MR. ADAM

said, that some of the mounds in Hyde Park had been removed, and expressed a hope that the rest would be taken away, and the ground laid down with grass.

MR. MELLOR

hoped the noble Lord would let the mounds remain. He had been at some trouble to know where they were, and on having them pointed out, found they were of a decorative character, and as the expense of placing them in the Park had been incurred, he trusted the noble Lord would spend no money in removing them.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £112,938, to complete the sum for Public Buildings.

MR. RAMSAY

took occasion to object to the item of £3,400 for the maintenance and repair of the structure of the prison at Broadmoor, which, he said, was a comparatively new building.

MR. C. B. DENISON

said, that upwards of £8,000 was asked for the Probate Court and Registries, and this required some explanation. There were serious complaints about the proposed removal of the documents from the local registries to London; and he wished to know whether it was intended to bring all these records to London?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that a departmental Committee had been appointed to inquire into the whole question of the expenditure on Broadmoor, and that he had thought it right that certain works which it was proposed to carry on in connection with it should be put a stop to, until the result of that inquiry had been ascertained. Broad- moor was under the control of a peculiarly constituted Board, composed of gentlemen of the highest standing, who took a great interest in it, and who, he felt satisfied, did their utmost to maintain it in a state of efficiency at as cheap a rate as possible.

MR. RAMSAY

said, it was far from his intention to impugn the conduct of those by whom the affairs of Broadmoor were administered; but he could not help thinking that the sum asked for the ordinary maintenance of the building was excessive.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE

wished to ask his noble Friend, whether the scheme which had been entertained for a number of years for re-building the public offices, on a scale befitting their dignity, on the plot of ground lying between the present Foreign Office and Great George Street had been, as stated in the newspapers, abandoned; and, if so, for what reason?

MR. W. H. SMITH

informed the hon. Member (Mr. Denison) that the sum asked for was to be spent upon district registries, and not for any building in London. The Vote had nothing to do with the removal of the records to London.

MR. C. B. DENISON

asked for information as to the £1,500 required for the restoration of St. Peter's Chapel in the Tower of London.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

observed, that the scheme for the concentration of the public offices involved an expenditure of £3,000,000, and it was not for him—not having a seat in the Cabinet—to state the reasons which had led to its abandonment. The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. B. Hope) should rather address his question to his right hon. Friend sitting near him, who, he had no doubt, would be able to give a satisfactory answer. He could only assure him there was nothing in the scheme which commended itself less to his notice now than it did before, as one that would lead to the ornamentation of London and the convenience of the Public Offices. With reference to the question of the hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. C. B. Denison), he would say that St. Peter's Chapel in the Tower had fallen into a very disgraceful state for want of repair. Under the chancel was buried Queen Ann Boleyn, and the chapel contained other monuments of great interest. Having opened the Tower of London two days in the week free to the public—a movement which had been deeply appreciated—he thought it would be well that St. Peter's Chapel should be added to the other interesting monuments to which the public were now admitted.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE

would avail himself of the hint given by his noble Friend and ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the scheme for the concentration of the Public Offices had been definitively abandoned or only postponed, and whether there was any chance of their being a large scheme for placing the Public Offices upon any other site?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

could not say that the decision of this question proceeded upon grounds which would lead to the definitive abandonment of the scheme. These grounds had reference mainly to the circumstances of the present times, and to the fact that we had a very large and important amount of building on our hands. There were the Courts of Justice, the Natural History Museum, and other buildings which it was necessary to proceed with, while the work that would have had to be done in connection with the concentration of the Public Offices would have cost a very large sum of money even immediately, and would have involved considerable expense prospectively; and from circumstances he need not detail it was not convenient to undertake at the present moment that charge in addition to our national burdens. But he was fully convinced that it was desirable, in the interests of the public service, that they should, as they could, proceed with the concentration of the Public Offices. That object had been kept in view for a great number of years by successive Governments, and from time to time steps had been taken in that direction. One large block within a year or two had been completed, and was now occupied by the public Departments; and he hoped it would be in their power by-and-by to proceed with the work. By placing the Public Offices on the site referred to, they might hope to be able to save a good deal in the shape of rents for offices now scattered over different localities. But it would not have been wise in the circumstances of the present year to proceed with the scheme, although he could say the sub- ject was one they had much at heart. He might add that one or two small portions of the site had been purchased.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £13,440, to complete the sum for Furniture of Public Offices.

(5.) £25,569, to complete the sum for Houses of Parliament.

(6.) £4,360, to complete the sum for the new Home and Colonial Offices.

MR. ADAM

observed, that those Offices still remained unfinished, and he wished to know whether the ornamentation originally designed would be carried out?

MR. C. B. DENISON

asked, whether it was true that the drainage of these new Offices was in a highly unsatisfactory state? It had been publicly asserted that owing to some carelessness on the part of the builder or architect there had been no communication made between the drains in those buildings and the main sewer, and that our public officials had in consequence been subjected to an unwholesome atmosphere prejudicial to their health. He wished to know who was responsible for this state of things if it existed?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, it was not the present, but the late Government, which was responsible for the corners of the offices referred to being deprived of cupolas. Since he had been in office Sir Gilbert Scott had suggested another way of treating the corners, but the suggestion was not one he approved. However, he laid the scheme before Her Majesty's Government, and it was now under consideration. The drainage of the Home and Colonial Offices had been found on one or two occasions to be in a very deficient state; and, of course, the person responsible was the man who designed and under whom the contractors built—namely, Sir Gilbert Scott. His (Lord Henry Lennox's) attention was called to the matter, and in an incredibly short time the evil was remedied, as far as possible, and since he received the expression of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary's gratitude he had heard nothing more on the subject.

Vote agreed to.

(7.) £9,506, to complete the sum for Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland.

MR. RAMSAY

said, he observed the greater part of the money asked for was in respect to the new Sheriff Court buildings, and that it had in point of fact, been expended. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, having reference to the Sheriff Courts Bill, which was now before the House, should have advised the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withhold this Vote altogether for the present. There could be no doubt that the Scottish judicial system and the Scottish judicial staff as a whole must come under the consideration of the Home Secretary at an early period. They had about 80 sheriffs and sheriffs-depute in Scotland; but he really could not understand what justification there could be for a grant of public money to erect a new Court House at such a place as Fort William, where the whole sum under litigation during the year was not equal to the interest of the sum of money the public were going to pay. His own opinion was that they might reduce the number of Judges in Scotland in those Courts by one-half, and, with great advantage to the community, get the business done as it was done elsewhere, by the Sheriff going about from place to place. As he observed the Lord Advocate in his place, he did trust that the right hon. Gentleman would concur with him in these observations, and that he would advise the discontinuance of such Votes for such places and for such purposes. It was simply a waste of the public and the ratepayers' money, and of the energies of the officers that were employed in those Courts. He saw that certain sums of money had already been voted, or he would have asked for a discontinuance of these Votes altogether. Under the circumstances, he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would take care that he did not lend his sanction to Votes of this character in future, or if he (Mr. Ramsay) had the honour of a seat in that House, he should certainly take the sense of the House against voting such sums of money.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £2,084, to complete the sum for National Gallery Enlargement.

In reply to Mr. Adam,

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that the new National Gallery had been finished and handed over to the Office of Works. He could not say when it would be opened to the public, as that depended on the Trustees, who were at present engaged in re-arranging the pictures.

Vote agreed to.

(9.) £143,718, to complete the sum for Post Office and Inland Revenue Buildings.

(10.) £11,573, to complete the sum for British Museum Buildings.

(11.) £46,050, to complete the sum for County Courts Buildings.

(12.) £4,043, to complete the sum for Science and Art Department Buildings.

(13.) £105,500, to complete the sum for the Surveys of the United Kingdom.

Sir WALTER BARTTELOT

asked whether the survey had been going on satisfactorily, and whether the Government were using their best endeavours to advance it? In his own county a certain portion of the survey had been completed two years ago, and they had not any maps yet. He was told that a certain number of persons had been discharged, and that as little expense as possible was being incurred. This was a matter in which all were exceedingly interested, and the great object was that the survey should be carried on as rapidly and finished as soon as possible.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, the survey was progressing very favourably, and every exertion was being made that the means placed at the disposal of the Government would allow. It was quite true that some men had been discharged, but that was owing to the natural wish expressed by the Treasury that they should not have Supplementary Votes this year. His hon. and gallant Friend would understand that he felt a delicacy in pushing on maps of a district with which he was connected, lest other parts of the country should charge him with partiality. The maps, however, were being pushed on, and he could assure his hon. and gallant Friend that there was no one who had more at heart the rapid progress of the survey than he had.

Mr. DODSON

said, he did not think the noble Lord had answered the question whether the Government were doing their best to advance the survey.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he understood the answer of his noble Friend to be that the progress was satisfactory to himself and the Government. No doubt if a larger sum were placed at the disposal of the First Commissioner the advance would be greater and more rapid; but it was not thought right to spend more than £130,000 in the course of the year on the matter. It was hoped that the surveys would be completed within the next 13 or 14 years.

Vote agreed to.

(14.) £7,405, to complete the sum for Harbours, &c. under the Board of Trade.

(15.) £7,500, to complete the sum for the Metropolitan Fire Brigade.

(16.) £194,991, to complete the sum for Rates on Government Property.

(17.) £951, to complete the sum for the Wellington Monument.

Mr. BERESFORD HOPE

trusted that at last some satisfactory assurance would be given that a positive date had been fixed for the completion of this monument?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

reminded the hon. Member that at the time he came into office this monument had been in hand for upwards of 23 years, during which period little or no progress had been made towards its completion, while great doubt had been entertained whether even when finished it would be successful. Since the death of Mr. Stevens the castings had gone on with great rapidity, and several portions of the monument had been exhibited in the sculpture gallery, and no dissentient voice had been raised against the extreme merit possessed by the work. The work was rapidly approaching completion, and he hoped the country would have an opportunity of judging before long whether the monument would be one worthy of the country and of the illustrious man in whose honour it was being erected. He understood that the work would be completed before the end of the present financial year.

Vote agreed to.

(18.) £65,000, to complete the sum for the Natural History Museum.

In reply to Mr. Adam and Mr. Beresford Hope, who trusted that Mr. Ayrton's proposed mutilation of the building by razing the towers and cupolas would not be carried out,

LORD HENRY LENNOX

stated that the Government had the contractor's assurance that the building would be completed by the 1st of November, 1877, and that it was under his consideration whether it was advisable to restore to the proposed elevation the ornamental features which the late Government had directed to be struck out.

Vote agreed to.

(19.) £4,644, to complete the sum for Metropolitan Police Courts.

In reply to Mr. Adam,

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that the site in Castle Street fixed upon for the erection of the new Bow Street Police Court and station had been given up on account of its great inconvenience, and arrangements had been practically concluded with the Duke of Bedford for a site for both in Bow Street, and a Bill would shortly be introduced for carrying it into effect.

Vote agreed to.

(20.) £65,325, to complete the sum for New Courts of Justices and Offices.

SIR HENRY JAMES

called attention to the fact that £933,000 had already been expended in purchasing the site of the New Courts of Justice, which at 4 per cent interest represented £37,000 a-year lying useless. £148,000 had been expended, and as £826,000 was to be expended, and they were progressing at the rate of £80,000 a-year, it would take 10 years before the whole sum was spent and the buildings completed. He wished to know whether it was true that the contractors were confined to the expenditure of only £80,000 a-year?

Sir WALTER BARTTELOT

asked for an explanation of the item of rates and taxes which were paid in respect of the site of the New Courts of Justice.

MR. MELLOR

called attention to the sum of 15 per cent being charged for architect's fees.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, the Government were not satisfied with the progress which had been made in the building of the New Law Courts. Everything had been done that could be done to urge the contractors to a completion of the work. Mr. Street, the architect, had been unceasing in his appeals to them in their own interest—for if they failed in their contract they would have to pay a very heavy penalty—to proceed more vigorously with the work. Mr. Street had reported to the Office of Works quite recently that the contractors had not been employing a sufficient number of men to carry on the work according to the terms of their contract. In the month of May they had expended only a sixth of the money that had been voted for the building. Only two years and a quarter remained to them to finish the eastern portion of the building, and only four years and a quarter to finish the whole building. The building ought to be completed in seven years from the time when the work was commenced. Unless the contractors exhibited much more vigour and employed more men than they did at present, he could hold out very little hope to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the building would be completed within the four and a-half years that had yet to run.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

said, it was currently rumoured that no provision was made for the Court of Appeal in the new building, and that Court would have to sit in the Chancellor's Court in Lincoln's Inn. He hoped that rumour was not correct. Such a course would be very inconvenient to the Court itself, to the Profession, and to the public. He hoped that some assurance would be given that provision would be made for the Court of Appeal in the building.

MR. RYLANDS

said, it appeared from what had been stated by the noble Lord that there was little chance of the Courts being completed within the time contracted for. If not, he should like to know if the Government intended to press for the penalties for non-completion? He should also like to know how it was that £11,000 had been paid to the architect for commission?

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, the Act of Parliament under which the site of the new buildings was acquired provided that certain rates and taxes which were chargeable in respect of the property that was cleared away from the site should continue to be paid, and they had been paid from the moment the Government acquired the site. No more had been paid to the architect for the preparation of the plans and drawings than the agreement provided for. That agreement was made by the preceding Government, and it had been most strictly complied with. Mr. Street had not asked for and certainly had not received a single farthing more than he was entitled to. He might state, on behalf of the Treasury, that the greatest possible dissatisfaction had been expressed at the very slow progress which had been made with those buildings. Although £80,000 was taken in the present year's Estimates, the smallness of the sum was due to the hopelessness of their getting more of the work done than would be covered by that amount of expenditure. Remembering that the money voted in past years had been surrendered, he thought it would have been simply deceiving the Committee to have made a larger provision than there was a reasonable prospect of expending. But the Treasury had intimated to his noble Friend that if the contractors would advance faster with the work there would be no difficulty in providing the money required for its execution.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, that although no blame attached to the Government, the result was most unsatisfactory and very injurious to the country. Everything that was possible ought to be done to compel the contractors to complete the buildings. The penalties to which they were liable ought to be enforced against them; and, if necessary, the work should be taken from them and put into other hands.

LORD HENRY LENNOX,

in answer to the hon. and learned Member for Beaumaris (Mr. Morgan Lloyd), observed that Mr. Street's original designs included no salon or hall for the Court of Appeal, because, at the time when the drawings were made and accepted by the Government of the day, the new Court of Appeal was not in existence. His attention had been called to the matter last year; and, no doubt, when the work had progressed a little further, the Lord Chancellor would communicate with him, and proper provision would be made for the Court of Appeal if it was necessary or expedient to place it there. At the same time, Lincoln's Inn, the present site of the Court of Appeal, was, he believed, in every way satisfactory to those who practised in that tribunal.

Mr. MORGAN LLOYD

regretted very much that he had failed to get a satisfactory reply to his question. He could not believe that if, owing to any course whatever, provision had not been made for the Court of Appeal, it was too late to make it now; and he thought also that the Government should take steps to press on the construction of the buildings.

MR. W. H. SMITH

remarked that the designs for the New Courts of Justice were settled before the new Court of Appeal was dreamt of, and to attempt now to interpolate the Court of Appeal into a contract which was not being carried out in a satisfactory manner would be to afford the contractors a very good excuse for not completing the work in time, and also take from the Government the power of enforcing against the contractors the penalties to which the latter were liable, penalties which it was their intention to enforce as far as possible.

Vote agreed to.

(21.) £1,951, to complete the sum for Ramsgate Harbour.

(22.) £2,100, to complete the sum for New Palace at Westminster, Acquisition of Lands and Embankment.

MR. C. B. DENISON

asked his noble Friend for information as to the probable time when these works would be completed, and what was to be done with the land after the completion of the Embankment?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that the Embankment had been completed, and the present Vote was merely required for railings and for laying out the ground. It was not intended to place anything on the Embankment until a general plan had been arranged with regard to the concentration of Government buildings.

Vote agreed to.

(23.) £12,960, to complete the sum for Lighthouses Abroad.

(24.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £37,330, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1877, for the British Embassy Houses, Consular and Legation Buildings, &c. in China and Japan, Constantinople, Therapia, Madrid, Paris, Teheran, Vienna, and Washington.

Sir H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

complained that proper houses had not been provided at Berlin and Rome; and also that some of these Embassy houses were managed by the Chief Commissioner of Works and some by the Foreign Office.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that the present arrangement had been determined by the Treasury in order that the whole of the Votes might appear under one head; and added that suitable houses at Berlin and Rome had been applied for, and that the subject was under the consideration of the Government.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF

said, that the Estimates under this head were in a most unsatisfactory state, and that there was a great deal of looseness in the drawing up of the Foreign Office part of them; he therefore moved that the Chairman do report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir H. Drummond Wolff.)

Mr. W. H. SMITH

stated the Estimates were now under one head instead of two as formerly, and that the whole subject would be fully considered by the Government.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.