HC Deb 11 February 1876 vol 227 cc230-7
MR. O'REILLY

, in moving for an Address for certain Papers relating to the position of Roman Catholic chaplains in India, and the numbers of Christians of all denominations, expressed his sur- prise that his Motion should not have been allowed to take the form of one for an unopposed Return. As early as the year 1833 a solemn pledge was given that Her Majesty's Christian subjects of all denominations in India should be placed upon a footing of perfect equality. Up to the present date that pledge had not been redeemed, a circumstance, which, he thought, was hardly creditable to those in power. For many years the Roman Catholic soldiers in Her Majesty's Army in India were without a chaplain of their own religion to minister to them, and although lately something had been done in the matter the state of affairs was still very unsatisfactory. As an instance of the injustice that was committed he might mention that while the Roman Catholic chaplains were paid only at the rate of 100 rupees a-month, rising gradually to 300, the Anglican chaplains were paid at the rate of 500, rising to 800. Surely that alone was a crying injustice and inequality. Further than that, there was not a sufficient number appointed. Nor could ignorance be pleaded for such a state of things. Complaints had been repeatedly made to the Indian Government with reference to the great inequality of these payments, but without any result. The subject had been fully considered by the Indian Government, all the correspondence relating to it had been concluded, and the country had a right to have a copy of the correspondence in order that it might be able to judge whether the Indian Government was justified in making no alteration with reference to these salaries. He asked for the Returns on this subject nearly nine months ago, and he wished to know why they had not been given? He wanted to see from these Papers why justice had not been done in that matter, and whether, even if to do justice it should be necessary to cut down existing establishments, it might not be proper to consider that alternative. Those Papers, though they were State, and therefore public property, had been withheld. The matter had been before the Indian Government since 1870, and it was high time that the Papers, which would enable the public to judge of the matter, should be produced. What, in short, had been the course of proceeding on the part of the Indian Government in this matter? In 1870 the whole question was brought under their notice by Lord Mayo and nothing was done. In 1872, he, himself (Mr. O'Reilly) brought the subject under their notice in a letter addressed to the then Secretary of State, the Duke of Argyll, who was confident that there would be no undue delay in ascertaining the views of the Indian Government. In August, 1872, the Indian Government said that they would reserve their opinion, until they could go into the whole matter. In August of the following year he (Mr. O'Reilly) made applications on the subject again, but still nothing was done. Again and again the Indian Government were applied to, but they did nothing. They did, he believe, decide, but they decided to do nothing, and did not choose to announce that decision, and finally, last year, he gave Notice of his intention to ask for the Papers. The India Office undertook to write out to India and ask the Indian authorities to send those Papers to this country. On the first day of the Session he made further inquiry, but got no answer until that day, when he received a courteous communication from the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for India (Lord George Hamilton) saying that there had been some delay, which he could not account for, in hearing from India. He must now ask the House to insist on an answer from the Indian Government with respect to those Papers, of which he believed there was not one that could not be produced. The first paper for which he asked was the Circular Letter of the Governor General in Council to Local Governments, dated 14th August, and the 2nd November, 1872, calling for Returns of numbers of Christians in congregations, salaries of ministers to same, &c., and Returns to the same by Local Governments. A very distinguished Member of the Indian Council promised to take up this question, but yet we were without the required information. A local Indian paper quoted from a Memorandum of Lord Mayo on the subject of Roman Catholic chaplains this remarkable expression—"The present state of things is anomalous and difficult to defend." He (Mr. O'Reilly) asked for that Memorandum of Lord Mayo, dated 2nd December, 1870. He also asked for the despatch of the Governor General in Council to the Secretary of State, dated 21st December, 1870; and for the Minutes by Members of Council on the question of the position of the Roman Catholic clergy in India, dated 15th and 22nd of June, 1872. He (Mr. O'Reilly) supposed the terms of that despatch to be to the following effect—" The question of the reduction of the number of ecclesiastical chaplains in India is now receiving our earnest attention, and we hope to be soon able to lay before you our views on this subject." The next Paper he asked for was Minutes by Members of Council on the same subject, dated 16th December, 1873, and 10th March, 1874. He wanted to know the opinion of the Indian Government on this subject. Suppose they held the "levelling down" principle, and that the reduction of the Anglican establishment in India was the right course, and that another form or religious instruction should be substituted, ought we not to know the reasons? He also asked for the Memorial of the Most Rev. Dr. Stein, delivered to the Government of India on this subject, and some letters of his own addressed to the Indian Government. The Indian Government did not choose to answer, and that was the reason for their silence. Let it be supposed that the answer of the Indian Government was practically this—" We will say nothing at all until directed by the Secretary of State. If levelling down is then suggested from England, we can think of it afterwards." That, he feared, was the real explanation of the Indian Government with regard to the judicious silence which they had maintained from year to year; and the answer of the House of Commons to that ought to be given by a note calling for the production of the Papers.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies of— 1. Circular Letter of Governor General in Council to Local Governments, dated the 14th day of August and the 2nd day of November 1872, calling for Returns of numbers of Christians in congregations, salaries of ministers to same, &c., and of Returns to the same by Local Governments; 2. Memorandum by Lord Mayo, dated the 2nd day of December 1870, on position of Roman Catholic Chaplains in India; 3. Despatch of Governor General in Council to the Secretary of State, dated the 21st day of December 1870; 4. Minutes by Members of Council on the question of the position of the Roman Catholic Clergy in India, dated the 15th and the 22nd days of June 1872; 5. Despatch of Governor General in Council to the Secretary of State, dated Simla, the 19th day of August 1872; 6. Minutes by Members of Council on same subject, dated the 16th day of December 1873 and the 10th day of March 1874; 7. Same by same, dated the 2nd and the 22nd days of July 1874; 8. Memorial of Most Rev. Dr. Stein's delivered to Government of India; 9. Minutes by Members of Council on Dr. Stein's Memorial dated the 19th day of October and the 9th day of November 1874; 10. Letter and Memorandum addressed to the Secretary of State by M. O'Reilly, Esq., M.P., dated the 28th day of October 1875; 11. And, any further Correspondence on same subject between Secretary of State and Government of India or M. O'Reilly,"—(Mr. O'Reilly,)

—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON

said, he would at once admit that the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. O'Reilly) had pressed the question of the position of Roman Catholic chaplains on the India Office with great consideration. The remarks of the hon. Member naturally divided themselves into two parts—first, the grievance under which the Roman Catholic chaplains were said to labour, and secondly, the reasons which could be adduced for the production of the Papers. When the present Ministry was formed they found that a despatch as to those Papers had been sent out to the Indian Government in 1872, to which no answer had been received, and Lord Salisbury had twice since then addressed the Indian Government on the matter. Last year, when the hon. Gentleman moved for those Papers, he (Lord George Hamilton) told him that, though some of them were at the India Office, there were others which he had never seen, and therefore it would be impossible for him, as the Representative of a public Department, to promise their production. The Papers which the hon. Member moved for from the Government of India were Memorandum Minutes, which were often of a private character, and could not be produced; and he had said last year, that before he could consent to the production of those Papers he must communicate with the Government of India. The India Office pressed the Government of India very shortly after last Session, and expected a reply. About six weeks ago they received a despatch from the Government of India asking them to send an enclosure which appeared to have been omitted from the despatch. That was sent on the 15th of January, and he felt when the hon. Member placed his Notice on the Paper that it was due to him to telegraph to India for a reply as to which Papers might be presented. In answer, he had that day received a telegram to the effect that the Papers would be forwarded without further delay. There was not the least wish on his own part, or on the part of the Secretary of State, to keep back these Papers; but he could not pledge himself to produce them until he had seen them, which he hoped very soon to be able to do. There was one portion of the telegram from the Indian Government which would be satisfactory to the hon. Member who had moved for these Papers. The hon. Member had said that the pay of the Roman Catholic chaplains rose to 300 rupees, whereas it only rose to 200. He (Lord George Hamilton) did not seek to deny that there were a great discrepancy between the position of the Roman Catholic chaplains and the Anglican chaplains. But it was to be borne in mind that the Roman Catholic chaplains in India stood on a different footing from the Established Church and Presbyterian chaplains. In this matter, in fact, the Indian Government might be said to pay by results. [Laughter.] That perhaps might not be a very reverent term, but he had not intended to use it irreverently. The hon. Gentleman declared that the position and status of the Roman Catholic chaplains was not what could be wished, but it ought to be remembered that many of them were not English, and could not even speak English; and the work they performed for the troops and white subjects of Her Majesty was not their only work, for they also acted as missionaries. The Duke of Argyll had pointed out the broad distinction between the position of the clergy of the Churches of England and Scotland and that of the priests of the Church of Rome in India; the former being bound to obey the orders of Government, and the latter only the orders of their spiritual superiors. That explained the great disparity which doubtless existed between the salaries of the chaplains of the Established Church and those of the Roman Catholic chaplains. With regard to the telegram, the portion to which he had just referred stated that the Indian Government had determined to increase the allowances of the Roman Catholic chaplains. Their number at present was about 76, and they received payments varying from 100 to 200 rupees per month. It was now proposed that 20 of not less than 15 years' service should receive 300 rupees a-month, and that 24 of not less than seven years' service should have 250 rupees, and that the remaining 32 should get 200 rupees per month; while it was further suggested that they should receive in addition a service allowance of 30 rupees per month. It was evident, therefore, that the position of the chaplains would be very considerably improved, the mimimum allowance under the scale about to be adopted being the maximum at present. With regard to the Papers, he could assure the hon. Member for Longford that as soon as the despatch of the Indian Government was received, and if there was no objection, they would at once be produced. The hon. Member might meanwhile move for a Return of the Papers that were already in the hands of the Government, and to the production of which there was no objection, and wait for the reply of the Indian Government with respect to the others.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

said, that as to the production of the Papers, he could not congratulate the Government on the rapidity of their communications, seeing that it took them six years to obtain as much information as private enterprize in the public Press could obtain in a few hours. With regard to the proposed increase of the allowances of the Roman Catholic chaplains in India, it would only raise their pay about one-third of what the Established Church and Presbyterian chaplains were getting. The first class might have a little more, but the second and third classes would still have less pay than subalterns had, and it could hardly be said that that was a fair position for these chaplains to occupy. Nor was it quite fair to say that they were not in the service of the Government, and that they obeyed only the orders of the heads of their Church. He was aware, from personal observation, of the services which they performed in the Army, and knew of instances in which, their chaplains had applied to the commanding officer for permission to hold Bible services. It was true that they would not obey the Commander-in-Chief on a question of doctrine or sacrament; but he should like to see the Commander-in-Chief interfering in that respect either with Established Church or Presbyterian chaplains. As to some of them not being natives of England, some of the soldiers complained of the want of chaplains from other countries who could speak the language of those countries. If the Government would agree to pay them at the same rate, or at nearly the same rate, as the ministers of the Established Church or Presbyterian Church, while they were servants of the Crown, they would accept that compromise.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, he would bear testimony to the excellent service of the Roman Catholic chaplains in India, and to their readiness on all occasions to go where their services were required in the face of danger and death. No doubt they were formerly very poorly paid and lived poorly. Their position, however, had been improved, and it was to be improved still further, and he was not in favour of placing chaplains of any persuasion in India too much in the position of highly-paid clergymen at home. They often did better in the position of independent ministers. He favoured a levelling down policy of reducing the number of very highly-paid chaplains entirely at the service of the Crown, and trusting more to the many zealous ministers of different denominations in India.

MR. O'REILLY

said, he would accept the suggestion of the noble Lord, and withdraw his Motion.

Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Committee deferred till Monday next.