HC Deb 04 August 1876 vol 231 cc551-6

Further proceedings [4th August] on Consideration of the Bill, as amended, resumed.

Clause 14 (Payment of school fees for poor parents).

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he wished to propose an addition to the clause. In his opinion it would be better if school boards had not the power to give away public money. The Guardians would have better opportunities than the school boards could have of testing the real inability of parents to pay school fees. He therefore proposed to add at the end of the clause the words—"The 25th section of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, is hereby repealed."

VISCOUNT SANDON

said, he was glad to accept the Amendment on the authority of the right hon. Gentleman. He agreed that the provisions now made in the Bill would introduce greater economy in the relief given to indigent parents by confining such relief to persons who really needed it, and so reduce to a minimum payment out of the rates for supplementing the school fees. That was what those who had studied the educational question were most anxious to obtain. It was a matter of very great satisfaction to him that, after their various discussions, they should come to this point, for the Amendment would remove a very unnecessary bone of contention in connection with school boards, and the fear could hardly any longer be entertained that the rates were applied by favour to denominational schools to assist them, and not in cases only of absolute necessity, to enable poor parents to comply with the law, and send their children to the school of their choice.

MR. CHARLEY

thought it would be inconvenient to introduce that repealing clause in the middle of the Bill, and would suggest that the better course would be to place the 25th clause in the schedule among the repealed enactments. In Salford the 25th clause had worked admirably, and he only hoped that the Guardians of Salford would carry out the law as satisfactorily as it had been carried out by the school board of Salford, who had exhibited the greatest tact and delicacy in administering the ratepayers' bounty. He had some regret at the repeal of the 25th clause, but he regretted the way it had been worked in London, where the names and addresses of the parents who had been relieved by the school board were advertised in The Times.

MR. MITCHELL HENRY

congratulated the right hon. Gentleman who had introduced the 25th clause upon his great good fortune in being able to withdraw it. Roman Catholics had great reason to be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the consistency and moral courage he had shown upon this question. Irish Roman Catholics had, however, great grievances—those relating to University education and to middle class education.

Amendment agreed to; words added.

Clause 15 (Establishment, &c., by day industrial schools).

VISCOUNT SANDON

moved, as an Amendment, in page 6, lines 27 and 28, to leave out "an industrial school in which children are not lodged," in order to insert a better definition of a day industrial school, to which definition he had been greatly helped by the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. W. Holms). It was as follows:— A school in which industrial training, elementary education, and one or more meals a day, but not lodging, are provide for the children. The object was to exclude the possibility of making clothing a charge upon, the rates.

Amendment agreed to; words substituted.

VISCOUNT SANDON,

in moving, as an Amendment, in page 8, at end of clause, to insert as new paragraphs— A Secretary of State may from time to time make, and when made revoke, and vary the forms of orders for sending a child to a day industrial school, and the manner in which children are to be sent to such school. If a Secretary of State is of opinion that, by reason of a change of circumstances or otherwise, a certified day industrial school ceases to be necessary or expedient for the proper training and control of the children of any class of population in the neighbourhood of that school, he may, after due notice, withdraw the certificate of the school, and thereupon such school shall cease to be a certified day industrial school. Provided, That the reasons for withdrawing such certificate shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within one month after notice of the withdrawal is given, if Parliament be then sitting, or if not, within one month after the then next meeting of Parliament, said, the Amendment, which was in accordance with the feeling of both sides of the House, would enable the Secretary of State to keep watch on the growth of these schools; and, as the Government had great hope that after a certain term of years they would have done their work in many places, by civilizing the children in them, and fitting them for better schools, it would strengthen his hands in saying to the benevolent people or local authorities who might have established them, that they were no longer needed for the locality, and that therefore the State would not any longer support them.

LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

said, that the clause had met with universal condemnation from those gentlemen who took an interest in industrial schools. They entertained three fundamental objections to it—First, they had no security whatever that the parent would make the payment required of him under the clause; secondly, a child by going home of an evening would be deprived of all the benefit he might have obtained from the education given him during the day; and thirdly, the clause, which for the first time intro- duced a system of what might be called feeding the population at the expense of the ratepayers and the State, would have a gigantic effect in the way of degrading and demoralizing the poorer classes. If once they began to provide food, the question would next arise whether they ought not also to be clothed at the public expense. Owing also to the migratory character of the population of the large towns, it would be impossible to keep the children in the schools to which they had been committed, or to recover the sums due on their behalf from the parents. He could not see that any of the Amendments proposed in the clause in the least removed these objections, and he must enter his emphatic protest against it.

MR. A. MILLS

said, he must remind the noble Lord the Member for Calne (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) that there was a class of children in London who were not fit subjects for the prison, or the workhouse, or for the existing elementary schools, and who ought to be provided for in some such way as that now proposed. No doubt it would be better to have lodging schools, but how was Parliament to provide the funds necessary to establish institutions of that kind?

Amendment agreed to; paragraphs inserted.

Clause 16 (Conditions of contribution to day industrial schools).

On the Motion of Viscount Sandon, Clause amended, by leaving out in page 8, line 17, "shall conform to the standards," and inserting— To be recommended by the Secretary of State shall provide for the examination of the children according to the standards of proficiency.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH

moved to add at the end of the preceding Amendment a provision that the amount of the contribution should be dependent in each case on the results of the examination.

Amendment proposed, In page 8, after the word "proficiency," at the end of the last Amendment, to insert the words "and shall provide that the amount of the contribution shall be dependent upon the results of such examination."—(Lord Frederick Cavendish.)

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that the Secretary of State already had power to vary the amount of the contribution according to the Standard in which the child passed; and, that being so, it was undesirable to draw a hard-and-fast line.

MR. LYON PLAYFAIR

observed that he quite concurred in the Secretary of State having a discretion in the matter; but he still thought that unless the Amendment were agreed to, they would fall into the same error in the industrial schools of the future as they had done in those of the past.

Question, "That those words be there inserted;" put, and negatived.

Clause 18 (Supplemental provisions as to certificates of proficiency and previous attendance at school).

On the Motion of Lord FREDERICK CAVENDISH, Clause amended, in page 9, line 13, at end, by adding— All regulations made by the Education Department under this section shall be laid before Parliament in the same manner as minutes of the Education Department.

Clause 19 (Certificates of birth for purposes of Act).

On the Motion of Viscount SANDON, Clause amended, in page 9, line 20, after "fee," by inserting "not exceeding one shilling as the Local Government Board from time to time fix."

Clause 25 (Dissolution of school board under certain circumstances).

VISCOUNT SANDON

moved as an Amendment, in page 11, line 30, to leave out "three," and insert "six." The hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) had in Committee on the Bill proposed that the time should be within three months of the election of the Board; and the Government had kept the limit open for re-consideration or the Report. He now proposed that six months before the date of the election should be substituted for three months as the maximum limit—an arrangement which would be more convenient.

Amendment ageeed to; word substituted.

Clause 28 (Provisions as to school attendance committee and appointment of local committee).

MR. EARP

proposed an Amendment providing that no member of any local committee appointed under the Act should sit as a member of the court of summary jurisdiction in any proceeding instituted at the instance of such local committee.

Amendment proposed, In page 13, line 11, after the word "Act," to insert the words "nor shall any member of such local committee sit as a member of the court of summary jurisdiction in any proceeding instituted at the instance of such local committee."—(Mr. Earp.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

hoped that the Government would not accept the Amendment.

VISCOUNT SANDON

objected to the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Other Amendments made.

Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.