MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 8 March 1875)

§ MR. MORGAN LLOYD
, in moving for the appointment of a Select Committeee to inquire into the administration of justice in those portions of the Principality of Wales where the Welsh language prevailed, and to consider the expediency of appointing official interpreters to attend the Courts there, said the Motion of which he had given Notice was felt to be one of much importance in the Principality. He was bound to say that the percentage of wrong verdicts in Wales was not greater than it was in England; and as regarded perverse verdicts, he did not think Welsh jurymen were more perverse than English ones. But unless some change took place in the present mode of administering justice in Wales, it was absolutely impossible that a failure of justice should not sometimes take place in the Principality. For instance, this might occur, a jury might be composed thus: one third of them understood the English language, another third understood it imperfectly, and the remainder did not understand it at all. Part of the evidence was given in Welsh and part in English. The former was translated by some person who happened to be in Court, not for the sake of the jury, but for the convenience of the Judge and counsel. The evidence given in English was not translated, because the Judge and counsel understood it, unless, indeed, some juryman should happen to have the courage to speak out, and say he did not understand it. The counsel addressed the jury in English, and the Judge summed up in the same language, and yet the jury were asked to return a proper verdict according to the evidence, which they could not do, because a considerable portion of them did not understand the language in which the counsel and Judge had commented upon the evidence. The consequence was, that in many a clearly-proved case they preferred giving the prisoner the benefit of the doubt. At Quarter Sessions, in the County Courts, and before magistrates the same difficulty arose, and sometimes policemen had to be resorted to to interpret evidence. In the County Courts, it frequently happened that the parties were unable to state their cases in English, 1395 and were obliged to employ an attorney to conduct the most trifling suits, and even if they dispensed with professional assistance, they would still have to employ an interpreter, at an expense, it might be, greater than the amount they sought to recover. Under these circumstances, he submitted that it was not too much to ask the Government to appoint official interpreters, and pay them for the performance of their duties, not only in the Superior but in the Inferior Courts. The appointment and maintenance of fit persons to administer justice had always been treated as one of the duties of the Government. It was also the duty of the Government to make the administration of justice as effective as possible. In the Principality that could only be done by the appointment of competent interpreters. To interpret well required not only a thorough knowledge of both languages, but also skill and experience, and that could only be secured by the selection of those best qualified for the duties, and paying them an adequate remuneration for their services. In India and the colonies interpreters were appointed, and he did not see why Wales should be treated in a different manner. Was it because the people were so quiet and never raised a voice of complaint? Was it because they could govern Wales without a single soldier? However right or wrong it might be to maintain the Welsh language, if the Welsh people did not know English it was not their fault. They were very anxious to learn it; but the fact was that until almost recently, the Government had made no attempt to teach them the language. The prevalence of the Welsh language was a fact that could not be ignored, and whatever the opinions of Her Majesty's Government might be as to the advantages or disadvantages of its continuance, it was a fact that could not be lost sight of if they were really desirous of improving the administration of justice in that portion of the Empire. He thought his Motion commended itself to the attention of the Government, and he trusted they would not object to it. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving the Amendment.

§ SIR EARDLEY WILMOT
, thinking that the claim put forward by the hon. and learned Member was a most just one, cordially seconded the Motion.

MR. OSBORNE MORGAN
, in supporting the Motion, hoped his hon. and learned Friend would be more successful than he himself had been in his efforts to remedy the evil complained of. It was a mistake to suppose that in dealing with the subject, they would be dealing with a transitory state of things which would disappear in a generation or two. There was a popular belief that the Welsh language was dying out, but that was not well founded. At any rate, like Charles IL, it was dying extremely hard. The number of persons speaking Welsh in the Principality was larger he believed now than it was a generation ago, if not larger relatively than the people who spoke English. The truth was, that at school the Welsh children learnt English as a foreign language, and preferred when they went home to return to their native tongue. He could corroborate every word his hon. and learned Friend had said as to the result of this state of things, both in the Imperial and the local Courts. When they found the Judges and the counsel speaking one language, and the witnesses another, it was impossible that justice could be properly administered, and as a consequence, miscarriages of justice frequently occurred; indeed, he believed such miscarriages were more than were heard of; but the worst of the present system was, that it tended to lower the estimation in which the administration of justice was held. Last year he proposed that the County Court Judges in Wales should always be persons acquainted with the Welsh language. That would, so far as the local Courts at least were concerned, have been a great improvement, and he regretted his proposal was not acted upon. Although he did not believe much in Select Committees, yet, as the appointment of such a Committee would lead to the whole subject being con- 1397 sidered, he trusted that the Home Secretary would accede to the Motion.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS
said, he must differ somewhat from the hon. Member who had brought forward this subject. He must remind the House of a Rule, which used to be enforced by means of a Sessional Order, that, on going into Committee of Supply, they should only talk about subjects relating to the branch of Supply. He did not complain of the course which had been taken, but thought the old rule might now be usefully mentioned. As to the Motion, the question had in various shapes been mooted previously with respect to the Motion immediately before the House—namely, the appointment of a Select Committee. Considering the vast number of subjects, which had to be referred to Select Committees of the House of Commons, it was necessary to take seriously into consideration the convenience of Members who were called upon to serve upon such Committees. It was impossible to grant Committees upon every subject hon. Members wished, for the work of the House was getting greater and greater every year, and if these Committees were to go on multiplying it would be impossible that the work could be overtaken. With respect to the subject of the Motion, he could not help thinking that it had been presented in the strongest colours in which it was possible to do it; but if the hon. Member had wished to make out a case for the appointment of a Committee it might have been expected that he would have endeavoured to do so, not by stating certain eases which might occur, but by referring to cases of hardship which had actually happened. Last year, upon the Motion of the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down (Mr. Osborne Morgan), a suggestion was made that the Judges in Wales should be conferred with, as to whether it was wise or not to incur the expense of appointing official interpreters, not only at Assizes, Quarter Sessions, and County Courts, but in all inferior tribunals. In consequence of what took place then he (the Home Secretary) communicated with the County Court Judges, and there was only one of them who gave the slightest notion of such a thing being desirable, all the others being strongly against it. One said that he did not think that additional interpreters were needed, and that 1398 their appointment would cause quite a useless expense, for the Registrars and their clerks generally spoke Welsh fluently; while another stated that there was no difficulty whatever in obtaining a good interpreter when one was required, adding that in his opinion, to appoint paid interpreters would be a more waste of money, which might be better expended in another way. Therefore, he (the Home Secretary) did not think it desirable that the proposed Committee should be appointed. If the hon. Member would, in the course of the Session, or afterwards, call his attention to any real cases of hardship in Wales in connection with this matter, he should give it his best consideration and communicate with the Judges in the districts where such cases occurred, and, if any steps should be deemed necessary, communicate with the Lord Chancellor. Meantime, until much stronger grounds were laid before the House, he did not think that that was a matter for the appointment of a Committee, and he trusted the hon. and learned Member would not press the Motion.

§ MR. MORGAN LLOYD
said, under the circumstances, he wished to withdraw the Motion, and would take an early opportunity of conferring with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject.